An Open Letter to Frey

[dkardatzke]

As always I appreciate everyone's passion towards SageTV. It's customers like you that keep us working towards improving the product to help spread the word about SageTV. As I hope you all can appreciate, we are also a growing company and have many opportunities in front of us, many of which we cannot share at this time. We are committed to making SageTV a continued success and our full-time efforts are focused on achieving that success.

Our plans are to share information when it's ready to be shared and to make public betas available once functionality is complete. I hope you can continue to have patience and just know that we are working on some great things to improve the product and increase penetration. So keep an eye out for announements in the coming weeks on new features and additional hardware support that will come with future point versions for 2.0. As for everything else, keep spreading the word about SageTV and know that we are working on good things to come.

Best regards,
Dan

[mostlyfodder]

Hi-

Here is one *very* happy customer's opinion:

1- SageTV is the best PVR available right now.
2- Meedio is the best front-end menu/mp3-management system/etc.

These two apps work great together, and I think both have ambitious plans to add the functionalities that are currently offered by the other. Meedio's developing a TV app, and Sage has Studio in the works.

When Studio is released, will it offer the same basic functions (and slickness) Meedio currently has? I do agree with someone's earlier post that Meedio is the one to beat. If Meedio's TV app is as good as their main menu app, or as good as SageTV, it's going to be stiff competition for Sage.

From the limited impression I've gotten from Studio, I've wondered, "is this really what I need?"

Signed,

a license-owning SageTV fan, a licensing-owning Meedio fan, and Sage Studio skeptic.

[JasonJoel]

Well, if Sage doesn't start supporting more types of media (Windows Media, Real, Quick Time, etc) it will NEVER be a good choice for a full media front end. Regardless how slick they make the interface.

*IF* that is the long term plan for Sage (to make it is a full media front end), then that would be my recommendation - more media types, starting with Windows Media.

But, that is just my $0.02, and the reason I use programs other than Sage for EVERYTHING outside of PVR...

Jason Bottjen

[jmeeks]

I fully appreciate Dan and Jeff's position and wish them well with their endeavours as their successes in turn have so far become our benefit.

I do have a question for the rest of you though because I don't understand the position.

Why does everyone want to integrate more media types ad front end functionality into 1 program that currently does PVR exceptionally well. When I want to watch TV, I watch TV (using SageTV), when I want to listen to music, I use a different application for that. I guess I don't appreciate the benefit some of you do having an all in one system. I would just like to learn from your perspective.

Thanks,

[mostlyfodder]

jmeeks-

I'm glad you brought that up. great point. in fact i agree with you, but didn't think to ask for what i truly want.

I'd actually rather continue using two separate apps if possible. i wish sage would strip the mp3 and photographs and other media stuff out of sagetv so that i could continue using it as only a pvr.

I honestly doubt that meedio's TV is going to be as good as Sagetv, and i also doubt that sage studio's functionality (outside of the pvr) will match that of a meedio.

Of course, i support sage's right to do what they like and am just offering my feedback in case the developers wonder, "What might one customer want expect from our little program?"

[jominor]

Originally posted by jmeeks
I fully appreciate Dan and Jeff's position and wish them well with their endeavours as their successes in turn have so far become our benefit.

I do have a question for the rest of you though because I don't understand the position.

Why does everyone want to integrate more media types ad front end functionality into 1 program that currently does PVR exceptionally well. When I want to watch TV, I watch TV (using SageTV), when I want to listen to music, I use a different application for that. I guess I don't appreciate the benefit some of you do having an all in one system. I would just like to learn from your perspective.

Thanks,

It is nice and convenient to be able to perform all these activities from a common interface. For example, when you want to edit email, you don't launch a separate application to edit it. I don't even think it is a so much have Sage do everything, but allow others to integrate into a common master app, like Meedio.

For example, I would have no problem using a different program to listen to internet radio, if I could invoke in Sage using a "Listen to Jazz station" menu option and my remote as opposed to putting Sage into sleep mode, pulling out my wireless mouse, and launching whatever I use to listen to music.

Sage is a TV app, yet I can view archived shows in it. Frey has at least provided a message driven interface that allows one to control sage so that sage integrate with other apps, but I think many basically wish to know if they can use Sage as a front-end.

This abililty was mention in a htpcnews.com interview late last year. In fact, I believe that Dan K, said specifically that one could replace myHTPC with a SageTV/Studio combination.

We just want to see it.

[ToonGal]

Originally posted by Narflex
ToonGal, I actually did send you a personal email about a day before you started this thread.....guess you don't check the hotmail account you sub'd to the forums with.

@narflex:
Now that is ironic... I do check my hotmail account, but more weekly that daily. Most of my incoming mail for this account is "Please send me this [cartoon, TV show, comic book]" and generally not time sensitive. That was on the agenda for today, but after my daily activities of forum reading. Checked e-mail, received yours, and will respond after thread processing. Thx, hun.

Originally posted by kny3twalker
Sorry did not know future Whinning got you Studio

@knt3twalker:
Wow. I'm having a hard time keeping track of exacly HOW MANY ways I'm offended by this post.
1) "future Whinning" (sic) - read my post carefully. I don't care if I ever get studio. That has nothing to do with my post. I'm a highly successful multiple-company entrepreneur who is giving advice, based on my experience, to a 2-man company on the verge of potential greatness. My missive was to encourage them to help 'us' help them. Nothing more, nothing less.
2) Read what you quote, since you obviously didn't. Narflex said, "I actually did send you a personal email about a day before you started this thread. I confirmed it. It was sent about 1.5 days before this thread started. In my opinion it was sent because of my programs that are trying to extend the interface (read the customization section: movie showtimes & comic strips), and my inability to do more without more information. Looks like Jeff understood this thread's message before I even wrote it.
Man, I'm pissed about this one and have more to say, but I've already given it more attention that it is worth...

Originally posted by ErsatzTom
future whining or, perhaps, building innovative and cool utilities and sharing them with the community.

@ErsatzTom:
When you're angry, you can write paragraph after paragraph. (I edited out #3-5 in the previous section.) I am ashamed that all I can write here is a heart-felt, "Thanks, hun!"

Originally posted by Grey_Goose
I'd just like to see a master STV which had the capability to call smaller STV "modules" from a config file. That way people don't have to choose "this" or "that".

@Grey_Goose:
A good summary from someone who not only read my initial thread, but understood what I wanted. I read somewhere on the forum an opinion that a potential issue with Studio being released to the masses could be the splintered modified STV's that don't work well together. It takes the work of yet another STV developer, like Opus' MalDude hybrid, to reintegrate the work of others.
This is exactly why I spent my time developing independant stand-alone modules, on the hope that like the Weather addition, they can become the single standard to be integrated into all STVs. It was this fractured STV modularization that led me initially to say 'rewrite Studio if necessary', since it looks like work product has to be exclusive instead of inclusive.

Originally posted by JasonJoel
Heh, I would like to think it is because her initiative.... But point well taken.

@JasonJoel:
IMHO, initiative, yes; "point well taken", no. See my opinion on "point well taken" in the knt response for my rebuttal to this... At least you were 1/2 right...

Originally posted by dkardatzke
As always I appreciate everyone's passion towards SageTV. It's customers like you that keep us working towards improving the product to help spread the word about SageTV. As I hope you all can appreciate, we are also a growing company and have many opportunities in front of us, many of which we cannot share at this time. We are committed to making SageTV a continued success and our full-time efforts are focused on achieving that success.

Our plans are to share information when it's ready to be shared and to make public betas available once functionality is complete. I hope you can continue to have patience and just know that we are working on some great things to improve the product and increase penetration. So keep an eye out for announements in the coming weeks on new features and additional hardware support that will come with future point versions for 2.0. As for everything else, keep spreading the word about SageTV and know that we are working on good things to come.

@dkardatzke:
A responsive, thoughtful, slick response. I don't think I could have gotten a more appropriate / rewarding response had I typed it myself. Given you only have two employees (to my knowledge), I don't think you could build a more potent combination of talent than you two have. Don't see any missing parts in the symbiosis of your dichotomous skills.
Didn't meet you at the show, but been impressed w/ everything I've seen from online (announcements, forum replies, interviews, etc.), Dan. I'll make it a point to drop by and say 'hi' if you're in CES in '05.
Thank you VERY much for reading my letter in the spirit in which it was intended. I am a big fan of the company people, product, and cult-ish environment you've created. Thanks for the feedback and keep up the good work. As I mentioned in the first post, I have infinite patience when excellence is the result; let us know what we can do to help you get there.

Originally posted by mostlyfodder
If Meedio's TV app is as good as their main menu app, or as good as SageTV, it's going to be stiff competition for Sage.
From the limited impression I've gotten from Studio, I've wondered, "is this really what I need?"
a license-owning SageTV fan, a licensing-owning Meedio fan, and Sage Studio skeptic.

@mostlyfodder:
"The main premise of my argument is that I view Meedio as a much larger threat/competitor than SnapStream," I wrote. You have elucidated exactly my similar concerns. Meedio is SO well thought out at the 'glue' level. I think Studio was probably well concieved, but not at the same level of scope. Hard to tell, but you've restated my exact concern. The good news (for Sage) is that as clever as Pablo is, writing a PVR from scratch that will rival Sage will take time, as well as effort. The bad news (for Sage) is that my opinion technical of Pablo rivals that of my opinion for Jeff. The good news (for me) is that competition of this calibur promotes excellence for the consumer. Interesting times ahead.

Originally posted by jmeeks
Why does everyone want to integrate more media types ad front end functionality into 1 program that currently does PVR exceptionally well. When I want to watch TV, I watch TV (using SageTV), when I want to listen to music, I use a different application for that. I guess I don't appreciate the benefit some of you do having an all in one system. I would just like to learn from your perspective.

@jmeeks:
My response is very similar to mostlyfodder's. In my own case, I have no use for the entire mp3 / "junk" section. Not as convinced that this is useful to me either. For my own usage, I want to use SageTV as my video media center, as well as my PVR. I take a lot of my recordings (mostly PBS Kids things, and other material for my son), edit them down (commercials, whitespace before / after), reencode them, and build a library of things on my HTPC server. So I want SageTV to be able to view not only my PVR recordings, but my own personally created and "other obtained" video files.
It is in this respect that Meedio is a necessity for me and the synergy with Sage would be of great benefit. While Sage is able to import and play these files, that is about all it is good for. Here's a key feature SageTV should outright reverse engineer from Meedio, to perfect complement their product.

- Media import lacks the ability to organize these files. I have almost 1TB on my server, mostly video information, and SageTV basically slops my 100s/1000s of files in one long unorganized listing.

- Media import lacks the ability to provide information about these files. With myHTPC (Meedio predecessor), they gave ".my" files to give infomration about each individual file. Meedio has remained .my compatible, but expanded their scope in the new version. SageTV doesn't even allow open file information about the recorded shows, never mind external things.

- Media import configuration is rather weak. For the PBS Kids show Between The Lions, my file format naming convention is: "Between The Lions - 1x01 - Pecos Bill Cleans Up The West [ToonGal].mpg". The Meedio import function allows me to configure info to cull from the file name (<show name> - <season>x<ep#> - <show title> [<encoder>]). Very slick...

My main HTPC s/w usage cracks down as following:
- Front-end interface: Meedio. It's clever and it rocks.
- PVR: SageTV. nuff said.
- Video library: ZoomPlayer / Media Player Classic (media format dependant)
- DVD: Intervideo WinDVD 6
- Music Jukebox: MusicMatch
- Pictures: some generic picture viewer. forget, maybe Meedio
- "Utilities" (weather, comic strips, showtimes, comic books) -> Meedio plug-ins

So I'm clear, I don't think SageTV should be an HTPC swiss army knife. Worse, I think it should completely abandon future development on many of the things it does (Music Jukebox, DVD, pictures) since it doesn't add value to the core PVR product.

Here's what would provide good synergy with the core PVR product, which exists in SageTV, but Meedio done better.
1) Archived shows.
- ANY level of organization to this. Don't understand the difference to the 'archive' vs. 'recordings' section as it is, except the 'recordings' section is so much better organized / utilized.
- Archive shows should externalize the information from wiz.bin, rename the file to user-specified, and separate from the 'recordings'. Probably media library section for them.
- Add .my-ish type external support, so information can be preserved.
2) Media library.
- Add .my-ish type external support, so information can be added / edited / displayed / organized.
- Organization of ANY sort, like the 'recordings' sections in the STVs are, instead of just "list"
- Configurable file naming convention information import / export.
3) Plug-ins.
- An open architecture common UI approach to allow users to be able to add what they want.
- Standardized interface to all STVs.

Like in Meedio, this would be the perfect approach to HTPC expansion; people write plug-ins for things they want to add. TV, Weather, comics, whatever, are all modules that add to the environment. I think mp3, pictures, etc, could all be removed from the proprietary interface. Keep that to just PVR. But give the UI a standard way to integrate. I think Studio is probably hooks into Java that allow me to customize my environment, but this isn't what I think about with plug-ins.

Just some thoughts to address that issue. Great idea jmeeks. Maybe I should have started a new thread for this new line of thought process. Oh well.

Been at the keyboard forever on this response. Well done to those with the stamina to have made it this far.

[kny3twalker]

Read what you quote, since you obviously didn't. Narflex said, "I actually did send you a personal email about a day before you started this thread. I confirmed it. It was sent about 1.5 days before this thread started.

That is why it is FUTURE Whining(guess you do not understand my statement cause no one knows the future)

In my opinion it was sent because of my programs that are trying to extend the interface (read the customization section: movie showtimes & comic strips), and my inability to do more without more information.

I said I agreed with that for the most part

[Morgan111]

Well ll I can say is, Ditto.

Originally posted by mostlyfodder
Hi-

Here is one *very* happy customer's opinion:

1- SageTV is the best PVR available right now.
2- Meedio is the best front-end menu/mp3-management system/etc.

These two apps work great together, and I think both have ambitious plans to add the functionalities that are currently offered by the other. Meedio's developing a TV app, and Sage has Studio in the works.

When Studio is released, will it offer the same basic functions (and slickness) Meedio currently has? I do agree with someone's earlier post that Meedio is the one to beat. If Meedio's TV app is as good as their main menu app, or as good as SageTV, it's going to be stiff competition for Sage.

From the limited impression I've gotten from Studio, I've wondered, "is this really what I need?"

Signed,

a license-owning SageTV fan, a licensing-owning Meedio fan, and Sage Studio skeptic.

[mostlyfodder]

*sigh*. I've just written & erased an overly-complex note. Before I start again I'll make a simple disclaimer: SageTV is the highest quality PVR currently available and I thank the developers for it.

A dominant theme of this thread seems to be this: SageTV needs to be stripped down to its PVR-only functionality. As ToonGal aptly said, the extra stuff simply does not add value. I know an awful lot of work has gone into it, but I wonder what percentage of people are using it? When and if another lean-and-mean PVR comes along, Sage could lose customers.

The SageTV menu system is too complicated. My roommate has yet to pick up the (all-in-wonder) remote. She won't use it! Watching TV should be as simple as using Google.com. You go there, type in a search term, and get results. It's one of the keys to their success. (And think of yahoo.com, too.)

If reliability and great features are at opposite ends of a spectrum, SageTV's reliability is perfect. I don't think I've ever crashed it. But now I'd love to see them cut the fat.

I *do* believe there is a (future) place for the additional functionality, but the quality of the additional features at this time just isn't there and they should be removed. Or, a SageTV "light" should be released for those of us (a majority?) who don't need the extra feature set.

I can't even easily customize the menus to hide the 7 or 8 unneeded features. The main screen of SageTV should be iPod-simple, and perhaps should look like something this:

1- Watch TV
2- TV Guide
3- Recorded Programs

I don't think my friends need anything more than those 3 starting menu options to have a great PVR experience. But I want SageTV to be the one to give it to them.

Before Meedio was released, I was wondering if Sage Studio would make Meedio obsolete. That didn't happen, and there was some pressure on Pablo -- but he did deliver. Now I'm more excited about MeedioTV than I expected to be. I do remember the discussions regarding a Meedio/Sage partnership. I can only hope that Sage is developing MeedioTV!

Or perhaps Sage Studio will be more lean and mean than we currently know? Maybe it will be more extensible (or reducible!) than we know. Looking at the excellent work that MLBDUDE and some others have done shows what Studio is capable of achieving. But I think in this thread we're discussing a different kind of goal for how we'd like to use Sage, and I'd love to hear that our ideas can be implemented.

-fodder {a 90% satisfied, license-owning SageTV fan.}

------------------------------------------------

EDIT- SOME OF THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED BEFORE. THE THREAD LINKS ARE PASTED BELOW:

http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthr...?threadid=7073

http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthr...&threadid=6575

http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthr...6011#post56011

[Grey_Goose]

Sorry, I've got to throw my vote for keeping & refining the MP3 & picture album features. My system is hooked up to my stereo & the mp3 player (when working) -would- be perfect for parties. That being said, please fix it. The picture album is a throwback feature for us to days of home slide shows. All of our friends have 'ooh'ed and 'aaah'ed over that more than the pvr feature.

/me heads over to the meedio website

[sleight42]

Perhaps I'm a fringe user as well but I actually want Sage to be a more usable Swiss Army knife. My fiance is ambominable with computers but, as Sage becomes easier to use, as far as she's concerned, it's just as easier to use TiVo (although it isn't there yet). The more she can do from Sage, the better.

[JasonJoel]

Toongal -

Well, I wasn't saying I understand your point. Actually, I wasn't talking to you at all - I was talking to kny3twalker, which is why I replied to HIS post.

I said I understand his point, and still do, and still agree with the intent of his comment.

But whatever. Keep up the good work. Lot of cool stuff going on.

Jason

[mostlyfodder]

sleight42-

i think you've got a good point that simplicity is best and one way to achieve this is to make Sage a swiss-army knife of functionality.

What I would rather, however, is that the extra functionality IS AVAILABLE to those who like it (i.e. your family) but removeable for those who don't like it (i.e. me!). I think a modular approach would be best.

One final thought- Since many people are using multiple programs on their HTPC's (i.e. dvd player, mp3 player, etc..), the goal of any program for an HTPC should be modularity and ease-of-integration with other programs.

I don't think SageTV plays well with others.

For instance, it's confusing for people to see the menu choice "DVD Player" from both within Meedio (where i need it) AND ALSO from within Sage (where I don't need it.)

Now I do think that Sage Studio will solve this problem, but I've thus far seen only a few people working with it and it does not seem all that easy to modify. In fact, I've even heard mention that one can extend Sage Studio with Java. Now that seems like a great idea, but I really need to just have a simple customize-able menu system or wizard or something. Studio just seems a bit complicated. But I don't really know exactly what studio's going to be so it's just conjecture.

I also agree w/ JasonJoel- "Keep up the good work. Lots of cool stuff going on."

-fodder

[jominor]

Originally posted by sleight42
Perhaps I'm a fringe user as well but I actually want Sage to be a more usable Swiss Army knife. My fiance is ambominable with computers but, as Sage becomes easier to use, as far as she's concerned, it's just as easier to use TiVo (although it isn't there yet). The more she can do from Sage, the better.

Well, my wife picked up Sage with no problem. Hell, my mother-in-law, who is terrible with computers, picked up Sage after a 1 minute overview from me.

How EXACTLY can it be easier!?!? A mental telepathy interface?

Don't blame to tool for the weakness in the craftsman.

[samgreco]

I am fairly new to Sage. I have been using it less than one month. I love it as a PVR. Especially the client / server setup. I find it almost as easy as the UltimateTV box that I had to give up. Too many trees at the new house.

However...

I am also very frustrated by it. I use xLobby as a frontend. The multi-zone support is very important to me. The database for media is great. I also like it's potential for total home control, etc. Steven has done a great job.

I cannot firgure out a way to marry the two that makes any sense. And I cannot, will not, use the MP3 player built into Sage. It just doesn't cut it.

So, why can't I just cut Sage down to just the PVR? As much as I hate to waste the money I spent, I am seriously watching for other solutions. There aren't any yet that are as good (PVR) as Sage, but who knows.

If I could cut Sage down to only the PVR, this wouldn't be an issue.

Just my 2 cents.

Sam

[jominor]

Originally posted by samgreco
I am fairly new to Sage. I have been using it less than one month. I love it as a PVR. Especially the client / server setup. I find it almost as easy as the UltimateTV box that I had to give up. Too many trees at the new house.

However...

I am also very frustrated by it. I use xLobby as a frontend. The multi-zone support is very important to me. The database for media is great. I also like it's potential for total home control, etc. Steven has done a great job.

I cannot firgure out a way to marry the two that makes any sense. And I cannot, will not, use the MP3 player built into Sage. It just doesn't cut it.

So, why can't I just cut Sage down to just the PVR? As much as I hate to waste the money I spent, I am seriously watching for other solutions. There aren't any yet that are as good (PVR) as Sage, but who knows.

If I could cut Sage down to only the PVR, this wouldn't be an issue.

Just my 2 cents.

Sam

What is it you are trying to do? For example, myHTPC can be used to control Sage. It integrates quite well thanks to two things:
1) Sage's ability to accept an event parameter and
2) Opus's SendMessage[?] utility that can batch commands

With these, you can control sage in a front end.

[sleight42]

Originally posted by mostlyfodder
sleight42-

i think you've got a good point that simplicity is best and one way to achieve this is to make Sage a swiss-army knife of functionality.

What I would rather, however, is that the extra functionality IS AVAILABLE to those who like it (i.e. your family) but removeable for those who don't like it (i.e. me!). I think a modular approach would be best.

One final thought- Since many people are using multiple programs on their HTPC's (i.e. dvd player, mp3 player, etc..), the goal of any program for an HTPC should be modularity and ease-of-integration with other programs.

I don't think SageTV plays well with others.

For instance, it's confusing for people to see the menu choice "DVD Player" from both within Meedio (where i need it) AND ALSO from within Sage (where I don't need it.)

While I definitely believe that SageTV could become a Smart TV, for the computer unsavvy, I can see where PC luminaries would prefer a more streamlined system. Obviously, leaving the option up to the individual user would be ideal.

By way of caveat, I must admit that I have a tendency to speak in partial thoughts, taking much of the context for granted. I realize that this is a far from ideal way to hold a conversation.

As a software engineer by trade, I tend to consider modularity an unstated requirement for most every system that I construct.

Having been inspired by this thread in particular to peek at Meedio (or at least the site), myHTPC/Meedio's big advantage appears to be its robust base of plug-in developers. Product unseen, this implies to me that Meedio already supports a robust mix-and-match style of plug-in architecture that speaks to its beginning as an open source project (I have my history correct here, yes?). As you stated, this openness simply does not exist within SageTV's current design.

However, I imagine that it will take SageTV far less time to open their architecture than it would require for Meedio to develop decent video scheduled recording and playback features. I am essentially echoing ToonGal's earlier ruminations .

Now I do think that Sage Studio will solve this problem, but I've thus far seen only a few people working with it and it does not seem all that easy to modify. In fact, I've even heard mention that one can extend Sage Studio with Java. Now that seems like a great idea, but I really need to just have a simple customize-able menu system or wizard or something. Studio just seems a bit complicated. But I don't really know exactly what studio's going to be so it's just conjecture.

From a few interchanges with mlbdude, I've parsed out that Studio will allow you to extend Sage using any language. I believe that the connection between a "plug-in" and SageTV is by way of XML and not via a programattic API.

It's not really fair for us to speculate on Studio's interface and feature set. I believe that the current set of Studio testers are under something NDA-ish. We'll just have to wait and see how Studio comes out of the gates before we can say whether or not it is usable for non-coders.

[samgreco]

What is it you are trying to do? For example, myHTPC can be used to control Sage. It integrates quite well thanks to two things:

First, as I stated, is multi-zone support, which Meedio / myHTPC does not have.

Second, I would like to strip Sage down to just the PVR portion.

I will look at Opus' SendMessage utility. Maybe I can integrate into xLobby using that.

[mostlyfodder]

samgreco-

there's an excellent guide on the meedio forums that tells how to integrate sage with meedio. i think it might help you integrate w/ xlobby. basically, the guide explains how to launch sage directly into the guide mode, or directly into the recorded programs menu. here's the link; hope it helps:

http://www.meedio.com/forum/viewtopi...=120549#120549

-fodder