TV output quality.. opinions?

[zombie10k]

hi all. I have PVR-250 that I have been testing out MCE and SageTV with. I am using a Gainward Geforce 440 MX card with S-video out.

I have tried the Nvidia codec, Intervideo, and Sonic codecs. I am very disappointed about the quality of the video. Even with various bright/contrast settings, etc, I don't think it comes close to my TIVO which to me, has no apparent mpeg 'noise' or artifacting.

I am viewing on a 50" Toshiba bigscreen, about 2 years old. Nothing fancy. I think there is much more noticable Mpeg artifacting than the TIVO. My processor never goes over 45-50%, it's not skipping or anything like that, it just doesn't look very good.

In various areas of light and dark, I notice the mpeg 'noise'. I have my cable split off (1 to tivo, 1 to SageTV/MCE PC), and using video 1/2 to compare.

I thought it could be the codecs, but I tried all 3 popular codecs. I tried adjusting various color/bright/contrast levels. I know I am relatively picky, but even my wife was commenting on the decreased picture quality.

I see alot of arguments about which video card has the best output. Is there *REALLY* a difference between a 440MX, ATI card, or newer 5200? I am not certain how this could be related or make such a drastic difference in what I am seeing on the TV.

Any opinions would be appreciated.

[pawn]

What MPEG-2 bit rate are you using?

I use the 2 GB/hr setting and I have no complaints on my 55" set.

If it really matters, try the 3.2 GB/hr setting.

What's more, I have a very poor cable signal in my area, and I'd go further and say the quality is better than live TV.

[mlbdude]

The video output will not affect things the items you describe. It will affect clarity of the picture overall but not the MPEG2 artifacts.

I find that even at 3 GB per hour I can see some artifacts with my 250's. I never used to see these with my Creative DVCR at 2GB per hour. After watching closely I think it has something to do with the VBR setting the SageTV is using (I think Jeff disables VBR for the Creative card). Since I only notice artifacts for a few seconds when a fast motion scene starts (not for the whole scene just the beginning) I believe what I am seeing is the driver increasing the bitrate frame by frame until it hits its maximum bitrate or the source and dest images are within spec. You may want to try and create a custom encoding bitrate without VBR. Once I get a larger HD I will try this out myself.

[Ralphjb]

I primarily use SageTV on our 42" Plasma and the image quality is outstanding. I have seen TIVO and ReplayTV units and I think SageTV is the equal of these. My computer is a Dell 2350 (Celeron 2.2mhz processor). I am running Windows 2000 Pro, utilizing the motherboard video and have the Hauppauge PVR250. I record at the 2gig/hour rate.

[sshapiro63]

If I'm not mistaken, the MX 440 S-Video ouput is crap. Try a different video card based on the Nvidia FX 5200. I tried using a Shuttle XPC with SageTV and it looked terrible on my TV. I believe the XPC has an integrated MX 440/S-Video output.

You should find the display quality much better if you take the MX 440 out of the "picture". The FX 5200 is outstanding for S-Video output.

[mlbdude]

Just keep in mind that a new video card will not fix your MPEG2 "mpeg 'noise' or artifacting". In fact it will make it seem worse as the artifacts become easier to see. It should help with clarity overall though. nVidia is not known for good TV out. Users are reporting better success with the newer cards though.

[Watter]

I too was sorely disappointed with the picture quality when I first moved over from Tivo to SageTV (using PVR350 and Radeon 9500 Svideo out). I did the same thing you did, switching back and forth between video inputs comparing Tivo to Sage.

If I recall correctly I tried a few things:

-Different decoders: there are several good ones out there.

-Somewhere on these forums there is a thread where somone posted a couple of registry entries which improved the picture quality of the standard Hauppauge Intervideo decoders. The difference was noticible.

-Updated drivers either from Hauppauge or the shspvr site (I'm sorry, I don't recall which and I'm not at home to check)

In the end, I have pretty good picture quality. For standard TV viewing, it's better than my Tivo was, but for sports and other high movement items, it's a bit worse. That said, even the Tivo quality wasn't that great for sports and such. I usually switched to a live feed for those events anyway.

-Watter

[pawn]

I strongly recommend the following (and BTW, I too was dissapointed with the video quality at first, until I took these steps):

1. Use the Intervideo NonCSS decoders (video & audio) that came with your PVR250 (I assume you have this card).

2. Set the registry tweaks mentioned here (your video card must support the hardware acceleration involved):

http://www.freytechnologies.com/for...&highlight=dxva

3. Use the 2.0 GB/hr setting in Sage.

4. Tweak the Video Proc Amp settings under "Video Capture Settings (Advanced): I use the following:

Brightness 126
Contrast 66
Hue 0
Saturation 65
Sharpness 1

I think the Brightness & Saturation settings are absolutely critical and I'm sure the optimum level of all of these settings will change for any given system.

Careful, these settings seem to slip back to default from time to time (you can permanently change the defaults under HKLM\Software\Hauppage somewhere).

I should also mention I output directly from my video port to a transcoder, then to the HD inputs on my television, which will give a much superior picture than Svideo (let's see TiVo do that).

[shodge]

Well, I'll throw in my vote for the 5200. It did improve my output over my old ATI card [I do not have a new ATI card I can compare to].

Pawn: you link did not come through, and I'm sure several of us are interested in the tweeks...

-Stan

[pawn]

Originally posted by shodge
Pawn: you link did not come through, and I'm sure several of us are interested in the tweeks...

Oops.

Here's the pertinent info (originally posted by the creator of SageTV himself):

--BEGIN QUOTE--

I'd highly recommend trying this if you have the Hauppauge hardware; I'd also like to hear results. The only requirement is that your video card has some sort of MPEG2 acceleration. Nearly all of them do now.

Just change these registry settings to 1 while SageTV is asleep or you're not watching video in SageRecorder, or they both are shutdown:

HKLM\Software\Intervideo\Custom\Hauppauge\VideoDec\Dxva
HKLM\Software\Intervideo\Custom\Hauppauge\VideoDec\Hwmc

--END QUOTE--

[mlbdude]

Hey NarFlex,

Can you again comment on how you handle VBR and CBR with and without a Creative DVCR installed? I am a bit curious cuase my friend has the DVCR installed and I don't notice the macroblocking as much. I would like to do whatever I can to decrease these artifacts even if it means giving up VBR (if that is the cause).

Thanks!

[Sailn]

It is interesting. I use a shuttle with the nforce-2 (mx440se) onboard video out (visa s-video to my tv and rgb to the projector). To my eye, the image quality is quite good depending on source. It seems that some shows, which are shot and broadcast in hd are signiuficantly better looking, even when using an ntsc tuner than ones which have been shot in sd.

I have been using the elecard codec with dscaler and a pvr250. As was stated before, adjusting the amp settings is very important for getting good results, as is knowing how to properly adjust the tv/projector. The default settings on most tv's seem to be much to bright. Get a good test pattern and properly adjust the settings on your display (btw, avsforum.com is a good source for this type of information)

[zombie10k]

guys thanks for the tips. I should have mentioned that I thought SageTV had a better picture when compared with Microsoft Media Center Edition. I tried tweaking MCE for over 2 weeks with various settings, and I thought the Mpeg artifacting and noise was terrible. (regardless of the codec being used and various brightness/contrast settings)

I will take the advice given and see if it makes a difference. I do have the PVR250, so i'll give it a shot.

btw, the artifacting and noise reminds me of watching my father-in-law's sat. system. Some people think satellite looks great, but overall, I think the mpeg noise is noticable on almost all channels and is disturbing to watch.

With the Tivo, it looks very similar to the original broastcast so I hope I can get it to match, or get close.

thanks

[pawn]

Originally posted by zombie10k
btw, the artifacting and noise reminds me of watching my father-in-law's sat. system. Some people think satellite looks great, but overall, I think the mpeg noise is noticable on almost all channels and is disturbing to watch.

Great comparison!

I had a DirecTV system for 2 years and I always hated the artifacting, etc. Especially for regular network broadcasts.

The good news is, I can assure that SageTV can be made to look much better.

[Narflex]

VBR on the DVCR is disabled for all of the regular settings (regardless of what they say). You can enable it if you create a custom setting and set vbr to 100 instead of 1 or 0. But, VBR on the DVCR doesn't work well at all, it'll crash a lot on you. That's why you have to use a funky value to enable it.

[repoman]

Wish I could solve your problem. I've had DVCR and Tivo and my 250 with Sage is dramatically better then DVCR and better with sports then Tivo. I found Tivo virtually unwatchable with sports on my 433cmx plasma. Play around, its worth the effort.

[salsbst]

Originally posted by pawn


4. Tweak the Video Proc Amp settings under "Video Capture Settings (Advanced): I use the following:

Brightness 126
Contrast 66
Hue 0
Saturation 65
Sharpness 1

I think the Brightness & Saturation settings are absolutely critical and I'm sure the optimum level of all of these settings will change for any given system.

Careful, these settings seem to slip back to default from time to time (you can permanently change the defaults under HKLM\Software\Hauppage somewhere).

Is there any way to set these on a per-card basis? I've tried to do so from the SageTV Detailed Setup window, but it doesn't seem that the settings are made on a per-card basis. My two 250s exhibit drastically different capture qualities with respect to color and black/white levels. One is internally tuning and the other capturing via S-video.

Thanks,
Stuart

[fidget]

Originally posted by salsbst
Is there any way to set these on a per-card basis? I've tried to do so from the SageTV Detailed Setup window, but it doesn't seem that the settings are made on a per-card basis. My two 250s exhibit drastically different capture qualities with respect to color and black/white levels. One is internally tuning and the other capturing via S-video.

Stuart,

I noticed in this thread (http://www.freytechnologies.com/foru...video#post3825) that you can set one card to be two different sources (one for s-video and one for tuner), so it would be nice to have the video capture settings be on a per-source basis rather than per-card.

- Jonathan

[salsbst]

Agreed. Ideally each source on each card could have separate settings. I don't mean this to sound like a challenge, but this doesn't solve my problem, does it? Or am I misunderstanding?

[fidget]

Originally posted by salsbst
Agreed. Ideally each source on each card could have separate settings. I don't mean this to sound like a challenge, but this doesn't solve my problem, does it? Or am I misunderstanding?

I was just pointing this out in case the feature would be added to SageTV in the future. I am currently putting together a system with multiple PVR-250 cards and would like to use either of them for recording from s-video and would also like to balance to be the same. Dedicating one card for s-video recording isn't an option for me .

- Jonathan