Thread jump-off from the open source forum

[pjpjpjpj]

So I originally posted this in the open source forum in the thread about "dream client", but realized it is more of a conceptual discussion and a threadjack that should not be there, so I moved it here....
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So I'm curious how you guys who want everything "all in one" envision the interface. Would it be a large grid of posters/banners/art that would show everything available in netflix/hulu/streaming, and mixed into that would be everything you've got recorded on your Sage system (whether that be recordings from TV or imported videos)? Would you also lump in currently-showing live on TV (meaning, everything shown on the screen would be something you could watch "now")? Or would it always, at all times, be a search function (meaning you would have to type or speak what you wanted, rather than looking at a list of what was available)? Or a choice of both? If you wanted the TV guide incorporated, how would you like to see that (it subject to being midway through a show) denoted when mixed with the "archived, on-demand" stuff where you could see the whole episode?

Don't read this as being "confrontational", I'm really curious about what you guys are imagining. Our household doesn't work that way but perhaps it's because I'm not imagining what you are (and if you explain it, maybe I'll think "hey, yeah, that WOULD be cool.")

In our house, we know what we have recorded vs. what we need to get from a streaming source.... but it's really just my wife and I, as our kids are still too young to run the remotes. We have a ton of stuff for them but we know where it is (if they ask for a show, we know whether it's something we have recorded/saved or whether we need to jump through PlayOn to get it streamed from a hulu/netflix/other location). Perhaps there will come a day when we won't know what we have because there's too much to keep track of... but right now, there is never a case where I think "I want to watch {X}" but don't know where to find it, and thus having the "all available media in one place" option would be helpful. Maybe I just don't watch enough TV? Anyway, I'm just curious what the situation is, that creates this need to have "all media available" listed in one place (whether that be a wall/list or a search input).

[samgreco]

If I had my way, my perfect (or as perfect as one could get) box would be a streaming box like the FireTV, Google Nexus, etc. with a full-on Sage client app.

Seems simple Icons for Netflix, Amazon, Google Play and Sage. Sage would open to what would be essentially the full client like on a PC.

Is it even possible? Don't know. But that's would I would like.

[reggie14]

To me, there's two things that make video streaming from within Sage appealing.

One box. I like the idea of not having to have multiple boxes connected to my TVs. I want Sage, Netflix and HBO Go accessible from every TV. That frequently means I have at least a Roku and an HD300 attached to each TV. Getting down to one box would be great in places where I don't have much room. At my main TV, getting down to one box isn't realistic. I have lots of stuff connected to my AVR. So much, in fact, I'm out of HDMI ports. So anything I can do to limit the number of boxes I need is good.

One UI. Ideally, the video content would be integrated with the Sage interface, so searching for a show would pull up records, imported videos and Netflix results. Maybe also putting your favorites and recently watched shows into a Sage interface would be nice too. A big reason I moved to Gemstone in Sage was to integrate my recordings with imported videos.

I'd probably keep live TV and future airings completely separate from recordings and Netflix. Why? Because I hate starting a show in the middle of an episode unless I'm just looking for background noise. And personally, I'd also keep the local media lists separate from streaming lists (like 'my list', recently watched, etc.). But, I could certainly imagine interest in combining the recordings/imported list with the Netflix 'my list' (which I think they previously called your viewing queue).

Searching is terrible with a remote, so voice search would be nice.

But, truth be told, I think this is wildly unrealistic. I don't expect one UI. And practically speaking, even if it were possible, I worry it would end up as a hack job that wouldn't work that well. I bought a lifetime subscription to PlayOn, but I don't intend to ever use it again. I did for a while, but was much, much happier after I just bought another Roku.

That being said, I still think getting Sage clients running on (relatively) common streamers is important if we want to have any chance of expanding the user base and even if we just want to have a steady supply of clients for ourselves.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

So I'm curious how you guys who want everything "all in one" envision the interface. Would it be a large grid of posters/banners/art that would show everything available in netflix/hulu/streaming, and mixed into that would be everything you've got recorded on your Sage system (whether that be recordings from TV or imported videos)? Would you also lump in currently-showing live on TV (meaning, everything shown on the screen would be something you could watch "now")? Or would it always, at all times, be a search function (meaning you would have to type or speak what you wanted, rather than looking at a list of what was available)? Or a choice of both? If you wanted the TV guide incorporated, how would you like to see that (it subject to being midway through a show) denoted when mixed with the "archived, on-demand" stuff where you could see the whole episode?

FWIW, you can kind of do this in Kodi....

What I would "dream" to see, is basically just like Sage is now, except your "EPG" expands to include the contents of Netflix, Hulu, etc. You could search/browse your "guide" and just watch something one off, or if it's a show, or movie, you want to keep watching, you could just add it to your library. Then it would show up as another TV show or "Recording" like anything else. You want to watch the latest episode of Big Bang Theory? Click it and it plays the recording, scroll down a bit and you see House of Cards, click it and it plays the stream from Netflix.

As I said above you can actually do this in Kodi, there's a plugin for Hulu for example, that you can browse Hulu, and you can have it add your Hulu favorites to your Kodi library, where they show up just like your local/ripped content, but when you play them, they get streamed from Hulu. Problem there is the plugins are sort of buggy and tend to break since they're not sanctioned.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by stanger89

What I would "dream" to see, is basically just like Sage is now, except your "EPG" expands to include the contents of Netflix, Hulu, etc. You could search/browse your "guide" and just watch something one off, or if it's a show, or movie, you want to keep watching, you could just add it to your library. Then it would show up as another TV show or "Recording" like anything else. You want to watch the latest episode of Big Bang Theory? Click it and it plays the recording, scroll down a bit and you see House of Cards, click it and it plays the stream from Netflix.

I'm still a little unsure how you envision this looking. Would it look like an EPG except there would be lines for channels and lines for shows, and the show lines would just be one single "block", then when you chose it, it would break out into available episodes? Because the EPG (at least if you are including TV in it) would necessarily require a Time-of-day grid structure.

[MattHelm]

For the streaming shows, maybe my suggestion a LONG time ago would work better.

Use the "Browse by category":

Default all shows for category are show, even if there is a repeat. As currently done. Stream-able shows would be included in all versions.

Have a way to toggle 'hide by unique show' (would only show each show/movie once, "reruns" would be hidden. example Stargate SG-1 S01E01 would only list once, even thought it's shown 5 times that week).

Have a way to toggle 'hide by unique series' (you would see entire series as one entry. Example, There would be a single entry for ALL Stargate SG-1 shows).

This way, you could still find an individual show at a certain time (no toggles), a show in a series (hide by unique shows), a series to add as a favorite (hide by unique series), with much less scrolling.

Then maybe add the "favorite" streaming series at the "bottom" of the programming list, as they are always "watchable"?

Personally, I'd still rather it make a local copy, instead of streaming it. Also, you will need better controls for viewing streams, as some shows on some sites are not in "your" language. Some I'd want, some I wouldn't.

[Fuzzy]

I'd like to be able to view everything together, regardless of source. The issue of this is 'what' to show. Integrating something like netflix and/or hulu into a combined display is going to bring in so much content that it will be un-navigable. As it is now, I get frustrated 'looking' for something on either without depending on the search box.

A compromise would be that shows that are set as favorites would include all available seasons/episodes, whether that is recorded, future airings, streaming availability, etc. What I envision would be a bit of fanart, with a stack of overlayed logo icons denoting where it's available from. And of course, an actual search would hit all sources, and composite the results together.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

I'm still a little unsure how you envision this looking. Would it look like an EPG except there would be lines for channels and lines for shows, and the show lines would just be one single "block", then when you chose it, it would break out into available episodes? Because the EPG (at least if you are including TV in it) would necessarily require a Time-of-day grid structure.

Yeah, I didn't really mean the program guide as such, but rather that it would all be part of the available data, which you could search just like you could search the EPG for airings.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I'd like to be able to view everything together, regardless of source. The issue of this is 'what' to show. Integrating something like netflix and/or hulu into a combined display is going to bring in so much content that it will be un-navigable. As it is now, I get frustrated 'looking' for something on either without depending on the search box.

A compromise would be that shows that are set as favorites would include all available seasons/episodes, whether that is recorded, future airings, streaming availability, etc. What I envision would be a bit of fanart, with a stack of overlayed logo icons denoting where it's available from. And of course, an actual search would hit all sources, and composite the results together.

Agree with these thoughts and I kinda like your idea (or at least I think it would be the best possible way to display what is being described).

I still don't know that we'd use it in our house though... we watch shows and delete them, so there would be no point in having "back episodes" (say, the entire catalog of a show from netflix) displayed. Almost all of our favorites are set to "first run only" and we've seen every episode previous, so there's really no benefit to us. We keep episodes of our kids' favorite shows, but they are not old enough yet to start asking whether there are other older episodes they could watch; they "get what they get" (and honestly are perfectly happy only watching their two or three fave episodes over and over... and over....).

But, again, I understand that we don't function like most here do in terms of media consumption.

[valnar]

I work in IT. Maybe I'm an old-timer, but at my job I hate sharing files via OneDrive, Sharepoint and the like. Why? Because it's the flavor of the day and subject to change. The abstraction also makes things break easier. Nothing beats good old-fashioned organization by directory (or folders for you youngins).

That being said, I agree that a single interface to search all local and online content (even if it would be possible, which I doubt) would be unwieldy. For one, if I have a copy of a movie, it will almost always be a better copy than what's available via streaming. Such intelligence would have to take that into account.

When the Sage interface was created, most of those options like Netflix weren't around. The landscape has changed tremendously. Things like Playon were a stop-gap. It's possible the Sage gods knew that, and with online streaming becoming more popular as well as encryption standards from cable providers, they got out at the right time. I don't blame them.

I agree that a single search function might be pointless. How would we possible develop a system to use the API's for Hulu, Netflix, NFL, etc? Time is better spent on keeping the core Sage engine up to date and intact.

Which leads me to what *I* perceive is the core value of Sage.

• PVR
• Plugins (comskip)
• EPG
• Scheduling
• Watching/viewing/navigation. Fluid FF/RW
• Tuner agnostic

The experience of the HD300 coupled with the Sage backend (tuners, EPG, etc) still makes for the best viewing experience of recorded content, even in 2015. The Sage Client isn't too bad, and Placeshifter was good in its day. But many things have come up in 5 years. Plex, AppleTV, Chromecast, Roku; and they have big companies behind them. Lets face it, the only reason any of us stayed on Sage was because of that list. Everything else can be done with other products now- natively and officially.

Assuming we get 2-3 good solid developers to work on Sage, I'd prefer they concentrate on the core engine, adding new tuners, figure out the DRM issue and staying up-to-date on Java, Windows, etc. If we're lucky, they would develop a HD300 replacement as we're all screaming for.

Assuming we get 5-10 developers, then maybe we can add Android, iOS and other clients (ala Plex) and add other features which creep into XBMC territory. Somehow though, I don't see that as likely.

[7up]

Originally Posted by valnar

Which leads me to what *I* perceive is the core value of Sage.

• PVR
• Plugins (comskip)
• EPG
• Scheduling
• Watching/viewing/navigation. Fluid FF/RW
• Tuner agnostic

I think this list is dead on. Lots of good ideas posted. While it sounds great to be able to access everything from within Sage, I don't know if its realistic. A good compromise might be to add a online streaming search into Sage, using one of the existing search engines. That way you could pop out of the Sage app, launch Netflix, HBOGO, Amazon, etc or since we're fantasizing, the Sage app would launch the desired app and take you directly to the content desired.

[stanger89]

First off, I think you guys are taking this a bit too seriously, I don't think anyone actually thinks this will happen. Each provider wants to maintain as much control as possible. This is all really an academic exercise.

Originally Posted by valnar

I agree that a single search function might be pointless. How would we possible develop a system to use the API's for Hulu, Netflix, NFL, etc? Time is better spent on keeping the core Sage engine up to date and intact.

Again, I don't think there's any even notion that this is really possible or going to happen. As I saw posted some where here "if the mighty XBMC couldn't do it, no one else will be able to."

That said, forget about the practicality of implementing it, I don't see why it would be pointless. Roku has a "universal" search:


That's the sort of thing that I think people would like to see. You could add Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, Vudu, etc as video sources, so when you search for something (Skyfall) you'd be given a list of places to get it from, including your local media. And like you can add things to your "list" on Netflix, you could add movies or shows to your "local" Sage library, or maybe just things from your Netflix list or Hulu Favorites, would automatically show up with your local media. This way you would have control over what you see, but those things that you have added would be seamlessly available in your list of shows/movies.

I don't think anyone who's thought seriously about it thinks having everything on online streaming services show up inside Sage would be a good idea, but having the stuff you want listed side by side (and there's a plugin for XBMC/Kodi that does this with Hulu) would be very nice.

But yeah, it's never going to happen, unless it's the 'hack-ish' way that Kodi plugin works (when it does work).

Assuming we get 2-3 good solid developers to work on Sage, I'd prefer they concentrate on the core engine, adding new tuners, figure out the DRM issue and staying up-to-date on Java, Windows, etc. If we're lucky, they would develop a HD300 replacement as we're all screaming for.

DRM is not going to happen, it's directly at odds with Open Source but beyond that it's way too expensive. Same is really true of an HD300 replacement, only hope for that is to get Sage running on someone else's hardware.

[7up]

Originally Posted by stanger89

That said, forget about the practicality of implementing it, I don't see why it would be pointless. Roku has a "universal" search:


That's the sort of thing that I think people would like to see. You could add Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, Vudu, etc as video sources, so when you search for something (Skyfall) you'd be given a list of places to get it from, including your local media.

I agree integrating online services directly SageTV isn't realistic but hopefully something similar to the Roku universal search could be added using something like www.canistream.it or maybe there is another search engine that might be able to assist? Even if you can't access the show or content directly from Sage recordings/local content, for a SageTV client running on Android, at least you would be able to exit app know which app to launch.

[Fuzzy]

You can, not very difficultly, create a search that parses through PlayOn's UPnP folder structure to search for results, be it for tv shows, movies, etc. Then combine those results and create a screen just like above, adding in locally recorded/imported content. This isn't difficult, and would allow each system to view only those sources where a channel is set up in PlayOn, so you only see what you have available to you.

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by valnar

Which leads me to what *I* perceive is the core value of Sage.

• PVR
• Plugins (comskip)
• EPG
• Scheduling
• Watching/viewing/navigation. Fluid FF/RW
• Tuner agnostic

I hope you are wrong and Open SageTV will do more than this. That is core PVR functionality and the project can't survive doing just what other active projects already do (most of them pretty damn well).

Martin

[loomdog32]

Originally Posted by emveepee

I hope you are wrong and Open SageTV will do more than this. That is core PVR functionality and the project can't survive doing just what other active projects already do (most of them pretty damn well).

Martin

In my household, I can actually make this list even smaller.

Ability to watch live and recorded Live TV w/ EPG Data from multiple Capture devices with different sources
Ability to record live TV for playback later on any device

Add that with the ability integrate existing media playback from the sane interface (Physical Media (DVD/HDDVD/BD) / AVI MKV WMV MP3 MP4 / Netflix Plex Amazon Prime).

--Sage for the most part did this. IMO the only thing it was missing from this equation was the ability to playback online media sources reliably.

Having the ability to "search" for media (regardless of source) makes this even better.. aka Roku approach.

[panteragstk]

Funny, I was thinking of this before I saw this post.

My "dream" client would be a bit different.

Plex style app for sage so it can be platform agnostic.

Roku like streaming options (universal search would be nice)

Ability to easily customize the interface without using studio.

Ability to customize media views similar to SMM, Gemstone, and Phoneix.

Ability to add streaming shows as favorites so they show in the recorded TV interface. "Watched" setting would work on these just like for recordings.

Ability to add streaming movies a la play-on (you can add play-on movies to Gemstone movie views, or you used to be able to). This would be without the need for play-on.

FF/RW would work similar to the native Netflix app (I think phoneix has this, but I can't use phoneix as it isn't compatible with some of my plugins.)

The PC client would have the LAV filters and madVR built in so every file under the sun could play perfectly. You would have the ability to specify filters if you had to. This could be based on codecs and the like (sorta like now, but more specific)

The client would have native resolution and refresh rate switching.

The client would have blu-ray menu support.

The client would have Home Automation support (multi platform, homeseer, control4, eventghost, girder, etc).

The client would also have access to music streaming services as well as have the ability to control playback hardware (sonos, squeezebox, airplay, etc).

I've been able to accomplish most of this (with the exception of adding streaming shows as favorites outside of their native app) with custom menus, pc software running along with sage, and streaming devices. It is a mostly seamless process, but with so many pieces that have to work correctly together it can be difficult for anyone that isn't me to use. This has also taken a lot of work to get right and if I had to start over I wouldn't have the time.

SageTV could (maybe) be made to do quite a lot of what I've laid out, but it would take people with more talent than me to make it happen.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

Funny, I was thinking of this before I saw this post.

My "dream" client would be a bit different.

Plex style app for sage so it can be platform agnostic.

Roku like streaming options (universal search would be nice)

Ability to easily customize the interface without using studio.
.

I believe most of this list is possible. Especially with the windows 10 universal apps. and if your okay with a slim win10 client. I have my goals it just depends on OS direction and time on my part.

[RazorUK]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

I believe most of this list is possible. Especially with the windows 10 universal apps. and if your okay with a slim win10 client. I have my goals it just depends on OS direction and time on my part.

Universal app = sage tv on Xbox one!

[Fuzzy]

We'll have to get in there and see just how portable miniclient is, but it is entirely possible that it could be ported to many different platforms. This would provide you with your singular interface across any platform.