Significant Other wants "true" HDTV quality recording

[wtsitmn]

There's just no pleasing some people. The S.O. would like a true HD quality recording, not just the best DVD quality. So, is this currently doable? If what I recently learned is correct, true OTA HD is around double the bitrate of standard DVD. So the extra data is being discarded by either the tuner and/or the PVR software for the sake of saving disk space. Or am I missing something?

My feeling is that the current recorded DVD-quality image is great. Her argument is that if standard DVD is so great, what's all the fuss over the new high definition DVD standard? Yes, I know this is a bit like mixing apples and coconuts. But seeing the great quality of recorded OTA HD made me wonder if standard DVD's could look a lot better if the makers of DVD's really wanted to.

Back to the subject at hand. Anyone care to weigh in on recorded HD quality? Are there any good technical reasons why HD-quality recordings aren't available, besides needing hundreds and hundreds of gigabytes?

Inquiring minds want to know...

[GKusnick]

Recording quality is an SD encoder setting. If you're recording an HD source, it's already digitized and doesn't need encoding. It just records the bitstream as it comes off the air. And there wouldn't be a whole lot of point encoding SD content at HD bitrates, since it still wouldn't look any better than the SD source. So that's why there's no HD recording quality setting: because it's overkill for SD and irrelevant for HD.

[salsbst]

You only get HD quality if you record an HD stream without rendering it first. In other words, you need to record an HD stream, either through firewire or an HD recording card such a Fusion.

[wtsitmn]

I'm using an HD tuner, but the best Sage will do is record it in standard DVD quality. HD tuner cards list as a "feature" that they convert HD to standard DVD quality (presumably lowering the bitrate from ~18 megabits to DVD quality, which is around 9-10).

Anyway, the SO and her eagle eyes noticed the difference between using the HDTV's OTA tuner and what's shown played back at the highest quality Sage provides. So I guess I'm wondering if this is a Sage feature/limitation, or an HD tuner card feature/limitation, or both.

I aploogize for not being more clear in my original post.

[bmcraig]

Interesting. I did not know this-- do I understand that Sage's HD OTA recordings will not be recording in true HD best signal, but at a quality more like DVD?

Brent

Originally Posted by wtsitmn

I'm using an HD tuner, but the best Sage will do is record it in standard DVD quality. HD tuner cards list as a "feature" that they convert HD to standard DVD quality (presumably lowering the bitrate from ~18 megabits to DVD quality, which is around 9-10).

Anyway, the SO and her eagle eyes noticed the difference between using the HDTV's OTA tuner and what's shown played back at the highest quality Sage provides. So I guess I'm wondering if this is a Sage feature/limitation, or an HD tuner card feature/limitation, or both.

I aploogize for not being more clear in my original post.

[wtsitmn]

Originally Posted by bmcraig

Interesting. I did not know this-- do I understand that Sage's HD OTA recordings will not be recording in true HD best signal, but at a quality more like DVD?

Brent

Yes, but the picture is great anyway. IMHO, much better than conventional DVD's. Which is what got me to wondering why DVD movies aren't better quality. But that's another issue.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by wtsitmn

I'm using an HD tuner, but the best Sage will do is record it in standard DVD quality. HD tuner cards list as a "feature" that they convert HD to standard DVD quality (presumably lowering the bitrate from ~18 megabits to DVD quality, which is around 9-10).

Anyway, the SO and her eagle eyes noticed the difference between using the HDTV's OTA tuner and what's shown played back at the highest quality Sage provides. So I guess I'm wondering if this is a Sage feature/limitation, or an HD tuner card feature/limitation, or both.

I aploogize for not being more clear in my original post.

The HD card does not use any of the Sage settings for quality if you're using an HD tuner. It is just writing the stream to the hard drive. You should be able to tell by looking at the file size that for a 1 hour recording it should be in the neighborhood of 6-8 GB in size. Make sure you're using a decoder that supports the higher HD resolution and stream.

Gerry

[aperry]

Originally Posted by gplasky

The HD card does not use any of the Sage settings for quality if you're using an HD tuner. It is just writing the stream to the hard drive. You should be able to tell by looking at the file size that for a 1 hour recording it should be in the neighborhood of 6-8 GB in size. Make sure you're using a decoder that supports the higher HD resolution and stream.

For what it's worth, this file size is approx what I see recording HD over firewire from my cable box too.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by bmcraig

do I understand that Sage's HD OTA recordings will not be recording in true HD best signal, but at a quality more like DVD?

It depends on your hookup. If you're using a USB or PCI HD tuner, you should be able to capture the raw data stream to disk at full HD quality.

If you're connecting an HD STB to your PC by S-video or composite, then naturally the best you're going to get is a DVD-quality recording of that SD-quality signal, because that's all those analog connections are capable of.

If you're not getting the quality you think you should be getting, post the specifics of your setup and people might be able to give you specific advice on how to fix it.

[salsbst]

Warning... it appears that two users are in the process of convincing themselves that Sage downgrades HD to lower bitrates. This does not happen. Please, folks, if you read this thread, run away from it quickly.

wtsitmn, while it is possible that you own a PCI card that tunes high definition signals, and then decodes them, then reencodes them at a lower bitrate in order to make them DVD-quality, that would be the silliest thing a designer of a PCI card could possibly do. What is the name of this card?

[teknubic]

There's also no point in recording HD if you can't display it. If you own a standard-definition television, anything looks mediocre. Drop a few grand for a display capable of 1080i and you'll see what they mean. I have a front projector capable of 720p and it's impressive but HD on my 21" CRT is _amazing_.
EDIT: woa, 7 posts from when i clicked 'reply' to 'post'. sorry so late

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by wtsitmn

I'm using an HD tuner, but the best Sage will do is record it in standard DVD quality. HD tuner cards list as a "feature" that they convert HD to standard DVD quality (presumably lowering the bitrate from ~18 megabits to DVD quality, which is around 9-10).

I know I'm just repeating what has been posted, but SageTV is not re-encoding the OTA HD signal down to some SD resolution/recording quality when you are using an OTA HD tuner card. If you happen to be using the svideo-out of some converter box, then you are not recording HD in the first place.

I'm not sure where you saw that is was a ""feature" that they convert HD to standard DVD quality", but like the others have been saying: it is most likely a decoder issue if you are actually recording an HD signal.

Edit: now that I'm done typing, I guess this is even more repetitious.

- Andy

[bmcraig]

Thanks. That helped.

Brent

Originally Posted by GKusnick

It depends on your hookup. If you're using a USB or PCI HD tuner, you should be able to capture the raw data stream to disk at full HD quality.

If you're connecting an HD STB to your PC by S-video or composite, then naturally the best you're going to get is a DVD-quality recording of that SD-quality signal, because that's all those analog connections are capable of.

If you're not getting the quality you think you should be getting, post the specifics of your setup and people might be able to give you specific advice on how to fix it.

[wtsitmn]

Originally Posted by salsbst

Warning... it appears that two users are in the process of convincing themselves that Sage downgrades HD to lower bitrates. This does not happen. Please, folks, if you read this thread, run away from it quickly.

wtsitmn, while it is possible that you own a PCI card that tunes high definition signals, and then decodes them, then reencodes them at a lower bitrate in order to make them DVD-quality, that would be the silliest thing a designer of a PCI card could possibly do. What is the name of this card?

Okay wise guy. Tell me what setting your Sage is set to record in. Mine does not go past DVD quality. Are you using a different version of Sage than the rest of us mere mortals?

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by wtsitmn

Tell me what setting your Sage is set to record in. Mine does not go past DVD quality.

Nobody's does. Once again, those quality settings apply only to analog SD encoders. DVD quality is the best you can do with SD, so that's why those settings don't go any higher.

True HD sources are already in digital form, do not require encoding, and therefore ignore the Sage quality settings during recording. Sage just copies the bits to your hard disk at whatever quality level the HD source delivers. This is, of course, assuming that you have a digital connection (PCI, USB, or FireWire) between the source and Sage.

[wtsitmn]

Originally Posted by Opus4

I know I'm just repeating what has been posted, but SageTV is not re-encoding the OTA HD signal down to some SD resolution/recording quality when you are using an OTA HD tuner card. If you happen to be using the svideo-out of some converter box, then you are not recording HD in the first place.

I'm not sure where you saw that is was a ""feature" that they convert HD to standard DVD quality", but like the others have been saying: it is most likely a decoder issue if you are actually recording an HD signal.

Edit: now that I'm done typing, I guess this is even more repetitious.

- Andy

Andy, please re-read my original post. I didn't say Sage lowered the bitrate, I questioned whether it did, or if the tuner did. Something is lowering it. I suspect it's the tuner. However, the current version of Sage has no setting to record at a higher bitrate even if the tuner provides it. The highest Sage goes to is "DVD Standard Play--3.2GB/hr", which isn't true HD quality.

But even after saying all that, if the tuner sent Sage full HD, and Sage recorded full HD, that doesn't mean there is necessarily a decoder available which would produce true HD. This whole thing is only as good as the weakest link. It appears to me that at this moment in time, they're all weak links!

[Opus4]

wtsitmn: I read your posts, but you aren't listening to what is being said...

1) If you are recording via an OTA HD tuner card, it is simply storing the HD transmission. There is no re-encoding going on at all. The Default recording quality setting has no effect on a digital tuner; that is only for an analog SD encoder.

2) For analog SD tuners: I don't remember how the list of recording rates is sorted (if at all), but DVD Standard is not the highest; Max Quality at 5.9 GB/hr is the highest. But, this has no effect on your HD digital tuner.

The others are suggesting that you either need a different decoder that can handle HD video, or you need a connection to your TV that can actually provide an HD quality image to the TV instead of something like svideo.

I may have missed this part, but I don't think you've mentioned how your SageTV PC is connected to your TV.

- Andy

[Morgan111]

Originally Posted by wtsitmn

Andy, please re-read my original post. I didn't say Sage lowered the bitrate, I questioned whether it did, or if the tuner did. Something is lowering it. I suspect it's the tuner. However, the current version of Sage has no setting to record at a higher bitrate even if the tuner provides it. The highest Sage goes to is "DVD Standard Play--3.2GB/hr", which isn't true HD quality.

But even after saying all that, if the tuner sent Sage full HD, and Sage recorded full HD, that doesn't mean there is necessarily a decoder available which would produce true HD. This whole thing is only as good as the weakest link. It appears to me that at this moment in time, they're all weak links!

wtsim, What HD tuner card are you using? To re-encode a received HD stream as you receive would take a lot of CPU time (but Sage does not re-encode HD). Are you using up lots of CPU time when recording an HD channel?

[AndyS]

wtsitmn - to avoid further confusion can you tell us what your system is please - what hardware, how it's connected etc. I'm guessing that you're recording the output from an STB, right? Depending on how it's connected to Sage you may not actually be recording an HD stream - it may be an SD stream that the STB has down-converted.

What people are talking about here is an HD-capable card that sits in your server and can take the digital feed that your antenna recieves, and dumps it directly to disk with no modifications.

Two different things. Can you elaborate on your configuration please?

Andy.

[salsbst]

Originally Posted by wtsitmn

Okay wise guy. Tell me what setting your Sage is set to record in. Mine does not go past DVD quality. Are you using a different version of Sage than the rest of us mere mortals?

I was attempting to point out that two novice users were had made what seemed to be an erroneous conclusion and were stating it as fact. I apologize if my wording came across as offensive. I may have gotten carried away in my zeal to call out what seems like misinformation being touted as fact.