My Comparison on 9800 Pro Tv Out vs xCard

x[corwyn] · #1 07-22-2004, 10:45 AM

Last night after getting frustrated with having several people asking me to update them on my PVR project, I decided to see if I could brake the empasse by seeing if the quality was comparable using my ATi card off of my gaming rig. Once I did that I had straight S-Video out from both cards that I swapped back and forth from. Once I had it ready I pulled my roommate in there and I fired it off first with the video displaying out only through the 9800 pro which it was cool to finally have everything on one screen. Then I stopped the video, swictched the settings back through the xcard and rebooted. Once back up and running replayed the same clip, and the picture was crisper, the words were not blurred, everything stood out far better in a way that made my cruddy 27" look better than our Sony Wega downstairs.

I'd really like to find a way to capture the output between the 2 so that I can show the difference in quality. I would think that anything that makes it look better would be jumped all over. Instead when I see the BTV forums and these the xcard is treated like a wicked step child! It just blows me away that a superior product that is just made for this type of work is dismissed and we are told to settle for the crappier video out on TV cards which are at best most of the time is thrown in as an afterthought. I think the lamest excuse I saw was...Well the quality on video card TV Out is comparable to Tivo. If I wanted a Tivo I would have bought a Tivo. Irritating....

Opus4 · #2 07-22-2004, 11:07 AM

Actually, it has been known for quite some time that the quality of the Xcard's picture is vastly superior to that of the svideo out of almost all video cards. As far as I know, only the 350's output rivals it. I can't compare the Xcard ot teh 350, so I don't know how they really compare.

The real problem is that the UI is not currently displayed through the Xcard & many people do not want to have to have a monitor next to the TV to see the menus. I don't mind, since I have it there anyway for my kids' games/educational software.

The last I heard, Frey did not have any current plans to add support for an Xcard UI, but I think someone around here mentioned (I can't find the post at the moment) that Frey had told them that it might be possible in the future for someone to create a plugin to enable the UI on the Xcard.

I've been looking for info on how to write a program to interface with the Xcard, but I have not found any information on that. I know it is possible, since at least a few applications do so. If anyone knows of a source of such info, please either post it or PM me. Even if I don't end up doing the programming, I would like to gather the data so that _someone_ can do it.

- Andy

mlbdude · #3 07-22-2004, 11:13 AM

Since the SVideo out of your video card is only partially responsible for your video quality in that setup, it would be nice to hear the comparison with different decoders and deinterlacing methods.

I know on my system, I have it configured to look just as good as my old 350 did.

Opus4 · #4 07-22-2004, 11:23 AM

Are you still using the svideo out?

Maybe I shouldn't have used the phrase "vastly superior", but one thing I certainly liked was that I didn't have to do any tweaking -- installed it, chose it in SageTV, and the output was great. Not to mention that it is full hardware decoding, so very little cpu time is used for playback.

- Andy

mlbdude · #5 07-22-2004, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Opus4
Are you still using the svideo out?

Maybe I shouldn't have used the phrase "vastly superior", but one thing I certainly liked was that I didn't have to do any tweaking -- installed it, chose it in SageTV, and the output was great. Not to mention that it is full hardware decoding, so very little cpu time is used for playback.

- Andy

Still SVideo. However, you are right on the tweaking. I had to learn more than I ever really wanted to know about decoders. With the 350 it was pretty much plug and play.

Most of my video cards have hardware assist to keep CPU low, but I admit I disable it in favor of ffdshow.

x[corwyn] · #6 07-22-2004, 03:21 PM

Well I think 2 things need to be cleared up....

I honestly don't want to spend hours "tweaking". I have heard that dscaler might do ok.

Another thing is the 9800Pro is off of my gaming rig. I use a Geforce 2 GTS for my PVR, and the video out seemed about the same after doing this comparison. I am not buying a $200 video card for video out when I have a better card on the PVR box to do that already.

What information do you guys need to get that UI on there? I know its doable, since the guy at GBPVR did it. Apparently the developer for that seems to just kick ass at hardware encoding. Its a shame that Sage or BTV doesn't get with that guy and combine their products...If they did that I couldn't see a single reason why it would not be THE PVR software to have. Hell I work at a software company which all they do is get our software to work with all kinds of hardware. A couple of guys that code here owe me a few favors

sub · #7 07-22-2004, 05:29 PM

Quote:

What information do you guys need to get that UI on there? I know its doable, since the guy at GBPVR did it. Apparently the developer for that seems to just kick ass at hardware encoding. Its a shame that Sage or BTV doesn't get with that guy and combine their products...

I'm not sure whether XCard or MVP support is important to the Frey guys, but if they are interested in pursuing these sorts of features I may be able to help them out.

insomniac · #8 07-22-2004, 08:53 PM

Hey sub,

gj with gbpvr so far. You would be my absolute hero if you were to help us lowely sage users out with a MVP front end

.

BTW, do you have multi-card support? Ive tried to read as much as possible over on your site, but have never seen any info regarding multi-tuner support.

I.

Quote:

Originally posted by sub
I'm not sure whether XCard or MVP support is important to the Frey guys, but if they are interested in pursuing these sorts of features I may be able to help them out.

sub · #9 07-22-2004, 10:08 PM

Yes, I support multiple tuners.

kny3twalker · #10 07-22-2004, 10:29 PM

I would love to see Xcard and MVP support

I doubt we would see OSD issues like on the pvr 350 on the MVP
but what about the Xcard?

if it has no problems
these seem like much better choices and the cost is not much more than a pvr 350(when including a pvr 250/roslyn)
the MVP and Xcard also seem to support more formats than the pvr 350

and the pvr 350 seems dead in the water

mikejaner · #11 07-23-2004, 07:06 AM

I agree,
Sub you have done a great job with the three hardware decoding solutions. As a matter of fact, your the only one I know of to have software which supports that many decoders. I couldn't think of a better person to help the MVP push for Sage. Oh yeah, and Xcard help would be good too.

x[corwyn] · #12 07-23-2004, 11:29 AM

Hey Sub are you familiar with Pinnacle's ShowCenter? It is basically an xCard also that works like a MVP. It definitely is superior hardware to the MVP and if it were possible to get that as a client myself and any other users would be in absolute heaven!

Pinnacle's site on showcenter

TomsHardware on the showcenter

x[corwyn] · #13 07-23-2004, 11:59 AM

Found another interesting article...apparently the showcenter version 1.5 has built in PVR functionality. Wonder if it can be adapted to Sage.....

The article

SHS · #14 07-23-2004, 12:38 PM

The Client OS build in to ShowCenter unlike the MVP and yes It definitely is superior hardware decoder to the MVP but don't for get it cost $200 more and some may know this but the Roku HD1000 Digital Media Player cost the same I belive it base on ATI IGP chip which use be way too expensive.

x[corwyn] · #15 07-23-2004, 02:33 PM

The show center is $240 on Pricewatch where I can find the MVP for about $90. $150 is worth the component out and the Divx support don't you think? Still far cheaper than building a client PC and would look good and put out Dolby Digital sound too!

stanger89 · #16 07-23-2004, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by x[corwyn]
The show center is $240 on Pricewatch where I can find the MVP for about $90. $150 is worth the component out and the Divx support don't you think? Still far cheaper than building a client PC and would look good and put out Dolby Digital sound too!

Component out and Divx/DD/etc are all things a PC does very well, probably better than nearly anything else. It's really only SD video that PC's have trouble with.

SHS · #17 07-23-2004, 03:23 PM

Say shouldn't that be HD stanger89 SD is what we all ready doing

Opus4 · #18 07-23-2004, 03:26 PM

Not to put words in his mouth... but I think he meant SD, since it is all this interlacing/deinterlacing stuff that gets in the way for normal video card svideo output, isn't it? HD would just move on to monitor-style output.

- Andy

stanger89 · #19 07-23-2004, 03:28 PM

Sorry, meant SD output (S-Video/composite) is what PCs have trouble with, they can do HD/Component output as good as anything. I was trying to illustrate that there isn't a PQ reason to go with something like the Showcenter.

x[corwyn] · #20 07-23-2004, 04:06 PM

Ok.......

But the MVP does not have component output and doesn't support hardware Divx decoding. You have to have at least a 1.8ghz P4 for a Media MVP server. That makes it a Pain to share as a Sage Server Which is my plan to do. Apparently Dell has one coming out soon too. Whichever... The MVP will be bought soon at the house, but that might get relegated to garage or patio duty and will wind up with a showcenter or equivalent in the front room.

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