I feel horrible for blaming Vista (and SageTV) for MY video issues

[mkanet]

Some of you might know that I have complained about SageTV not having smooth video under Vista for about a year now. I thought it would be highly unlikely that the problem might be caused by the hardware in my machine; mainly, because I bought a brand new HP that was pre-built, certified, and tested for Windows Vista Media Center... with all popular hardware (ie Nvidia, Video, Intel CPU, Creative Labs sound, etc)

After a year of numerous OS installs and trying many different display driver versions, I finally upgraded the display adapter that came with the machine (Nvidia Geforce 8500GT) to a Nvidia Geforce 8800GT. Immediately after the card swap, the video problem went away. Smooth as silk video.

I do feel bad for trying to put the blame on Vista and SageTV. They both work great; especially, now with Vista SP1.

Off toptic: The game Bioshock with directx 10 and all effects turned on at 1920x1080 on a big screen looks ridiculously good; even when compared to the same game on my xbox360. I've never seen a video game look that good.

[mikesm]

The 8800GT is a great card, but it has the same video engine in it as the 8500GT does. So I am very puzzled as to why its working so much better.

Did you upgrade the drivers etc...?

[mkanet]

It looks like the 8500GT I had must have had a very specific defect in it that didnt affect system stability. It only seems to affect things that required mpeg2 hardware acceleration... not even mpeg4 AVC hardware acceleration.

I've never seen a hardware issue this specific that didnt cause some kind of stability issue. My machine was rock solid back then; and (cross my fingers) seems to be rock solid so far.

I was already using the latest Nvidia drivers, so I didn't do anytning except for uninstall and reinstall.... very clean and quick upgrade did the trick...

Now, I can sit back and enjoy..

Originally Posted by mikesm

The 8800GT is a great card, but it has the same video engine in it as the 8500GT does. So I am very puzzled as to why its working so much better.

Did you upgrade the drivers etc...?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mikesm

The 8800GT is a great card, but it has the same video engine in it as the 8500GT does. So I am very puzzled as to why its working so much better.

Did you upgrade the drivers etc...?

It has the same decode engine, but I believe post-processing (deinterlacing, denoise, sharpenning, etc) is done in the shaders, and the 8800GT has a lot more shader power than the 8500GT.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by stanger89

It has the same decode engine, but I believe post-processing (deinterlacing, denoise, sharpenning, etc) is done in the shaders, and the 8800GT has a lot more shader power than the 8500GT.

Interesting, because if that's true, then HP and others should not be bundling the 8500GT with their HD media systems... With ATI cards, UVD does everything for h.264 and VC-1, but MPEG2 processing still runs in the shaders, at least for the older 2XXX line. I wonder if Nvidia did something similar.

I'm waiting on the new 8300 based nvidia motherboard to rebuild my client since it does HD audio over HDMI which none of the nvidia discrete cards can do. And hybrid SLI with an 8800GT would make a very potent dual use gaming/HTPC system.

If nvidia still has problems with decent HD playback on that platform (which is supposed to do 100% HD decode of MPEG2, VC1 and H.264), then I'm going to scrap it all and replace everything with an HD100...

[mkanet]

Mike, I have audio over my HDMI; even on my old 8500GT. I'm guessing there must be a specific advanced audio format you want via HDMI such as trueHD audio?

Originally Posted by mikesm

Interesting, because if that's true, then HP and others should not be bundling the 8500GT with their HD media systems... With ATI cards, UVD does everything for h.264 and VC-1, but MPEG2 processing still runs in the shaders, at least for the older 2XXX line. I wonder if Nvidia did something similar.

I'm waiting on the new 8300 based nvidia motherboard to rebuild my client since it does HD audio over HDMI which none of the nvidia discrete cards can do. And hybrid SLI with an 8800GT would make a very potent dual use gaming/HTPC system.

If nvidia still has problems with decent HD playback on that platform (which is supposed to do 100% HD decode of MPEG2, VC1 and H.264), then I'm going to scrap it all and replace everything with an HD100...

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by mkanet

Mike, I have audio over my HDMI; even on my old 8500GT. I'm guessing there must be a specific advanced audio format you want via HDMI such as trueHD audio?

Right. Multichannel high bit rate audio than can't be passed via SPDIF. The kind that is on BR and HD-DVD media. The HD100 can't do that, and if I am going to rebuild my client, I want it to be futureproofed on HD audio formats.

TrueHD isn't really supported by the 8300, but the player can decode TrueHD into HD LPCM, which works fine over the 8300's HDMI port.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Interesting, because if that's true, then HP and others should not be bundling the 8500GT with their HD media systems... With ATI cards, UVD does everything for h.264 and VC-1, but MPEG2 processing still runs in the shaders, at least for the older 2XXX line. I wonder if Nvidia did something similar.

Depends on the target really, H.264 and VC-1 shouldn't need any post processing, I don't really follow the H.264 threads, but the only H.264 that should be a problem for an 8500GT would be 1080i, and there aren't any sources* that are 1080i H.264 in the US, not that would work with a commercial media PC (Vista MC) anyway.

I'm waiting on the new 8300 based nvidia motherboard to rebuild my client since it does HD audio over HDMI which none of the nvidia discrete cards can do. And hybrid SLI with an 8800GT would make a very potent dual use gaming/HTPC system.

I need a BD player, and since they all suck in different ways, I've been debating if I should wait for something with real HDMI audio support or just buy something now. My SSP doesn't have HDMI audio, and it will be a while before I upgrade it to HDMI.

If nvidia still has problems with decent HD playback on that platform (which is supposed to do 100% HD decode of MPEG2, VC1 and H.264), then I'm going to scrap it all and replace everything with an HD100...

Unless you specifically need BD playback, just get an HD100.

Originally Posted by mkanet

Mike, I have audio over my HDMI; even on my old 8500GT. I'm guessing there must be a specific advanced audio format you want via HDMI such as trueHD audio?

I don't consider than HDMI audio, that's S/PDIF over an HDMI cable. The G35 is the only thing today that does true HDMI audio, true meaning multichannel LPCM.
Unless you specifically need BD playback, just get an HD100.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Depends on the target really, H.264 and VC-1 shouldn't need any post processing, I don't really follow the H.264 threads, but the only H.264 that should be a problem for an 8500GT would be 1080i, and there aren't any sources* that are 1080i H.264 in the US, not that would work with a commercial media PC (Vista MC) anyway.



I need a BD player, and since they all suck in different ways, I've been debating if I should wait for something with real HDMI audio support or just buy something now. My SSP doesn't have HDMI audio, and it will be a while before I upgrade it to HDMI.



Unless you specifically need BD playback, just get an HD100.



I don't consider than HDMI audio, that's S/PDIF over an HDMI cable. The G35 is the only thing today that does true HDMI audio, true meaning multichannel LPCM.
Unless you specifically need BD playback, just get an HD100.

Well, I have spare parts for everything except the motherboard, so it's really not that big a deal for me to build a new client around the 8300. And I would like the ability to play back ripped HD-DVD's (the MSFT HDDVD drive for $30 was too hard to say no too, and I have about 10 HDDVD's acquired very inexpensively). BR playback will be desired too, since we have a netflix subscription, and BR's come at the same price as DVD's...

My current receiver doesn't do HDMI, but I will likely upgrade to one that does this summer, so I would like to take advantage of HD audio outputs.

Eventually, if I can ever spare the cycles, it would be fun to fly FSX on the big screen and with the surround sound effects, etc...

But if playback and such isn't reliable and has issues, I will just bag the whole client thing and go with an HD100. I already have one extra that I am going to use to drive a HD panel in the kitchen through a HDMI over Cat5 extender, and it will sit in the same A/V rack, so I can switch it over to the my 8300 experiment fails. :-)

[mkanet]

Oh okay, yeah, I just use the audio that comes from my HDMI cable for the speakers builtin to my TV. I have a separate receiver for AC-3 audio. I'm guessing by the time I'm ready to get a new amp with "true" HDMI audio, PC's with true HDMI audio with TrueHD, etc. will be common as well.

If you get an 8300... let us know how it works out for you.

Originally Posted by mikesm

Right. Multichannel high bit rate audio than can't be passed via SPDIF. The kind that is on BR and HD-DVD media. The HD100 can't do that, and if I am going to rebuild my client, I want it to be futureproofed on HD audio formats.

TrueHD isn't really supported by the 8300, but the player can decode TrueHD into HD LPCM, which works fine over the 8300's HDMI port.

[srothwell]

mkanet,

What is the noise like coming off the 8800GT? I ended up putting in a ATI X1300 becuase it was fanless and I didn't want the typically whiny tiny fan noise off the graphic card to make the PC even louder in the living room.

For instance, in another PC, I have a 7600GT and it sounds like a small hairdryer when Windows Areo kicks in.

Stacy

[mkanet]

I dont hear the fan at all. Not even when I play a high res directx 10 game like Bioshock. I think the heatsink and fan for the card I bought is proprietary since this version of the card is overclocked VERY high at the factory... and warrantied for it to work this way. The heatsink takes up the entire card and the fan's diameter is as large as it can fit on the card... and appears to be slow spinning. This is all fits nicely into one slot:

http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?It...tent&task=view

Originally Posted by srothwell

mkanet,

What is the noise like coming off the 8800GT? I ended up putting in a ATI X1300 becuase it was fanless and I didn't want the typically whiny tiny fan noise off the graphic card to make the PC even louder in the living room.

For instance, in another PC, I have a 7600GT and it sounds like a small hairdryer when Windows Areo kicks in.

Stacy

[Humanzee]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I don't consider than HDMI audio, that's S/PDIF over an HDMI cable. The G35 is the only thing today that does true HDMI audio, true meaning multichannel LPCM.
Unless you specifically need BD playback, just get an HD100.

Ok so wait a second here. Is an HDMI connection capable of carrying more audio channels than an optical cable? My AVR is 7.1 and I have it hooked up to the HTPC via an optical cable. None of my source material is 7.1 that I know of. Are you saying that if I get a Blueray drive ill need to get a new video card that outputs HDMI with audio and an new AVR if I want all of that surround proccessing to work? Or can I just keep using my optical connection? My current AVR doesn't handle HDMI just DVI.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by Humanzee

Ok so wait a second here. Is an HDMI connection capable of carrying more audio channels than an optical cable? My AVR is 7.1 and I have it hooked up to the HTPC via an optical cable. None of my source material is 7.1 that I know of. Are you saying that if I get a Blueray drive ill need to get a new video card that outputs HDMI with audio and an new AVR if I want all of that surround proccessing to work? Or can I just keep using my optical connection? My current AVR doesn't handle HDMI just DVI.

Yes. SFDIF via optical or coax is not cable of carrying HD audio. Right now the only way to do that is to send it to a receiver capable of HDMI HD audio decode, and via a special video card that supports multichannel HD LPCM audio over HDMI (the Intel G35, G45, and Nvidia 8300 series IGP's will do this). Or you can get a high quality sound card that is capable of doing this, and feed it to a receiver via analog 5 or 7 channel input. But then you will need to make sure you have very high quality DAC's in the sound card, etc....

Otherwise you are missing out on all the neat HD audio quality of the new formats. SPDIF is too old to be able to carry HD audio.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Humanzee

Ok so wait a second here. Is an HDMI connection capable of carrying more audio channels than an optical cable?

Quite simply, yes. S/PDIF supports 2ch LPCM (at up to 24bit/96 or sometimes 192kHz depending on implementation), or bitstreams up to 1536kbps (DTS) or 640kbps (DD). DD and DTS are limited to 6.1. DD, DTS, and in rare circumstances WMA are the only bitstreams supported.

HDMI 1.0 supports up to 8ch LPCM (at up to 24bit/192kHz).
HDMI 1.1 added support for DVD-Audio (not sure if that's bitstreaming 5.1 MLP or something else).
HDMI 1.2 added support 8ch DSD (SACD).
HDMI 1.3 added support for bistreaming "HBR" codecs Dolby Digital Plus (lossy 7.1 up to 6Mbps), Dolby TrueHD (7.1 lossless), DTS-HD High Resolution Audio (lossy 7.1 up to 6Mbps), and DTS-HD Master Audio (7.1 lossless).

HDMI 1.3 is rather pointless because it doesn't add any functionality not available with HDMI 1.2, just some different options for where decoding happens and all the advanced features of Blu-ray require decoding be done in the player (so output would be LPCM) anyway.

Of course the # channel issue is really pointless because no movies are made with 7.1 soundtracks, they're 5.1 at the most, 6.1 and 7.1 soundtracks are remixes for the disc release.

My AVR is 7.1 and I have it hooked up to the HTPC via an optical cable. None of my source material is 7.1 that I know of. Are you saying that if I get a Blueray drive ill need to get a new video card that outputs HDMI with audio and an new AVR if I want all of that surround proccessing to work?

Blu-ray contains audio that is of higher quality than what S/PDIF is capable of carrying, if you want to retain a digital connection, and maximize the audio quality, you'll need to use HDMI.

Or can I just keep using my optical connection? My current AVR doesn't handle HDMI just DVI.

S/PDIF will work, but the player (or soundcard/motherboard) will have to convert the multichannel PCM or HBR audio on the Blu-ray Disc to DD or DTS to transmit it to your AVR. That conversion is not lossless (how audible the loss is, is of course up for interpretation).

[Humanzee]

So I checked my pre pro and it does have 7.1 analog inputs so all is not totally lost. I guess I can get one of those high end sound cards per mikesm's suggestion. I'd been waiting for a decade to get a new AVR till I could afford one that wouldn't be too much a compromise. Now this You don't suppose there would be a stand alone hdmi audio decoder that would pass on the video but split out the audio into 7.1 channel analog. I guess thats whay a new pre pro would be for.

This piece (Outlaw 990) does have a USB input that can be used for audio, you don't suppose that it could ........

[stanger89]

Depends on the input, sometimes the USB is only stereo, sometimes it's full multichannel.

[Humanzee]

Dang, the manual says its for Stereo only, in fact "if you attempt to play a dolby digital or dts soundtrack, it may produce a loud noise that could damage your speakers, or your hearing"

Looks like I will be running simulated 7 channel for a while. Does the HD100 have 7.1 analog outputs?

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by Humanzee

Dang, the manual says its for Stereo only, in fact "if you attempt to play a dolby digital or dts soundtrack, it may produce a loud noise that could damage your speakers, or your hearing"

Looks like I will be running simulated 7 channel for a while. Does the HD100 have 7.1 analog outputs?

Nope. The HD100 can only do SPDIF quality out. If you want to feed 7.1 HD audio to your AVR via the 7.1 inputs, you'll need a full client, and a sound card that has the proper drivers to support HD audio decoding without the player doing downsampling. That may mean Vista is required depending on the player.

[Humanzee]

this thread is totally off topic now, This AVR is hooked up to my vista client anyway. Incidentally my mother board has a realtek HD audio adapter on it with 8 channels. I doubt that it has very good quality DAC's being OEM but it might be worth a try. How do I know what drivers to look for re: avoiding downsampling?