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| General Discussion General discussion about SageTV and related companies, products, and technologies. |
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#1
10-13-2004, 12:54 PM
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MCE2005 = Sage 2.0 killer?
  Figured that title might get some attention.... Seriously though, I am a loyal Sage user. Since I resolved my hardware issues (bad stick of memory), Sage has really been rock solid reliable. It now has a very high WAF and has faded into the background as a "consumer device" rather than a debugging/tweaking experiment. Funny thing is that I'm still on v1.4.10...v2.0 has a snazzy new skin, but not enough new functionality for me to upgrade. BUT... I read the HTPC News article about MCE2005. Price is about comparable to Sage + a license of XP Home. Finally supports two tuners (can't handle more than two, though). Handles "favorites" functionality (no I.R., which I've never turned on anyway). And yes, the killer app.... HDTV That function alone has me half considering dumping Sage completely, flushing my machine clean, and going MCE. Based on threads in this forum that date back almost a year and a half, I was REALLY hoping to see some type of progress or updates on HDTV. Shy of a few 'alpha' tests with AccessDTV and HiPix, there's been no glimmer of hope and no roadmap of any kind. If Sage was first out of the gates with a truly integrated HDTV/SDTV PVR solution, I really think it would've blown the doors off the competition and really established Sage as the premier provider of HTPC solutions. Alas, to a certain extent they're now in a "catch-up" position with the 800-pound gorilla who wants to own this market space. And before I get crucified for being a traitor, I'm not trying to bash Sage - I'm trying to rattle the cage a bit and see if ANYONE is listening to the continual clamor for HDTV support. There are pages of posts, polls, and requests....followed by deafening silence from the boys at Sage. Of course, this is my opinion only...worth roughly $0.015 on the open market.  Soapbox mode off....and flame suit on....  Jason 
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#2
10-13-2004, 01:12 PM
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You need to convince Frey that the OTA HD market is large enough to justify them doing it. I know there are a lot of OTA users here, but personally everyone I know has HDTV and all are either cable or Satellite.
Plus other than that, the PVR functions in MCE are really basic.
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#5
10-13-2004, 02:14 PM
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There is plenty of HD OTA in the Dallas area. Especially now that football season is underway. I hate the decision: PVR or HDTV. PVR won out most of the summer, but now that football season and the new fall premiers have hit, I'm more and more giving up the PVR and watching in HD.
Based on posts from a year ago (Dan referring to possible HD support within 6 months), I thought by now (double the 6 month estimate) we'd have an all in one PVR/HD solution. This is the only thing seriously missing from my HTPC. Of course I thought there would be mvp support by now as well. Anyway, it seems like things were moving much faster last year than they are now. Maybe it is just that the brothers are quiter now, but since May it seems that progress has been very slow....
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#6
10-13-2004, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
- Would it be possible for Frey to open up SageTV just enough to offer the possibility for 3rd parties to create the support for different type of cards (HD or not) or other interfaces like firewire? - Would it be possible for Frey to support MCE drivers?
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#7
10-13-2004, 04:13 PM
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Let see is MCE 2005 a SageTV killer
1: DVR-MS format still suck, Sure there are free ripper utilities have been around for a long time but that also mean you spent even long time to get anything done that if you get to works for you and dose not count the fact that most of Best Edited don't work well with DVD stream format. You most likely not beable do any with HDTV file becuase there mostly going to be enbeded in same DVR-MS carp and pettey sure thoses free ripper utilities will not work. 2: Lack of FM recording. 3: No way to do custom recording profile so your SOL on doing VCD, MPEG1, SVCD, Program stream, etc recording not count the fact your stuck with it quality level setting. 4: MCE Record TV protected content from channel like HBO, etc know as CGMS-A -- Content Generation Management System for Analog for input like S-Video/Composite/Component and RF Tuner what dose this mean is you can record from HBO channel but what it mean you not be able play on other PC in the house becuase tired to that Main MCE system only you know that DRM carp and you must likely not beable burn as a reg DVD so guest what your not in control stop think about what happing if MPAA/Hollywood studios start force the iss in all broadcast to use this and Broadcast Flag carp OPS your SOL. 5: Lack of weather section. cassis6 it all ready support MCE drivers in fact there is no diff form reg drivers vs MCE drivers other then MCE drivers are WHQL (Windows Hardware Quality Labs) aka Certified drivers. Last edited by SHS; 10-13-2004 at 04:18 PM.
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#8
10-13-2004, 04:30 PM
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That's funny, I was just coming on the forums to post about HD in Sage
 With the release of TheaterTek 2 and the ability to time-shift .ts streams either over a network or locally, we have seen that it can be done with software. Really all Sage needs to do is treat the HD card as a second tuner. There are MANY people who have a PVR-250 and MyHD combo in thier systems. I would be super excited if Sage treated the MyHD card in my system as a tuner, downloaded guide data for OTA HD, and used all the 2-tuner SageTV PVR features with that card along with the PVR-250.
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#10
10-13-2004, 08:17 PM
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Yeah, Gen1 Extenders will only be SDTV, NO HD. Now 2nd gen boxes maybe, and 2nd gen will most likely include DVD.
I beta'ed 2k5, it's nice, and has alot of slick features, but a Sage killer? Not hardly. the MS-DVR format is a pain in the neck to work with if you're not using their software. You can't just drop it into Nero and burn a DVD, you have to convert it with a little freeware utility, and with the 2k5 files, I never got a good conversion, always desynced the video/audio...
__________________
Server: AMD Phenom 2 920 2.8ghz Quad, 16gb Ram, 4tb Storage, 1xHVR-2250, 1 Ceton Cable Card adapter, Windows 7 SP1
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#11
10-14-2004, 04:14 AM
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Sage Killer it doesn't appear to be, but it does have some nice features (Including Weather Support). The Movie feature is a new and innovative way to search for good content. The fact that it is stable and user friendly out of the box is nice as well. The way it "could have been" a "Sage Killer" is if the support for the Media Extenders was what it should have been.
I have read that video from the extenders is amazing, even better than TV out of the MCE box. The problem is that the extenders cannot stream a DVD, VOD or "Protected channels" as stated above. Also it appears that the extenders have a very difficult time displaying 16x9 ratio. I feel the main element Sage is lacking is the support for the Media MVP / Media Extenders or a simular device. These devices make connecting every tv in your house a viable solution. I cannot afford to build a pc for each one of my TVs. If I were to build a stand alone HTPC for one tv I would probably use MCE, but at this point Sage is much more flexible in the server aspect of the HTPC arena. I don't believe OTA HD support is the main issue Frey should be focusing on, it is without a doubt support for "Media Extenders" Just my 2cc, -ST
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#12
10-14-2004, 07:37 AM
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Cool....lots of interesting feedback. By no means am I an expert on MCE2005 and I definitely think there are areas where Sage excels, but here's my thoughts on some of the specifics mentioned:
One thing Sage may want to consider is a modular concept, similar to what they do with the Sage client. You want HD support? Add the $25 HD module. You want MVP support? Add the $25 MVP module. Yes, if you check off ALL the option boxes, Sage could start to get pretty spendy. An a'la carte menu would allow folks flexibility to purchase what they want, leave off what they don't, and drive quicker ROI for Jeff/Dan to justify investing the time/resources to get these features available. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...  Jason Last edited by rotaryracer; 10-14-2004 at 07:46 AM.
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#13
10-14-2004, 02:29 PM
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I have a feeling that if they added a MVP client to their items in the cart, we'd see a shortage of MVP's in stores and online, and that'd probably be one of the most purchased items in the Sage store for a while
.Also, I can't remember what package it was, be we tested a DVD burning package that was added to MCE, and ran from the MCE menus (I'm thinking Sonic but not 100% sure, will check later). With that you could burn your DVR files directly to DVD. It had to transcode them, and I never could get one to pump out (simply because I didn't want to wait the 2 or 3hours it was saying it was going to take to burn the show (a simple 2 hr show done on best quality, ended up being over 6g if I remember right).
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Server: AMD Phenom 2 920 2.8ghz Quad, 16gb Ram, 4tb Storage, 1xHVR-2250, 1 Ceton Cable Card adapter, Windows 7 SP1
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#14
10-14-2004, 05:27 PM
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DVD burning
I'm just learning about MCE2005's features. But, I thought MCE burns recordings to DVD through Sonic. You may not get as much control over the settings as with your favorite burn tool, but the capability is there.
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#15
10-21-2004, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
I mentioned previously retail purchased MCE 2K5 PCs have this ability too. The problem is the Multi-media CD software is not licensed for distribution so system builders like HP and Gateway don't give you a copy of the CD (because it mostly contains store demo material). Therefore, it only comes preinstalled... meaning if you gotta reinstall your OS, you lose this capability. I've read that Sonic is offering a MCE DVD burning plug-in on their website. But reports say it just burns the MS-DVR file directly to the DVD. Kind of pointless huh?. Anyways, the current situation is that a RETAIL BUILT MCE 2K5 PC supports burning directly to DVD from WITHIN MCE. This is definitely a WIN FOR MCE, not Sage since Sage doesn't even support integrated burning. If you are comparing "home built" MCE PCs, then yes, you gotta convert from DVR-MS before buring to DVD. In this case, it's a Win for Sage. But you have to realize that Nero, RecordNow Max, and other packages are going to adding direct buring support soon for the DVR-MS format just like they did for MP3 and other formats. When that happens, it will be a DRAW between Home Built MCE boxes and Sage. Quote:
Quote:
If you're talking about extensibility in general, I think the SDK functionality within MCE is pretty powerful. Someone has already built a fully functioning DVD Media Library plugin to catalog, store and playback both ONLINE (ripped dvds in ISO format) and OFFLINE (dvd's not on HD). Someone has built a MCE Contacts plugin that interfaces with your address book. The same developer is building a File Manager Explorer plug-in and other applications. I personally don't really care about these exact plug-ins, but it shows what can be done within the MCE framework. IMO, I think MCE currently has a more robust SDK (maybe not simplier) for building full blown 3rd party applications. Maybe things will change if Studio ever gets released. For now, I'll leave judgment to each individual. Quote:
ADVANTAGE - ???? Going just by the features you originally listed above, you have to pick Sage because MCE does not including IR. Personally, I think IR is horribly unusable in Sage for all but the most patient person... so I'd call this a DRAW when you ignore IR. BUT... there are some neat PVR features in MCE that are missing from Sage. For example, in MCE's global DEFAULT RECORDING settings, it automatically defaults to padding the START and ENDING times if possible. To be more exact, it says... "START WHEN POSSIBLE:", then you can select "x MINUTES BEFORE". There's also a "END WHEN POSSIBLE:", and you can select "x MINUTES AFTER". What this does is automatically start & end pad ALL scheduled recordings automatically if and only if doing so doesn't conflict with another back-to-back show. I think this is a VERY COOL feature that SAGE should add immediately because some networks start shows early or late BUT DON'T tell the EPG data companies. The F/X network seems to do this randomly when I record Rescue Me. Another really cool PVR feature is the Movies menu. Clicking movies causes MCE to automatically search though your EPG data then download the Movie Posters for all movies currently playing (ie. you can browse by movie covers). You can then search/sort this list by "On Now", "On Next", Actors/Directors, Genre, "Top Rated", and "Title Search". Now that is cool. It also automatically downloads cd album art and album data. This is added to your library for searching, sorting and browsing (browsing by album cover is also supported) You can also buy movies via MCE's integrated Download On Demand service but I'll never use it. From what I've heard, the movies are compressed so I don't see the point. I'd rather walk across the street and rent the DVD. Anyways, after considering these extra PVR feature I'll again leave it to the individual to decide what features are important. Quote:
As I see it, the biggest pros and cons for Sage as as follows... Frey, you should look at these cons because microsoft IS coming.... SageTV: Pros - there are MANY MANY pros to Sage so I'm not going to list them all in detail. I'm just going to hit the ones that differentiate it from most of the competition: 1 - by FAR AND AWAY Sage's biggest advantage is its ability to support more than 2 analog tuners. MCE is limited to 3, but only 2 can be analog. 2 - FULL PVR functionality meaning Live TV trick play, IR (but terrible A.I. IMO), full scheduling and recording functionality. 3. Free EPG. MCE is the same, but this is what's going to hurt, if not kill Tivo and Replay. Cons - Sage doesn't have many serious cons, but it does have issues.. 1. No DTV/HDTV support. THIS IS HUGE. Sage's biggest Pro right now will be it's BIGGEST Con in the future. At the end of 2006, those 5 PCI analog tuners in you box are going to be about as useful as a 9600 baud ISA modem. We all know DTV/HDTV has been mandated by law. Whether or not it's one or two or three years away, it doesn't matter. It is coming and it's not going away. Frey better get its roadmap together or risk being runover by MS and Tivo (with their new HDTivo units), and other newcomers 2. weak Music Library support. This is huge. You need a total package today to compete. Video only or Audio only isn't enough. And what about streaming radio or FM? What about satallite radio? You know it's coming to the PC eventually since it's already in the home. 3. No inexpensive H/W client support. This is going to be a killer for Sage. Tens of thousands of homes have xBoxs in them fully networked and connected to A/V centers with digital toslink and HiDef component outs. If $60-$80 can convert your XBox into a fully functioning, feature rich, mulitmedia center, why on earth would YOU NOT purchase a MCE computer the next time you went PC shopping? You gotta be nuts, especially now that retail MCE boxes will be dropping to the $500-$800 range. For those of us who build our own, why on earth would we spend $265 on a full retail version of WinXP Pro when we can buy a full OEM version of MCE (which is built on top of WinXP Pro) for $140 + $40 for the remote? 5. There are other minor grips about Sage... things like "working out of the box", stability issues related to h/w and s/w. For the most part I do think Sage is fairly reliable, especially once 2.1 gets all the bugs worked out. But I personally think Frey could benefit from partnering more closely with h/w & s/w vendors to help standardize on a set of "known good technologies" for at least the major components like Audio/Video decodes, video cards, and capture cards. I'm not bashing Sage. I like my Sage setup. Personally I didn't have nearly as much difficulty as did others in getting my Sage box up and running. But I know many people did, and I'm sure many ppl just gave up and left without complaining after trying the trial version. I just think Frey needs to look at trying to improve the "outta the box" experience". I know 2.1 is trying to address reliability and robustness so I'm happy about that. FYI, my MCE install took less than 45 min from installing the hardware and "formatting c:" to the point where I was watching TV. No conflicts. No h/w or s/w issues. No codec problems or lipsync issues... nothing. It just flat worked outta the box. Anyways for now, I'm sticking with my Sage 2.0.20 install. It's running fairly stable with only the random lock-up/shutdown. For the time being, I'm content with continuing to test MCE2k5 as my Desktop machine. Once the XBox extenders come out, I'll have the full MCE experience in the living room along with Tivo and Sage.
Last edited by erics; 10-21-2004 at 06:49 PM.
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#17
10-21-2004, 05:57 PM
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I'm not defending MS or anyone that supports DRM, but you have to realize that EVERYONE has to "sellout" because it's now (or will soon be) FEDERAL LAW!!! MS or Hauppauge or Sage or Snapstream or AverMedia, etc... are ALL going to have to "sellout" or risks loosing millions or even billions in lawsuits launched by content owners, content distributers and the United States Federal Government.
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#18
10-21-2004, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
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#19
10-21-2004, 06:07 PM
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erics, thanks for the info. What you put together was very informative.
__________________
Server: AMD 3800 X2, 2GB PC3200 Ram, Hauppage PVR-500, 256 MB Geforce 7300 GS. Client: Compaq R4000 laptop-AMD 64 bit 3800+, 1GB PC2700 Ram, ATI x200 express.
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#20
10-21-2004, 06:31 PM
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Oh, and just to be fair, these are some things I really hate about MCE 2k5.
1. This is TOP OF MY GRIPE LIST! I hate the FF speeds in MCE. It works like Tivo (ie.. you press the button once and it starts FFing, press again and it speeds up, press again...etc) Actually, that's the part I like and wish Sage did the same. What HATE is that FF Step1 is too slow. But FF Step2 is INSANELY TOO FAST!!! You always overshoot the show by minutes. I was told that MCE 2k4 did an automatic skipback after you hit play to compensate for reaction time (a la Tivo), but this ISN'T THE CASE IN MCE 2K5. 2. There doesn't appear to be a summary screen detailing why something DIDN'T get recorded or won't be recorded. This is called the TO DO menu in Tivo and is very useful in diagnosing why something didn't get recorded or why something did. 3. I think the Font in MCE's EPG is too big. It's very readable, but it really cuts down on the number of EPG lines displayed on screen. Also, because MCE's menus are Always visible on the Left side of the screen, it takes up space that could be used by the EPG. MCE also displays the currently playing media (cd, mp3, live tv, recording), when you are in the Menus or the EPG, so that also takes up space. 4. So far, I can't get MCE automatically update it's EPG data nightly. But that might be because I because I haven't registered my copy of XP with with MS yet. I'm assuming after I activate my OS, this will start working properly. 5. Some strange focus issues. I'm currently using MCE as my desktop machine. When I have MCE minimized, some functions work with remote but some functions don't. Also, behavior in general is strange. For example, MCE continues to play your media when you exit out of an area to go back into the menus (media displays in a small window in the lower left corner). So let's say I've got WMA playing and I go into the main TV management windows. When I press REW on my remote, nothing happens. Next track works and volume works, Play and Pause seem to only randomly work. If I stay in the Music menus, then everything works fine. It's just when trying to multi-task (ie, playing media in the background while accessing other sections of the MCE program) that I see this issue with the remote. 6. I haven't found an easy way to go in and change my video encoding settings (ie, VMR, Overlay, etc...) after completing initial setup. I've seen a 3rd party app that lets you adjust these settings, but MS should give you access to this without having to re-run Setup. 7. MCE doesn't have a network "showcases" feature like Tivo or a Suggestions (based on your previous ratings) like Tivo. I realize that "Showcases" is basically paid advertisment, but it generally highlights new upcomming programming. The SUGGESTIONS menu is really helpful in Tivo since these suggested programs are all based on your previous likes and dislikes but are shows you don't have scheduled to be recorded for whatever reasons. 8. The MCE remote is kinda annoying. The Transport buttons are small and poorly shaped. I'm constantly looking at the remote to determine if I'm pressing the correct button. I also REALLY REALLY REALLY hate having to press a separate physical BACK button to drill out of a menu. It's retarded!!! I just want to use the LEFT/RIGHT/UP/DOWN buttons to navigate through the menus like Tivo, and for the most, like Sage (some areas require you to press the BACK button in Sage) 9. They took away direct remote control access to My Pictures, My Music, etc... Now you gotta drill down through the main menu to access those areas of MCE. That is really annoying. For now, that's all... Sure I'll think up more in the future. Last edited by erics; 10-21-2004 at 06:40 PM.
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