Another epgless day in the UK.

[ron.smythe]

Hi,

Now the EPG in the UK has long been a problem, as with many outside the USA, it is now at a point where I am considering my options, as I do not have the time to fix errors in the XMLTV downloader every time the Radio Times has a formatting error.

So far the options are:

1. Move away from Sage, to Show Shifter as they have DigiGuide support. Not a great option as it limits me to one turner, but for experiments I've done it is less hassle to maintain.

2. Move back to Tivo, yeah like I really want to do that.

3. Buy a Microsoft MCPC, not a bad option most of the hard work is done for you and there are abilities to record to DVD and share data across a network. But expensive and only one turner.

I think at the end of the day, Sage is a great product, I have gone to great lengths to keep my setup running and have built it as a 2 turner 1.5TB 2 client system, and with the new interface and ability to change it, I should be able to not only recommend it to my friends, but also my father, that has no skills in computer what so ever.

However the EPG is a huge let down, without it all bets are off, no decent epg means I record 8 copies of the same episode of 'The Bill' a day unless I mark them as watched. No decent epg means I dare not record using intelligent recordings though fear of accumulating so much data as to make it pointless. With no decent epg I get my ar*e bitten off every time something my wife wants recorded is not.

So Frey, I call upon you to help us out. What can we do, I do not want to muck around with XMLTV, and I am willing to pay for the data as it is important to gain decent epg to make my systems investment worth while. Can you confirm if you are working on ways for other countries to gain access to epg, and if so a time frame.

And anyone, do you know of any ways into which to integrate DigiGuide into Sage?

Many thanks for listen to my rants on this epgless day!

[nielm]

According to Digiguide...
Their licence they have with their EPG information suppliers expressly forbid them from letting the EPG information get outside of their program or outside of a web brosers...
Their web page copyright/T+Cs also expressly forbid automated download of listings data. (http://www.digiguide.com/general/terms_websites.shtml 3.g)

Showshifter does not have integrated EPG with Digiguide: you have to use the Digiguide program (which is a desktop app and is not TV friendly), and it then triggers manual recordings in Showshifter. BTV 'integration' is similar. As sage currently has no manual recordings external API, this is not possible (and would not work well with Sage anyway: all the recordings would be nameless!)

(see this post for Digiguide forum links: http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthr...3328#post23328 )

If you want to try setting up your own data source for UK based Sage, Myth and Showshifter and BTV users, www.bds.tv will be willing to sell you the info. You never know, you might be able to make a profit They also have limited 'free' listings, but I have never been able to set up an account to be able to download them.

According to the Digiguide people in their forums:

The market value for ~90 channels, 7 days in advance, is around £15,000pa. Setup is normally a couple of £K no matter who you go to.

I don't think the number of Sage users in the UK will be enough to cover this:cost: this forum only has ~2000 members, most of which are in the US...

PS: you could always report the tv_grab_uk_rt failings in the SF project -- I frequently submit patches for bugs I see+fix, but I have not seen any recently, but then I only grab BBC1 and BBC2...

[ruel]

Showshifter now has what it calls its ShowGuide EPG which is integrated in Showshifter 3, but which requires that you use XMLTV to get the TV listings. ShowGuide is like an early clumsy EPG. There is a PIP in the upper right hand corner like you have in SageTV for seeing the actual TV picture, but the PIP is so small that it's like thumbnail icon size that you almost don't notice it. The navigation in the ShowGuide EPG is also a little clumsy when using a remote control and can take forever from going from one page of the grid to the next whether going vertically or horizontally. If you use Showshifter, stick with DigiGuide (UK, Europe) or TitanTV (U.S.) because if you've used the SageTV EPG, the BeyondTV EPG, or any of the digital cable or satellite EPGs, then you probably will be disappointed in the current early version of ShowGuide. I would guess that ShowGuide may improve in future versions. Although I paid for Showshifter 3, I found myself going back to Showshifter 2 because of how the TV listings didn't seem to work correctly in ShowGuide and in the onscreen TV show info when you change the channels. (On the channel changing with onscreen TV show info, it may probably work okay for others but it didn't work well for me.)

As for DigiGuide, there are BeyondTV users who convert DigiGuide data to XMLTV and then import the XMLTV data into the BeyondTV EPG.
http://forums.snapstream.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12783
And then you have SageTV users who are using a xmltv plugin to get XMLTV data into SageTV:
http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...&threadid=6601
You can take it from there to see if you can put both of them together. It may look like too much for some people.

FYI, although I'm in the U.S., I still use and pay for a yearly subscription for the DigiGuide software but I have to use XMLTV to get the TV listings data into DigiGuide because the DigiGuide folks found it too expensive to continue paying Tribune Media for the U.S. TV listings data and also since there were apparently not enough actual DigiGuide users in the U.S. to continue getting the U.S. TV listings data. That's at the business level. But at the user level for those in U.S., you can get the TV listings data for "free" personal usage and legally from Tribune Media's Zap2it but where the user has to fill out a survey form every few months in order to continue using the "free" service.

ruel

[ron.smythe]

Hi Nielm,

Thanks for you quick response, yes I understand what you are saying about DigiGuide, and showshifter intergration (wrong word to use should had really been control) but it still works better then XMLTV.

As for setting up my own service, sorry not in the market for that, and that is also the problem with XMLTV, I am trying to be an and users that has an interface that I can contol my TV recording from.

As with bug fix's for XMLTV, you're right they are dame fast, but I only run the windows program veriosn not perl, and I do not want to have to check my PC everyday for any errors that have occured. Add on top of that that I am downloading all SKy channels bar Adult and sport, you can see the is a heck of a lot of data to download.

I would have to say if the market for Sage is not currently that strong and thus the epg data for the uk is not going to be forth coming, then maybe it is time to go back to tivo or dare I say it Sky+.

PS: Maybe Digiguide was a bad idea, I've read the areas you've pointed out.

[ron.smythe]

Hi ruel,

thanks for the links, looks like digi guide have managed to pull the plug on that Idea. I think I might as well give up and go Sky Plus, shame it was fun while it lasted.

[nielm]

Originally posted by ron.smythe
I think I might as well give up and go Sky Plus, shame it was fun while it lasted.

Lucky you: at least you have an alternative... Here in Belgium, there is no such thing as SkyPlus or Tivo, and the XMLTV data source is even worse than RT

[leejsmith]

Would there be a way to use the Gemstar GUIDE service

http://www.europe.guideplus.com/uk/h...satellite.html

it's broadscast on itv via the aerial and eurosport on sky.

Nvidia are using this service for the nvtv pci capture card. Would this work with sage tv ? it comes with the software to download the gemstar epg and remote control.

Ati used the gemstar service in north america only.

[leejsmith]

I also found this software for epg in europe.

Nextview EPG service

Currently nexTView EPG is transmitted by the following TV stations:

in Germany and Austria: Kabel1, RTL-II, EuroNews (coverage: apx. 32 networks)
in Switzerland: SF1, TSR1, TSI1, EuroNews, Kabel1 (coverage: apx. 37 networks)
in France: Canal+, M6, EuroNews, TV5 (coverage: 8 networks)
in Belgium: VT4 (coverage: 32 networks)
in Turkey: TRT-1 (coverage: 17 networks)

it has xmltv export support.

[silkshadow]

I agree with the original poster. I just wrote here: http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...st.php?p=73747 about how Sage really needs to support XMLTV better and natively.

[leejsmith]

Originally Posted by silkshadow

I agree with the original poster. I just wrote here: http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...st.php?p=73747 about how Sage really needs to support XMLTV better and natively.

in that post you talk about mce 2005 and xmltv procedure could you explain that for me.

[silkshadow]

in that post you talk about mce 2005 and xmltv procedure could you explain that for me.

Sure, your best bet would be to read this thread first:
http://www.htpc-gear.com/index.php?n...iewtopic&t=215. I am not sure how copesetic it is to do MCE stuff here, so PM me if you have any questions (you can also post there and I will answer). There are also two boards for MCE stuff:

http://www.thegreenbutton.com/ (their board software is very bad, you must use IE to search it)
http://xpmce.com/ (you must register to search it)

However, they are both rather unfriendly. Lots of very good people who post how to do stuff; but everyone ignores newbies and run-of-the-mill "help me please" questions and questions that are not opinion-based. They actually have a very Microsoft-personality feel ("we are so much better than you"). One of the many reasons Sage and this community is soooo much better.

However, for the non-tech female who lives with you, MCE2005 is less complicated and appeals to their asthetic taste far better (sorry Sage but its true). Even the remote makes them happier (in my experience anyway).

[nielm]

For the UK now, the data source IMHO is very good: RT and XMLTV (and Alan Birtles) have an understanding, and RT have a data source that has a stable format and needs very little parsing
(http://xmltv.radiotimes.com/xmltv/channels.dat, http://xmltv.radiotimes.com/xmltv/92.dat).

The next step would be a Sage Java EPG plugin that downloads the data direct from RT without involving XMLTV at all... (obviously the author (nor me) would need permission from RT to get the data).

(i am thinking 3 lineups: analogue, sky and freeview, with prefedined channel numbers for the last 2 to avoid channel remapping)

[leejsmith]

and if the data was captured direct into sage and at no point raw data this should satisfy any data protection issues. if this was the case then RT could offer as download service like they do for he pocket pc application.
(do they still do that?)

(rubs chin) very intersting hmmm

do you have any contact details for RT or xmltv

Originally Posted by nielm

For the UK now, the data source IMHO is very good: RT and XMLTV (and Alan Birtles) have an understanding, and RT have a data source that has a stable format and needs very little parsing
(http://xmltv.radiotimes.com/xmltv/channels.dat, http://xmltv.radiotimes.com/xmltv/92.dat).

The next step would be a Sage Java EPG plugin that downloads the data direct from RT without involving XMLTV at all... (obviously the author (nor me) would need permission from RT to get the data).

(i am thinking 3 lineups: analogue, sky and freeview, with prefedined channel numbers for the last 2 to avoid channel remapping)

[nielm]

RT are not so much worried about keeping the data encrypted (otherwise they would not put it on an unprotected webpage!) but they are worried about republishing...
both Alan Birtles' grabber and XMLTV have this disclaimer:

All data is the copyright of the Radio Times website
<http://www.radiotimes.com> and the use of this data is restricted to personal use only.

Alans grabber also mentions that the service may not remain free...

[leejsmith]

the grabber is fanstastic but my xmltv file has no channle information for each program

<channel id="">
<display-name>VH2</display-name>
</channel>

<programme start="20041211090000 +0000" stop="20041211093000 +0000" channel="">
<title>A Different Ball Game</title>
<sub-title>Martial Art of Deception</sub-title>
<desc>Capoeira is a martial art of contradictions and deception. Dr Luisa Elvira goes in search of the essence of the sport and meets the students who are using Capoeira to gain freedom.</desc>
<category>Documentary</category>
<length units="minutes">30</length>
</programme>


Do i have to domething else after the grab ?

sorry my bad i have to map the RT id's to the xmltv names

[birty]

hmm ive had a few people reporting haveing blank channel ids now, im going to have to look into this, as for producing another grabber directly for sage there is no need to obtain permission from radio times as long as the following conditions are met:

1. Can you make sure that there is a notice alongside the instructions that all data is the copyright of the Radio Times website (http://www.radiotimes.com) and that the use of this data is restricted to personal use only.

2. Also, to give you and your users some warning, we may have to look at implementing this as a paid-for service in the future. Of course, we will keep you up-to-date with any such developments.

3. Finally, as you have mentioned in the past can you code your applications to have a useful User-Agent so we can identify the different application using the data.

if anyone does want to develop a grabber you can contact me directly for canotact details and full details of the data file format

[birty]

version 2.10.2 should fix the problems with blank channel ids

[leejsmith]

there are no instructions telling you to that you have to map the RT id to the xmltv name when you download the software.
Once this is complete it works ok.

Is it possible to have a pre configured file for sky, cable and freeview digital ?

I should be easy to create a import direct into sage but i dont know if the .net developer at work codes in java too.

It is easy enough anyway.

One question do i have to run xmltv sort after or will sagetv do this for me.

Thanks for the info

Lee

[birty]

you shouldnt have to map the channels, there was a strange bug in 2.10 and 2.10.1 which meant that sometime the channel ids would be blank, if anyone wants to make maps for the channels and send them to me i will be happy to add them to the distribution. you shouldnt have to use xmltv sort as the grabber has options for which order to put the programs in, as far as i can remember sage needs you to sort by time

[leejsmith]

this is the file for my sky setup. I dont have all channles but whats left is rubbish.

AltChIds.txt
userchannels.txt

Would it be possible to add channles not supported by RT that are just programms every hour / half hour with blank details.

so at least you can see them in sagetv but not know what is on.