Recommendations for Setup

[deadend5001]

Hey guys,

I've been browsing around now for a few days, and SageTV seems like a pretty comprehensive package for what my wife and I are looking for.

Right now we're trying to digitalize our DVD collection (hate those DVD cases laying around in the living room), record our favorite shows, and watch TV.

We have comcast standard digital TV (no HD) and 4 TV's in the house.

I was wondering if I could get some help on setup specs. I know I will need a server, and 4 of the HD media extenders. I'm probably going to setup about 3 TB of storage for all of our movies, and it looks like I'll need at least 4 dual TV tuners. Any help and/or recommendations is much appreciated.

Thanks!

[HawgGuy]

Sounds reasonable. 4 tuners sounds like a lot - that means you're building for the worst-case scenario where all TV's are on at the same time, watching different stations on live TV. I'd start with 2 if I were you - maybe one or two PVR-500 cards with two tuners per card. Make sure the TV locations are wired for ethernet. I'd start off slow and grow the system, but otherwise your plan sounds good.

[BFisher]

Your requirements are realistic... look around there are several threads about servers here. In general you need a good server with lots of hard drive space (I have 2 TB which is plenty for 100+ DVDs and a couple hundred hours of TV (mixed SD/HD).

I recommend a headless server (your PC does not connect to a TV directly). Instead just put HD extenders and MVPs at each of your TVs (run via Cat5).

Regarding tuners - I believe you need a minimum of 1 tuner per TV, probably more depending on how often you record. I have 5 and wouldn't mind 1 or 2 more.

Why so many? Well, sometimes we are recording 2, 3, even 4 things (2 kids plus 2 adults). And I almost always want at least 1 tuner available for babysitter/in-laws/visitors so they can watch what they want live like they are used to.

good luck - it's a great solution

[ybrew]

Originally Posted by BFisher

Regarding tuners - I believe you need a minimum of 1 tuner per TV, probably more depending on how often you record. I have 5 and wouldn't mind 1 or 2 more.

Why so many? Well, sometimes we are recording 2, 3, even 4 things (2 kids plus 2 adults). And I almost always want at least 1 tuner available for babysitter/in-laws/visitors so they can watch what they want live like they are used to.

good luck - it's a great solution

You only need 1 tuner to setup sage. You can have multiple tvs/extenders connected. I have 10 tuners. I think I started with 2 and kept adding more and more. Now I have 6 SD and 4 HD tuners (3 dual internal cards and 2 dual external tuners.

I will occassionally have 5 or 6 things recording at once. Becuase of my mix, I still occassionally get conflicts (that's going away this week, since i'm adding 1 additional Directv tuner. My conflicts are only with some of my kids shows - cartoons that repeat several times a day.

I've got about 2 1/2 TB of storage. 1 1/2TB dedicated to TV (that's NOT enough!) and 2 external hard drives with movies, ripped DVDs, pics and music (165gb of MP3s or 35K songs). I stopped ripping DVDs because they take a lot of disk space and it's just too painful a process for movies I'll watch one time. I mainly just rip my sons movies now. I will eventually get netflix on-demand, appleTV or Vudu to handle my movie needs.

[ybrew]

Originally Posted by deadend5001

Hey guys,

I've been browsing around now for a few days, and SageTV seems like a pretty comprehensive package for what my wife and I are looking for.

Right now we're trying to digitalize our DVD collection (hate those DVD cases laying around in the living room), record our favorite shows, and watch TV.

We have comcast standard digital TV (no HD) and 4 TV's in the house.

I was wondering if I could get some help on setup specs. I know I will need a server, and 4 of the HD media extenders. I'm probably going to setup about 3 TB of storage for all of our movies, and it looks like I'll need at least 4 dual TV tuners. Any help and/or recommendations is much appreciated.

Thanks!

I concur with the headless server.

My specs to give you an idea:
e6600, 2 gig ram, 2 1/2 tb total storage (not enough!), intel mobo, onboard audio, video, ethernet.

I chose intel board for stability. I also picked a board with as many pci slots as possible (for my dual tuner hauppauge 500s). Getting a board with 3 (or more) pci slots is difficult these days. I would have considered a Dell box but couldn't find any with enough pci slots.

My system is plenty fast for recording 2 or 3 HD streams, playing them back and running commskip. I don't transcode to mobile formats very often, but may start soon (not that the latest beta supposedly supports .wmv) and I'm sure my processor is plenty fast for that.

I'd say greater than 90% of the (windows) folks run WinXP as the Sage Server OS. Vista works, but there's some extra steps you have to take. Vista may be a lot better once SP1 is released, but XP works just fine and since sage is headless, there's no need for that Aero desktop or any other Vista additions (IMO).

Besides my hauppauge 500s, i've got an HD Homerun and two bluebird USB HD tuners. When the hauppauge component capture device is released, i'll get 2 or 3 of those. I'll most likely get rid of 1 or 2 of the internal 500 cards at that time.

So recommendation is get a fast processor, a stable motherboard with room for expandability, run win xp, get a ton of disk space (and a case and motherboard that allow for expandability (my board has 6 onboard sata connections - 4 currently in use). You can add tuners as needed.
If you're going digital cable or directv, get a USB-UIRT to control your set top boxes (one usb-uirt can control up to 3 set-top boxes, search these forums for info on setting that up).

[deadend5001]

I wired the whole house CAT6 just last weekend. 4 plugs per bedroom, and 4 near the 61 inch TV in the living room.

What about video cards on the server? When I was looking at building a Windows MCE pc, I remembered that I needed at least an NVidia 8600 GT for smooth HD playback. Does Sage require the same?

Also, I have a spare copy of Windows 2003 Standard Edition kicking around. Is that good enough? I've seen some people say to just use XP because it's sufficient.

Also how do the digital tuners work? Am I going to need a cable card for my comcast? I'm in the Dover Delaware area (near Baltimore) and would hate to purchase everything only to find out I need a cable card and SageTV can't do what I need.

Also what's the difference between the media extender and the MVP? I can't seem to find one...

I was planning on 3TB at first in a RAID 5 array. Was going to use Samsung 750gb drives. The tower I'm looking at can hold 15 hard drives with bay converters.

Thanks for the help so far...lots of good advice keep it coming!

[ybrew]

Originally Posted by deadend5001

I wired the whole house CAT6 just last weekend. 4 plugs per bedroom, and 4 near the 61 inch TV in the living room.

What about video cards on the server? When I was looking at building a Windows MCE pc, I remembered that I needed at least an NVidia 8600 GT for smooth HD playback. Does Sage require the same?

Also, I have a spare copy of Windows 2003 Standard Edition kicking around. Is that good enough? I've seen some people say to just use XP because it's sufficient.

Also how do the digital tuners work? Am I going to need a cable card for my comcast? I'm in the Dover Delaware area (near Baltimore) and would hate to purchase everything only to find out I need a cable card and SageTV can't do what I need.

Also what's the difference between the media extender and the MVP? I can't seem to find one...

I was planning on 3TB at first in a RAID 5 array. Was going to use Samsung 750gb drives. The tower I'm looking at can hold 15 hard drives with bay converters.

Thanks for the help so far...lots of good advice keep it coming!

You'll be happier with a headless server (Use onboard video to setup the OS and do any maintenance on the box) and an HD or SD extenders at your TVs.

SageTV can't use cable cards. AFAIK, you need a windows media pc to use them.

Right now the options for HD are OTA HD or an R5000 mod (expensive!!!). Better options are coming (see http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29780 for more info).

The media extender is the MVP. That sells for about $109 and has composite and s-video outs. There's also an HD extender that has HDMI & component out as well as the composite and s-video. That box costs $199. If you have HD TVs, get the HD extenders. If you only have standard def TVs, you still might want HD extenders, but you could get by with sd extenders if you needed to save money.

[davephan]

Setting up a SageTV server with 3 TB of diskspace sounds like it might be enough disk space, depending on how many DVDs you have. I have about 1.5 TB of disk space, and it isn't enough. I started to rip DVDs so I can store them in MPEG2 format. I compress some of them into Xvid AVI to 20% of the original size.

I also have about 100 VHS tapes I plan to put on the SageTV server. It is harder to playback the VHS tape and record onto the computer, since the line audio level from the VHS is too high and does not match the line input level of my PVR-350 video card. I lower the audio level of the VHS VCR with an old equalizer, and adjust the level by ear.

You should setup you hard drives with RAID 5 to help protect your video content and use disk imaging software to take periodic images of your C drive. You'll be more dependent on you SageTV server for media content. If and when the computer fails, restoring the SageTV computer to a known working state will be very easy and quick with disk imaging.


Dave

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by ybrew

You only need 1 tuner to setup sage.

Actually, there is a "dummy" tuner setup on the forums somewhere to let you bypass that.

B

[deadend5001]

Any comments on using Windows 2003 for the server? I have read some good and bad stories of people using Windows Home Server...and I just happen to have a 2003 standard key kicking around.

[rlvogel322]

Originally Posted by deadend5001

Any comments on using Windows 2003 for the server? I have read some good and bad stories of people using Windows Home Server...and I just happen to have a 2003 standard key kicking around.

If your plan is to go headless, I wouldn't think you would have any issues with 2003. Give it a try and see how it goes.

[electronics4lif]

Originally Posted by ybrew

Getting a board with 3 (or more) pci slots is difficult these days. I would have considered a Dell box but couldn't find any with enough pci slots.

I am having trouble finding a good board with lots of pci slots. My current outdated server has 5 pci slots with 4 of them being used. Any good current motherboards with at least 4 pci slots?

[waynedunham]

Originally Posted by electronics4lif

I am having trouble finding a good board with lots of pci slots. My current outdated server has 5 pci slots with 4 of them being used. Any good current motherboards with at least 4 pci slots?

Heck, I'd be happy with one with 3 *USEABLE* PCI slots. It seems that every time I see one that looks like it might fit the bill I pull up the pictures and there are those !#%Y^W#^@^% Capacitors/connectors/surface mounts cluttering up the area between the PCI slot and the edge of the board. Fine for a lot of PCI cards, but the ones I'm using have external connections that go just about to board level so that just about anything on the mobo between the pci slot and the board edge won't allow the card to be installed.

Granted, by next spring I'll probably need to look at replacing those PVR 500's with something digital but I'd like to use them at least until then. Even after I might use them to record non HD stuff from an STB via the inputs.

[ltitran]

You could build a passive backplane system - More PCIs you can shake a stick with, but the systems are more expensive...

LT

[Ian]

I am a newb too, trying to design my system. I figured this thread might be a good place to ask a couple of questions since it's got great general info in it (sorry to hijack I hope this info helps the OP and others).

I live out in the country so cable is not an option.
I plan on using HD satellite STBs.
Q1: Do I need a STB for each tuner?
Q1a: I think satellite STBs only output/tune one channel at a time if they're not DVRs right?

I would like to be able to put in 4 tuners (so 4 STBs?) so I can record up to 4 shows at once (twice as much as what a DirecTV HD DVR does). That should be a more than adequate start.
I'm in the middle of building the house so I've already got it pre-wired for ethernet to all of the places I'll have media extenders. Worst-case I'll have 8 extenders. Drywall is not up yet though so now is a good time to make any changes.

Q2: If I don't spring for HD extenders in each location and want to have some locations in SD, does that put more stress on the server such that it needs more horsepower? I think I read the Hauppage MVP needs the server to encode MPEG-2 for it to read. Is that the case for the Sage SD extender?

Q3: If I have, say 4 HD extenders and 4 SD extenders would a quad-core processor and 2GB RAM be sufficient overkill assuming a headless server? I really want to overkill it by enough margin that I don't have any server issues or reduce the life of it because I'm overcooking the CPU 24/7.

I plan on using the new Hauppage HD encoders or equivalent (please please please ship them already!) and maybe an HD homerun for OTA HD.

Q4: Is there any kind of consensus on DirecTV versus Dish? (Is there a good thread with these arguments or would it not really matter in my case?) I'm leaning toward DirecTV.

If necessary I can start my own thread with these Qs but this thread already has some good related info. Thanks folks, this forum is very knowledgeable and helpful.

Ian

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by Ian

Q1: Do I need a STB for each tuner?

Q1a: I think satellite STBs only output/tune one channel at a time if they're not DVRs right?

1. Yes.
1a Yes.

Q2: If I don't spring for HD extenders in each location and want to have some locations in SD, does that put more stress on the server such that it needs more horsepower? I think I read the Hauppage MVP needs the server to encode MPEG-2 for it to read. Is that the case for the Sage SD extender?

Yes, each SD extender requires the server to transcode video going to it. The HD extenders don't have to transcode, so there's a lot less strain on the server: it's just shoveling bits from the disk to the NIC. I opted for all HD extenders, but I'm not buying as many as you are.

Q3: If I have, say 4 HD extenders and 4 SD extenders would a quad-core processor and 2GB RAM be sufficient overkill assuming a headless server? I really want to overkill it by enough margin that I don't have any server issues or reduce the life of it because I'm overcooking the CPU 24/7.

Not sure. Might get ugly if you have all 4 SD extenders going, plus 4 recordings, and comskip/SA, or a transcode process running. If you're concerned you might want to consider going all HD extenders. All your recorded material is going to be h.264 and that's probably going to be rough on the CPU trying to transcode multiples at once. If you're never going to watch more than one or two simultaneously then I wouldn't worry about it.

Q4: Is there any kind of consensus on DirecTV versus Dish? (Is there a good thread with these arguments or would it not really matter in my case?) I'm leaning toward DirecTV.

No, not really a consesus. I'm not sure if there's already a thread, but here's how I see the differences between them:

• The only thing that's definitive is that the R5000 solution is far better with Dish since it can't do MPEG4 with Direct.
• Direct has more HD now, but it won't matter by the end of the year if not sooner.
• You'll probably have a much cheaper bill with Direct - I hear they don't charge you for each extra receiver like Dish does, and I think their HD package is $10/month cheaper.
• Allegedly Dish has better resolution, particularly for SD, but I'm not 100% sure that's still true, and I doubt it's easy to spot if it is true.
• Dish receivers do not do native passthrough, so it could be problematic with the hauppage - all your content would be upconverted to HD res before being captured, even the SD channels. I think Direct can do native passthrough, but I don't know if the hauppage will handle it well or not. It could take a ton of disk space if you're not doing native-mode and you have all hauppages.

Direct is probably the better option right now for cost & current HD offering reasons.

Having said that, I opted for Dish over Direct. I decided to go for the R5000 over the hauppage, so there was no contest between the two.

If necessary I can start my own thread with these Qs but this thread already has some good related info. Thanks folks, this forum is very knowledgeable and helpful.

Ian

Hopefully somebody else can chime in too. I'm still pretty new, so don't take what I say about Sage as gospel. I think it's right, but I've been wrong before...

[davephan]

Deadend5001 and Ian,

You should make sure to get a fast CPU to make sure your SageTV computer can handle the load if you are going to scale up your SageTV system to four tuners and four video streams. A fast dual-core or fast quad-core would be the place to start. If I were setting up a larger SageTV system, and I did not already have a fast dual-core, I would start with a fast quad-core to make sure that the system can handle the load, and to make sure that the system CPU does not have to be upgraded for years.

If you might consider multiple network cards on your SageTV server to split the network traffic on your network.

You an start with one tuner and scale up later, but it is much better to have more tuners to avoid contention. I get a lot of programming contention with one tuner, and will be adding two tuners soon with an HDHomerun.

You should start with 2 gigs RAM. Several years ago, my old Athlon XP2800 SageTV server had 512 meg RAM and it was constantly caching to disk. I doubled the RAM to 1 gig, and it ran much better. My new SageTV server has 2 gigs, and it normally is consuming about 1 gig RAM all the time.

The Abit IP-35 Pro is a great mobo, if you are buying a new system.

Make sure you buy a disk imaging product from the start. You can then take images as you build up your system. Then you won't have to start the build process over from scratch or re-build your system later if there are problems. I take a C drive image periodically and before every SageTV version upgrade. If there are problems, I can easily and quickly recover the SageTV computer to a 'working' state. I store my images on a normally detached USB portable hard drive. If your family becomes dependent on your SageTV computer working all the time, you need to have a recovery plan to avoid unhappy SageTV viewers if and/or when the SageTV computer fails.


Dave

[toricred]

One advantage of DirecTV over Dish is that the DTV receivers can be controlled over serial ports. The Dish receivers can't. By the way, DTV does charge a $5 mirroring fee for each receiver after the first.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by toricred

By the way, DTV does charge a $5 mirroring fee for each receiver after the first.

Interesting. Maybe it was the DVR fee I saw somebody talking about. <shrug>

With the IR Blaster built-in to the Hauppage product, does the direct serial control matter much anymore? How flaky is IR?

Cheers,
Slipshod

[toricred]

I've used both an IR blaster and serial control. Serial control is much more reliable. I'll never go back to IR blasting again.

You are right that there is only one DVR fee.