Why choose sage/snap over tivo/replay?

[Scott5]

Hi gang -

I've been following DVR for awhile - more than a year to be honest, and I've spent lots and lots of time comparing Sage to SnapStream, reading reviews of video cards, etc...

But I need to be convinced of one thing before I take the next step.

All the reviews of these PC based DVR's all seem to indicate that the technology is great and the interfaces are now almost as good as Tivo and more importantly, the picture quality is almost as good as Tivo...So what's the compeling reason to go "PC" vs TIVO if the dedicated set top boxes are BETTER?

To me the reason was to avoid the $12.95 / month fee. But now, I'm looking at the costs. ( Research base on buy.com today )

Costs to Building a PC DVR:
Assuming one already has a basic couple year old computer, Add Software and happ PVR 250 ($175), add a video card 5900 XT or 9800 Pro (~$220), add a Hard Drive 160 GB maxtor (~$100).
The cost of the above items is $500!

Or - Get an $80 hour Tivo for $175, or a 40 hour unit for $100.

The $300 to $400 difference between the above will cover alot of $12 monthly fees. And you'd then get Tivo's better quality which is important to me.

So why build your own? - Is it for the challange? On paper, it appears to cost more to get less quality! I recognize that you have the capability to go multi-tuner, more storage capacity, streaming, etc (each with more cost) - but if someone like me just wants to have basic tivo functonality, on one TV, happy with one tuner - why would I build my own?

( Honest question guys - I'd really enjoy building one, but need to be cost sensitive at the moment and need to get the best option for the money. Thanks for your input!)

[salsbst]

A few good points for SageTV off the top of my head:

a) don't have to hack to add storage capacity
b) intelligent use of multiple tuners
c) "it just makes sense" client/server architecture
d) extensibility
e) it's part of an entire HTPC that does a lot more than just "be a PVR"

What is it you mean when you state that Tivo has better quality?

[salsbst]

Whoops, just saw that you have no use for client/server or multiple tuners or large storage capacity -- which makes me wonder if you actually plan to use the PVR or not . Seriously, a PVR without these features just doesn't cut it in my book, but to each his own.

A couple of other things I like:
f) tweakability
g) upscaling to HD

I'm still curious about the Tivo has better quality comment. But it seems to me that you've already made up your mind that you want a TiVO and that you're here just sort of doing due diligence -- which is fine! But I think if you go against your heart you're bound to be unhappy.

[White94Cobra]

For me I wanted to be able to record more than two shows at once and not be limited to Tivo's ~250 gig limit of shows. I also wanted the ability to play back my DivX and music library, watch TV on my laptop anywhere on my property, and add all sorts of custom functionality. I am using a combination of Sage/Meedio, but it's possible to do it all in Sage.

I've never believed the cost factor... If you have DirecTV Tivo only costs $4.99/month (free if you subscribe to their Premium package) and the DirecTivo can be had for $49 from Circuit City right now. Just a PVR-250 card will run you a years worth of Tivo subscription plus the unit itself. Figuring the DirecTivo can record two streams at once, it looks even worse for the PC-PVR side. But, like I said, the Tivo is limited in it's functionality/expandability. I won't comment on the SA Tivo because it is more expensive initially and monthly and can only record one stream at once.

[Opus4]

You can get PC components cheaper than what you quoted, but I don't believe cost is a real good reason to compare one to the other.

Originally Posted by Scott5

So why build your own?

As salsbst said: I use my system for more than just TV recording/watching. Beyond full multimedia capabilities (DVD, TV w/multiple recorders, FM radio, CD music, etc.), it is a full computer that my family can use, even at the same time that SageTV is doing its work. Also, while working in my office, I can also view all my shows on my 2nd monitor. I just find it very flexible & upgradable as my needs change.

It is up to you to determine what product fits your needs.

- Andy

[White94Cobra]

I think a DirecTivo has the best quality, but Sage can be configured to rival/beat an SA Tivo. The problem is, it needs to be configured. How many of us have spent $$$ on codecs and hours of tweaking to get PQ to rival Tivo. With Tivo, you plug it in and go. Now, if someone would just come out with a good dedicated TV card that can display the windows desktop (or was easy to program an interface for) we'd be set.

My reasoning on the DirecTivo is because it doesn't recompress anything, it directly stores the Sat. broadcast and decodes it during playback.

[Scott5]

Thanks members - I appreciate your view points. I actually started putting together a system last Christmas but got stalled when my 500 Mhz celeron wasn't up to the task... It can barely operate as an i-tunes unit now!

To get back into the game - I'd have to buy a barebones system, as well as the $500 of the stuff listed in my initiate post. (or maybe less - I just picked those video cards because it seemed to be what everyone here uses.) So with the computer I'm probably up to about $800.

Which was a bit of a shock because until know I'd never added everything up at the same time!

I don't know how to respond to the comments about maybe I don't really need a DVR if I don't recognize the values of all the extras. Right now I'm going from the technology stage where I hunt for a blank VHS cassette five minutes after my show has already started, then have to play a couple minutes of it to make sure I don't tape over my wife's recording, then give up because it all such a pain in the *ss.

The idea of putting together a central media server really appeals to me though - just a matter of money I guess.

About my quality statement:
- Snapstream's web site lists a half dozen links to PC PVR reviews I read today - most of them go out of their way to indicate that PC based PVR's offer lower quality than the so called dedicated set-top boxes.

I have no experence either way, just reporting what I've read... I probably shouldn't believe everything I read! The DVR reviews are always littered with little errors that I could pick after my first day of reading up on this stuff.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by White94Cobra

Sage can be configured to rival/beat an SA Tivo. The problem is, it needs to be configured. How many of us have spent $$$ on codecs and hours of tweaking to get PQ to rival Tivo.

Not me... I just installed my Xcard & never had a PQ problem. (OK, so I spent the $$, just not the time.)

Originally Posted by White94Cobra

Now, if someone would just come out with a good dedicated TV card that can display the windows desktop (or was easy to program an interface for) we'd be set.

Oh. Well, there you've got me.

- Andy

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by Scott5

About my quality statement:
- Snapstream's web site lists a half dozen links to PC PVR reviews I read today - most of them go out of their way to indicate that PC based PVR's offer lower quality than the so called dedicated set-top boxes.

I have no experence either way, just reporting what I've read... I probably shouldn't believe everything I read! The DVR reviews are always littered with little errors that I could pick after my first day of reading up on this stuff.

Let's point out that I'll bet those reviews were dealing with software encoders like the ATI AIW series. I haven't seen anyone who has done a comparison say that the AIW picture came anywhere near that from a 250 or other hardware encoder. If the reviewers don't know what they are doing, they aren't going to get good results.

I had the same comment from someone I know when I first looked into this: these PC PVR products just can't compare to a Tivo or even the PQ of my cable directly connected to my TV. He was wrong.

Also: I think my Xcard was easier to setup for good output PQ, but others around here say you can get very good output results from a video card now.

- Andy

[salsbst]

I don't know how to respond to the comments about maybe I don't really need a DVR if I don't recognize the values of all the extras.

I did not intend to imply that you were failing to recognize value... just to express surprise that you don't think of those as valuable. You are completely entitled to your own values even if I am surprised by them! I'm sorry if the joking manner I intended did not come across.

Re: quality... if you don't have the patience to tweak, you will get lower quality out of a PC-based PVR than a Tivo, but if you do, you can get better quality than the Tivo. Or, I should say, than a ReplayTV... I've never actually seen a TiVO so I can't comment, but I did have a ReplayTV for a while and AFAIR there was no way to calibrate it.

[nielm]

Not very relevant for you, but for me the choice was easy: there is no such thing as a Tivo in Belgium!

Also I wanted an MP3 player something to display my digicam photos and something to play archived XVids... As a bonus, my PQ is much better than my old S-VHS video...

When I started I thought that 40hrs (100Gb) and 1 tuner would be enough... I now have another 80hrs (90Gb) of recompressed movies on other disks, and I often find conflicts that another tuner would help to resolve...

[greggerm]

I built mine to make use of some spare parts, but ended up spending lots more than expected. Not because I *had* to, but because I *wanted* to!

While I know the original poster has already said he may not need these features, I'll rattle them anyway.

Multiple Tuners - Godsend. I have three 250's installed, with room for more. My local channels broadcast a few of my favorite shows at the same time. With multiple tuners, I can insure that in my absence, I will be able to watch all the shows I want. Additionally, I can do a few combinations of watching and recording at once. This has become the real "surprise" feature that I use the most.

Network Support - Having a computer in another room allows me to use SageTV Client to watch anything, including "live" TV, on it - without a cable hookup. Girlfriend is in the other room watching her shows, I am watching the game on the computer. Nothing better.

Customizable - AS we are seeing now with Studio, the ability to create and edit your user interface is nice. I am a tweaker, so I am watching those with the beta of Studio with great interest.

Quality - Picture quality is good. Not SPEC-FREAKING-TACULAR, but good!

Wife (Girlfriend)- Acceptance - Factor (WAF/GAF) - My girlfriend has fully embraced the system. While she doesn't like a few of the quirks of it, she really appreciates the storage capacity I built in, as well as my ability to edit out commercials and then RE-enter the shows to a library, where she can watch any one she wants.

SageTV to me is a project - not a true "solution". But I consider myself to be a bit of a geek, so it's all good. SageTV isn't yet ready for the mainstream - leave that to the TiVo's and ReplayTV's of the world. For those who LIKE to tweak, play, and have the satisfaction of doing it themselves, SageTV is indispensible!

(Nevermind the capacity expansion, the tuner expansion, the media/picture/video library capability, etc. etc. etc.)


-Greg

[jptaz]

I guess I would have to agree with Scott5.

From a pure cost / ease of use as a "PVR Only" Tivo or Replay is most likely a better bet. If you are ok with the $12.95 monthly fee and you just want a single or dual VCR replacement it makes sense. If there is only ever 2 shows on at the same time that you want to watch or record this is fine. I would vote for ReplayTV as it actually has networking features...not as elegant and intelligent as SageTV, but still way better than Tivo. Pictures and Music can be played on Tivo too.

I could not live with that myself, but if a friend or relative asks if they should by a Tivo or build a system like mine I don't hestitate to say get a Tivo or ReplayTV.

HTPCs are not for some one who just wants to record 1 show and watch another on TV like back in the day when I had a VCR. There is still too much work involved in setup of a HTPC. 4 years ago my room mate and I had 3 VCRs recording shows while we watched a 4th. Not a fun task running around and making sure tapes were in and it was ready to record.

Now with 4 PVR 250s and SageTV I rarely if ever wath Live TV. My wife has even gotten used to it and loves being able to come home and watch her soaps on the Kitchen PC while making dinner. She also likes that we can start watching something on the main TV and then just hit the record button and head to the bed room and finish watching in bed or watch it later.

I can't wait to put to more SageTV Clients in my house. When I am done I will have the ability to watch SageTV in the Master Bedroom, 3 Guest Bedrooms, Living room, and Kitchen. I am still on the fence about putting one in the Laundry/Exercise room since right now we are working out in the Living Room. I would prefer that some of the new clients be MediaMVPs, but I still have a couple old PCs that work fine as clients.

John

[mbrown3]

Why choose at all? I have both!

[mls]

I think far too often people keep mixing apples and oranges in this sort of discussion.

If one has a satelite Tivo, sure they have good picture quality and achieving that from a computer does require some tweaking. On the other hand, the picture quality of a standard Tivo from an antenna or analog cable is not any better (or any worse) than what one can easily get from a computer. So, as far as I'm concerned, until things move up into the HDTV area picture quality is not even an issue.

As for cost, again everyone seems to get lost in their thinking there also.

People keep pointing out how cheap they can buy a Tivo and how low they can per month to use it. However, none of these people bother looking at the total cost that will add up to over the lifetime of a Tivo. If they would stop and figure that total cost out they would find it to be about the same as a one time cost of adding the needed hardware to a computer.

Sure, now they complain about the cost of the computer itself. Well, most people will (eventually) own a computer anyway, so why not buy (or preferablly build) a decent one that can be expanded (instead of buying an cheapo $500 one that they'll have to throw out and replace because they can't add/change/expand anything).

Then the choice really comes down to if they really want to spend a ton of money on individual components for their entertainment center (a whole rack full of things like CD/DVD players and such), or have most of it all in one small box (a computer). By the time one adds up the cost of all the individual components it can easilly end up costing several times more than building it all into a computer.

Does one really need to spend all that money on a rack full of equipment just to impress friends?

For over 6 years now my computer has been my complete entertainment center simply because I had not had room for all those extra individual components. If I can play audio CD's, watch DVD's, watch and record TV and still have the the option to do other things like import videos/pics from cameras, edit video, etc... Why would I ever need all the extra outside stuff?

Not to mention being able to store a large amount of the audio CD's and even several DVD's on it. Then put those away so they don't get scratched up, burn whatever copies I want that can get ruined in the car or by the kids.

Computers aren't for everyone and I'm not saying they ever will be as easy as just buy and plug it in and it works like the other components may be. What I am saying is that in the long term, the cost factor is not any different no matter which way you choose to do things.

I enjoy working with computers, so for me that is a logical choice. Others may prefer the ease of plug it and and it works type of setup. But, let's quit cloading the issue with arguments over picture quality and cost since those really have little to do with anything. It's the TOTAL cost and how much effort one wants to put into their system that should be used in making the decision, and it's gonna end up costing the same in the long run anyway.

So, the real question is do you want to put some time and effort into it, or just want it all to work right out of the box? A simple SageTV setup to act as a simple Tivo really isn't that hard to do. Although many of us have gone beyound that simplistic level of usage.

[zz5]

Scott5, I didn't take the time to read anyone else's post in this thread, so I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this.

You can buy a lifetime subscription to TIVO and ReplayTV for $300. It only takes 2 years of monthly fees to add up to that price. That's why the base unit is so cheap. The fees offset hardware cost. They want to pay the monthly fee because that's the worse deal. And you get a discount for multiple units. I just wanted to throw that in if you actually are thinking of doing Sage instead of TIVO/ReplayTV just because of that. All the PC pvr applications like to talk about the "outrageous monthly fees" but they never mention you can pay a lifetime fee with the TIVO/ReplayTV.

Buying multiple ReplayTV's is actually the better choice. They can do everything that software PVR can do, for practical purposes, and then you have multiple clients, which you wouldn't have with a multi-tuner Sage computer. And I say this, having a 4-tuner Sage system myself. I would have done it different today, or at least looked into it. You should go to avsforums.com and search for discussion on this.

[salsbst]

Buying multiple ReplayTV's is actually the better choice. They can do everything that software PVR can do, for practical purposes, and then you have multiple clients, which you wouldn't have with a multi-tuner Sage computer

Woahh!

Multiple Replays or multiple SageTVs.... SageTV's client/server features crush the competition. Do you really disagree or am I misunderstanding you?

[zz5]

salsbst,

No you're not misunderstanding me. You're probably where I was until 6 months ago when I, just for fun, began researching TIVO/ReplayTV again. I say just for fun because at that point I had already invested so much in Sage that I wasn't planning to switch. Did you know that ReplayTV has all the interoperably that you get with Sage? You can watch shows from any unit on any other unit, and you can even schedule everything from one unit. You can even schedule from your PC. It actually does pretty much everything Sage can do.

[salsbst]

And it figures out which unit to delete the least cherished recording from to make room for the new recording? I have a lot of trouble believing that ReplayTV has actually got the recordings management features that Sage does. But I'm willing to listen.

P.S. I only had the Replay b/c I was setting it up for my parents. It is now a brick sitting in their den b/c it stopped downloading guide data and SonicBlue or whatever it is called at this moment is not being helpful with fixing it.

[zz5]

salsbst,

Actually, I think recording management is one of the strong points of TIVO/ReplayTV over Sage. From what I understand, they tell you how long it will be before each show is deleted and there's debugging information that will tell you why things were deleted so you can make adjustments. But I don't know for sure because I don't own one of those. I believe that a lot of the new functionality wasn't there with the old units. There are some good threads on this on avsforums.com. My suggestion to anyone just starting out with all this is at least look at TIVO/ReplayTV.