WMC Live TV Tuner

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by Tiki

I think a block diagram of the setup would be helpful. I think it works like this:


Get a capture device that supports cable card (like HDHR Prime) and install a cable card from your cable company.
Get a PC with Windows Media Center installed (this could be your Sage Server, or a different PC).
Get a WMC extender for each tuner in your cable card capture device.
Get an HDMI network encoder for each tuner in your cable card capture device (there are a bunch of these available from various Chinese companies).
Install OpenDCT somewhere (either the Sage Server PC or the WMC PC - could be same PC).

When you want to watch or record something, Sage will send a tuning request through this that will cause one of the WMC extenders to try to watch "live tv" on the requested channel. The WMC extender will trigger WMC to tune in the channel through an available HDHR Prime. The WMC extender doesn't need to be connected to a TV, the HDMI encoder grabs the signal directly from the HDMI cable, encodes it to h.264, and makes it available for streaming across the network. OpenDCT grabs the stream and saves it to a file for Sage to consume.

It should be noted that you don't need to use OpenDCT unless you're using one of those HDMI network encoders. This works with the Colossus and HD-PVR 2 too in conjunction with the ExeMultiTuner plugin.

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by nyplayer

Ok because it did happen again even with WGET.

I found a way to bring the playback to the foreground even if the something is overtop of it, so I'll put that in the next build. I expect to have something tonight. I'm also working out a way to ensure that stopping creates less of a race condition.

[EnterNoEscape]

I tested the changes well enough. The attachment on the first post has been updated. I don't think there will be much to improve after this one.

[nyplayer]

Originally Posted by EnterNoEscape

I tested the changes well enough. The attachment on the first post has been updated. I don't think there will be much to improve after this one.

Looking good thanks for the fix .... believe me I tried to break it but it is rock solid stop command and everything works... using Powershell.

[EnterNoEscape]

I noticed that the guide data that comes with WMC doesn't actually list all of the channels available, so if the channel doesn't tune in, double-check that it's even in the guide. Fortunately there are channel editors you can use to fix this.

Also, I finally tried H.264 on the DMA2200, it doesn't appear to support it, so stay away from that unit if you're in one of the markets that's mostly H.264. Based on this, I'm not going to buy a second one.

[nyplayer]

Originally Posted by EnterNoEscape

I noticed that the guide data that comes with WMC doesn't actually list all of the channels available, so if the channel doesn't tune in, double-check that it's even in the guide. Fortunately there are channel editors you can use to fix this.

Also, I finally tried H.264 on the DMA2200, it doesn't appear to support it, so stay away from that unit if you're in one of the markets that's mostly H.264. Based on this, I'm not going to buy a second one.

I didn't even bother to set the guide data in WMC when it asked me if I agree to use the guide I replied disagree. That way it just enabled about from 2-6000 channels with no data. I did this because all I use it for is SageTV and do not have to worry about enabling channels in WMC.

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by nyplayer

I didn't even bother to set the guide data in WMC when it asked me if I agree to use the guide I replied disagree. That way it just enabled about from 2-6000 channels with no data. I did this because all I use it for is SageTV and do not have to worry about enabling channels in WMC.

You are full of really good information. I will certainly be doing that.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Tiki

I think a block diagram of the setup would be helpful. I think it works like this:


Get a capture device that supports cable card (like HDHR Prime) and install a cable card from your cable company.
Get a PC with Windows Media Center installed (this could be your Sage Server, or a different PC).
Get a WMC extender for each tuner in your cable card capture device.
Get an HDMI network encoder for each tuner in your cable card capture device (there are a bunch of these available from various Chinese companies).
Install OpenDCT somewhere (either the Sage Server PC or the WMC PC - could be same PC).

When you want to watch or record something, Sage will send a tuning request through this that will cause one of the WMC extenders to try to watch "live tv" on the requested channel. The WMC extender will trigger WMC to tune in the channel through an available HDHR Prime. The WMC extender doesn't need to be connected to a TV, the HDMI encoder grabs the signal directly from the HDMI cable, encodes it to h.264, and makes it available for streaming across the network. OpenDCT grabs the stream and saves it to a file for Sage to consume.

Right, my point was, however, that all that is not much different than simply using an HD STB and a colossus/HD-PVR. It's still a single capture device recording live from a single tuner.

[trk2]

Originally Posted by EnterNoEscape

Also, I finally tried H.264 on the DMA2200, it doesn't appear to support it, so stay away from that unit if you're in one of the markets that's mostly H.264. Based on this, I'm not going to buy a second one.

Bummer. I was reading some old threads at the green button and it seems the HP X280N is the best of the non-Xbox extenders. The DMA2200 apparently does support H.264 but is limited on the container, supposedly MP4 will work.

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Right, my point was, however, that all that is not much different than simply using an HD STB and a colossus/HD-PVR. It's still a single capture device recording live from a single tuner.

It's basically the exact same thing, but it should be cheaper from a rental perspective. That's why I posted directions on how to use this with the capture devices that SageTV already supports directly for capturing the output of an HD STB as well as the HDMI network encoders. For me, it's like getting 6 STB's for less than half of the price of one.

Originally Posted by trk2

Bummer. I was reading some old threads at the green button and it seems the HP X280N is the best of the non-Xbox extenders. The DMA2200 apparently does support H.264 but is limited on the container, supposedly MP4 will work.

That's pretty much what I found out too. It doesn't really help me out since broadcast is going to be MPEG-TS.

[nyplayer]

One thing to avoid tuner conflicts when using The WMC Tuner is to pool your HD Prime tuners. SageTV will not know which one is being used.
Pooling is a must.

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by nyplayer

One thing to avoid tuner conflicts when using The WMC Tuner is to pool your HD Prime tuners. SageTV will not know which one is being used.
Pooling is a must.

I set up WMC to only use two of my tuners and am not using those tuners anywhere else, but given how you have things set up, I can see why this would be a must.

I do have plans to figure out a way to create a hybrid capture device that will use WMC when the channel is DRM'd and it will directly stream it when it's not. There are some interesting issues that come up that will pretty much require pooling for reliable operation. Basically what it would do is tune in the channel the non-DRM supporting way, then as soon as it detects the DRM, it stops the streaming and switches over to the HDMI encoder. It would also optionally keep track of these channels so the next time is a little faster. Obviously unless you have an HDMI encoder for every single tuner, you will still only have a few capture devices in SageTV that can capture all of the channels, but you get the best possible picture this way.

[nyplayer]

Originally Posted by EnterNoEscape

I set up WMC to only use two of my tuners and am not using those tuners anywhere else, but given how you have things set up, I can see why this would be a must.

I do have plans to figure out a way to create a hybrid capture device that will use WMC when the channel is DRM'd and it will directly stream it when it's not. There are some interesting issues that come up that will pretty much require pooling for reliable operation. Basically what it would do is tune in the channel the non-DRM supporting way, then as soon as it detects the DRM, it stops the streaming and switches over to the HDMI encoder. It would also optionally keep track of these channels so the next time is a little faster. Obviously unless you have an HDMI encoder for every single tuner, you will still only have a few capture devices in SageTV that can capture all of the channels, but you get the best possible picture this way.

I have my 6 Prime Tuners allocated to WMC .... I also have the 6 Prime tuners allocated to SageTV with pooling. I found that to be the most efficient method. I have only have the DRM Channels enabled in SageTV for the WMC HDMI tuner no other channels... I also have it set to the lowest merit.

[Telecore]

Originally Posted by EnterNoEscape

I do have plans to figure out a way to create a hybrid capture device that will use WMC when the channel is DRM'd and it will directly stream it when it's not. There are some interesting issues that come up that will pretty much require pooling for reliable operation. Basically what it would do is tune in the channel the non-DRM supporting way, then as soon as it detects the DRM, it stops the streaming and switches over to the HDMI encoder. It would also optionally keep track of these channels so the next time is a little faster. Obviously unless you have an HDMI encoder for every single tuner, you will still only have a few capture devices in SageTV that can capture all of the channels, but you get the best possible picture this way.

There's some really good stuff going on here. Have you also considered the case where you want to record two DRM shows at the same time, but you only have one Xbox360? You could tell WMC to record one show for later transcoding and transcode the other live. (of course there are issues with live viewing conflicts)

I also have another question - for me WMC is unreliable because the Ceton PCIe 6 tuner "disappears" fairly often, recordings get missed and a re-boot is required. (My other Ceton PCIe6 works fine with SageTV). Does the HDHR Prime+WMC exhibit this problem?

I've been following this and also the AndroidTV option with interest and I now have a HDHR Prime + Nvidia Shield working which can play DRM TV live. I saw that "adb" can be used over USB or "over network". Does this mean it would be possible to control an AndroidTV box via IP instead of USB?

I already have a reliable HD-PVR+STB solution for SageTV but am still considering getting an IPTV encoder. Has anyone actually used the BM3000 version yet?

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by Telecore

There's some really good stuff going on here. Have you also considered the case where you want to record two DRM shows at the same time, but you only have one Xbox360? You could tell WMC to record one show for later transcoding and transcode the other live. (of course there are issues with live viewing conflicts)

I also have another question - for me WMC is unreliable because the Ceton PCIe 6 tuner "disappears" fairly often, recordings get missed and a re-boot is required. (My other Ceton PCIe6 works fine with SageTV). Does the HDHR Prime+WMC exhibit this problem?

I've been following this and also the AndroidTV option with interest and I now have a HDHR Prime + Nvidia Shield working which can play DRM TV live. I saw that "adb" can be used over USB or "over network". Does this mean it would be possible to control an AndroidTV box via IP instead of USB?

I already have a reliable HD-PVR+STB solution for SageTV but am still considering getting an IPTV encoder. Has anyone actually used the BM3000 version yet?

1) WMC doesn't provide enough control do something like that; at least not reliably, so I don't want to pursue it.

2) I haven't seen what you're describing on WMC with my Prime tuner or my InfiniTV 6 PCIe card.

3) The trouble with adb over IP is that it's dependent on the device. For example, the Nexus Player requires a USB connection to enable the IP connection. As soon as it's rebooted, the procedure needs to be repeated. According to others, the shield will allow debugging over IP without the above procedure being a requirement. I've given up on this solution for the time being since WMC is the cheaper of the two options and a little more stable.

4) I believe that's the one that nyplayer purchased. I bought a BM3500 to see what top end would do; it's not all that special. I'd advise you to save your money and get the BM3000 which is about the same just without H.265 support.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by EnterNoEscape

I set up WMC to only use two of my tuners and am not using those tuners anywhere else, but given how you have things set up, I can see why this would be a must.

I do have plans to figure out a way to create a hybrid capture device that will use WMC when the channel is DRM'd and it will directly stream it when it's not. There are some interesting issues that come up that will pretty much require pooling for reliable operation. Basically what it would do is tune in the channel the non-DRM supporting way, then as soon as it detects the DRM, it stops the streaming and switches over to the HDMI encoder. It would also optionally keep track of these channels so the next time is a little faster. Obviously unless you have an HDMI encoder for every single tuner, you will still only have a few capture devices in SageTV that can capture all of the channels, but you get the best possible picture this way.

I did look a bit into the sagetv core to see what it would take to enable and disable channels within the same lineup on a give tuner. The thought being that you could use the same lineup for the direct cablecard devices, as well as the DRM devices, but have a property/api setting that allowed setting what physical channels a given tuner could actually tune. I don't think it will be that difficult, as it appears the scheduler makes a call to ask what tuners can tune a given channel, and it then returns a list of them... Just have to process this availability question in that call, as well as make a property to list them (mmc/??/??/available_channels). Then, a process could run on the cablecard tuner to to periodic scans and mark which channels are available, and which are not.

This is likely better than having it done at the network encoder level, because the sage scheduler will be fully aware of availability at schedule time, instead of hope-and-a-prayer of simply asking a channel to be recorded, and all of a sudden the single WMC or HD-PVR based encoder is tied up already.

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I did look a bit into the sagetv core to see what it would take to enable and disable channels within the same lineup on a give tuner. The thought being that you could use the same lineup for the direct cablecard devices, as well as the DRM devices, but have a property/api setting that allowed setting what physical channels a given tuner could actually tune. I don't think it will be that difficult, as it appears the scheduler makes a call to ask what tuners can tune a given channel, and it then returns a list of them... Just have to process this availability question in that call, as well as make a property to list them (mmc/??/??/available_channels). Then, a process could run on the cablecard tuner to to periodic scans and mark which channels are available, and which are not.

This is likely better than having it done at the network encoder level, because the sage scheduler will be fully aware of availability at schedule time, instead of hope-and-a-prayer of simply asking a channel to be recorded, and all of a sudden the single WMC or HD-PVR based encoder is tied up already.

My proposed solution would present a single capture device to SageTV that actually represents two different capture devices that use the same source. You would enable the DRM'd + non-DRM'd channels only for the special capture device. You would not have a situations whereby if any of them runs into DRM, any of them can fight over the HDMI encoder. That's just bad design.

The reference to pooling is because I can't always be sure what capture device WMC is going to grab. SageTV wouldn't know this either.

All of that being said, I kind of like your idea, but I think we would be best served if we could actually tell SageTV that two capture devices use the same source, so it knows that it can only schedule on one or the other. The only problem I could see happening then would be if the scheduler uses the non-DRM tuner, possibly resulting in a scheduling conflict when there really isn't one.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by EnterNoEscape

My proposed solution would present a single capture device to SageTV that actually represents two different capture devices that use the same source. You would enable the DRM'd + non-DRM'd channels only for the special capture device. You would not have a situations whereby if any of them runs into DRM, any of them can fight over the HDMI encoder. That's just bad design.

The reference to pooling is because I can't always be sure what capture device WMC is going to grab. SageTV wouldn't know this either.

All of that being said, I kind of like your idea, but I think we would be best served if we could actually tell SageTV that two capture devices use the same source, so it knows that it can only schedule on one or the other. The only problem I could see happening then would be if the scheduler uses the non-DRM tuner, possibly resulting in a scheduling conflict when there really isn't one.

Yeah, understand that I'm not really interested in trying to leverage WMC in any way, nor do I have any interest in trying to share a single tuner among different programs. My use case is having an HDHR Prime, plus a couple STBs with HD-PVR's. It seems you are going through this entire endeavor just so that the WMC method is only used on the DRM channels, but honestly, I don't think that is all that critical. As long as the lower quality source (in this case, the WMC or STB source) is set to a lower merit, is will be used last, unless a channel is ONLY available on that source. The incidence of a non-DRM'd program being recorded via the WMC/HD-PVR method should be pretty low anyway.

There IS a mechanism for sage to know that more than one input is using the same resource, but I don't believe it is exposed via network encoders. It is used for capture cards that have multiple inputs - RF, Composite, S-Video. In sage, the different inputs are subsets of the single MMC device (broken up by the video_crossbar_type). You can, for instance, have a single capture device, that uses it's tuner input for analog cable capture, with it's channel lineup, uses it's s-video input connencted to a STB, controlled via a USB-UIRT, with it's own channel lineup, and uses it's composite input connected to a security camera, with a single channel lineup for that input. Sage can arbitrate through these inputs just fine, and it is fully aware that they are all the same 'source'. There's just no way for a network encoder to know which crossbar input sage is asking for, as sage only passes the video_capture_device_name to the network encoder, which is common for all crossbar inputs. You very well MIGHT be able to trick sage into seeing multiple inputs on the network encoder, by passing crossbar-split mmc entries in the PROPERTIES response, but it would be up to the encoder to figure out which real input a given channel will require.

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Yeah, understand that I'm not really interested in trying to leverage WMC in any way, nor do I have any interest in trying to share a single tuner among different programs. My use case is having an HDHR Prime, plus a couple STBs with HD-PVR's. It seems you are going through this entire endeavor just so that the WMC method is only used on the DRM channels, but honestly, I don't think that is all that critical. As long as the lower quality source (in this case, the WMC or STB source) is set to a lower merit, is will be used last, unless a channel is ONLY available on that source. The incidence of a non-DRM'd program being recorded via the WMC/HD-PVR method should be pretty low anyway.

There IS a mechanism for sage to know that more than one input is using the same resource, but I don't believe it is exposed via network encoders. It is used for capture cards that have multiple inputs - RF, Composite, S-Video. In sage, the different inputs are subsets of the single MMC device (broken up by the video_crossbar_type). You can, for instance, have a single capture device, that uses it's tuner input for analog cable capture, with it's channel lineup, uses it's s-video input connencted to a STB, controlled via a USB-UIRT, with it's own channel lineup, and uses it's composite input connected to a security camera, with a single channel lineup for that input. Sage can arbitrate through these inputs just fine, and it is fully aware that they are all the same 'source'. There's just no way for a network encoder to know which crossbar input sage is asking for, as sage only passes the video_capture_device_name to the network encoder, which is common for all crossbar inputs. You very well MIGHT be able to trick sage into seeing multiple inputs on the network encoder, by passing crossbar-split mmc entries in the PROPERTIES response, but it would be up to the encoder to figure out which real input a given channel will require.

I didn't know that you can configure more than one crossbar per capture device. I thought you could just select one of the crossbars. OpenDCT actually is aware of what crossbar SageTV is asking for and actually presents two different crossbars for the HDMI encoder. I'll need to take a closer look at that. I've just never had a need for this in the past, so I never knew that could actually work, thanks for the tip.

I am also trying to save a substantial amount of money. I realize the STB route is the easier/tried path, but honestly this isn't that much harder and it's a lot cheaper especially in the long run.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by EnterNoEscape

I didn't know that you can configure more than one crossbar per capture device. I thought you could just select one of the crossbars. OpenDCT actually is aware of what crossbar SageTV is asking for and actually presents two different crossbars for the HDMI encoder. I'll need to take a closer look at that. I've just never had a need for this in the past, so I never knew that could actually work, thanks for the tip.

I am also trying to save a substantial amount of money. I realize the STB route is the easier/tried path, but honestly this isn't that much harder and it's a lot cheaper especially in the long run.

Okay, never noticed that the network encoder will include the crossname with the call, but it does appear to. If that's the case, than that really is all you'd need to have your network encoder know which device to use, and they'd be a shared resource. You still need a way to have it cleanly deal with the two different lineups, which for me is the bigger issue (making a copy of the cable lineup and simply enabling different channels is one thing, but then the copy is divorced from the original source, so lineup changes from the provider will not propagate to the copy. This is the reason I was investigating restricting channels by device, in addition to the lineups. (this would also help out those with multiple OTA tuners connected to different antenna's pointing in different directions).