Sage a ghost in the machine?

[toony]

I'm amazed that after using sage for as long as I have I need to ask this question but...

How does the HD300 work? What I mean is that it isn't dependent on the client for codecs correct? The HD300 gets requests the stream and the server sends it, the HD300 does all the work on it's end to play the file correct?

The reason I'm asking is lately ive been noticing large MKV & AVI MPEG4 files have created playback exception errors on the HD300, yet they have played fine in media player and on Sage server. So I tried updating codecs, playing with Sage settings but the errors keep happening. So the only work around was to convert them with Handbrake.

I came to my the conclusion that the HD300 must need some sort of update as something in the world of codecs is changing, I maybe completely out to lunch here.

Then last night I ran into large MKV file that wouldn't even play on the sage server, gave me some audio error, but would play on Media Player. I converted it and it plays fine in Sage server, Flacc audio to AC3 audio fixed it.

I was starting to think that the only way to work around this was to either bribe Jeff into updating Sage and the extenders or build a mini pc client as I can always update codecs on that. However with this audio issue, which maybe just a one off error, I'm wondering if there is some change in the codec world where more and more of these problem codecs are going to start hampering Sage's usability.

[KryptoNyte]

Jeff probably won't be updating Sage hardware at this point.

I do recall a method to get the HD200 to play DTS audio by having the PC decode the audio - I imagine a similar method might exist for the problem that you mention.

[KryptoNyte]

Something like this I imagine:

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18517

Probably take someone smarter than me to figure out how to apply that to video.

[toony]

Yea I'm not holding my breath for an update.

I'm far from a codec genius. I'm just stumped at what is going on here.

I'm a bit hesitant at building a pc extender if this audio codec error was more than a one off glitch. I don't mind re-encoding and maybe this along with a new extender is the only way.

That thread is beyond me.

[KryptoNyte]

Toony, I know this kind of defeats the purpose, but maybe with Sage where it's at right now it would be a good time to grab another media player that is capable of the playing the file as is.

I'm surprised the HD300 can't play that file - it's played every single file I've ever thrown at it. I would first consider encoding the file to a format that is guaranteed to work with the HD300.

[toony]

That's why I am stumped, I have been at this since 2008 and since the HD300 came out I have never had an issue where it couldnt play a file that wasn't corrupt it's self. This has all started in the last few months. I've been running them through handbrake, which is a solution, bit not an elegant one.

I want to stick with Sage, it's part of the family, so that's why I'm thinking maybe a pc extender is the answer where codecs can be updated.

[KryptoNyte]

Avoiding the question of where the file is coming from and altering that method, I think the key here is to hone down exactly what is wrong with the source file that's making the HD300 hiccup, that would take some time with trial and error, for me anyways.

Maybe someone knows how to get the HD300 to dump a log with the issue back to the server (if that's possible).

[drvnbysound]

Interested to find out if you reach a resolution...

I've got HD200s, and audio issues with MKV files is precisely why I've only ripped about 5 BD movies to date. Ripping + transcoding to another codec, in hopes that it works (sometimes) was too much for me to deal with on a regular basis... especially when the files were so large and took so long to complete.

[KryptoNyte]

Any time one purchases something with DTS audio and rips it, you could create (2) audio tracks - the first track is always the DTS audio converted to AC3 5.1 and the second track is the original DTS stream. This ensures compliance with many devices. Using this method you will always be able to play your files with an HD200, yet leaving the original DTS track (track 2) available for the future.

You are correct that encoding can take some time.

[drvnbysound]

Originally Posted by KryptoNyte

Any time one purchases something with DTS audio and rips it, you could create (2) audio tracks - the first track is always the DTS audio converted to AC3 5.1 and the second track is the original DTS stream. This ensures compliance with many devices. Using this method you will always be able to play your files with an HD200, yet leaving the original DTS track (track 2) available for the future.

You are correct that encoding can take some time.

Can you comment on the best way to go about doing this? Do you know of any guides?

I'd really like to have more BD movies in my digital library, but the process I was using before (ripping, eac3to, and tsMuxer) was convoluted and took a considerable amount of time.

I know when I did it before, I searched for about a week - mulled through various threads and had to figure out parts of the process on my own as well. Somewhere along the line I started making notes for myself, knowing that I wouldn't be doing it often. I'd get one done, add it to my STV library, check to see if it worked; if not, I'd delete the file and try again with different settings, reimport and retest. It was a painful process.

Also, I'm not an audio codec junkie... can you comment on the difference between the DTS converted to AC3 5.1, an the original DTS stream?

[KryptoNyte]

I think the easiest method for essentially backing up your own blurays is to just rip the entire disc to hard drive with DVDFab. Download and install Handbrake, fire up Handbrake and point it to the ripped folder on the hard drive, select the correct track and then set all the Handbrake options, add the job to the Que, repeat with additional jobs, fire up the encode on the entire que before bed.

If this is something that interests you for backing up your purchased media, not to mention seriously downsizing the final media file while losing no noticeable quality, say so and I can point you in the right direction on the Handbrake settings.

[KryptoNyte]

Originally Posted by drvnbysound

can you comment on the difference between the DTS converted to AC3 5.1, an the original DTS stream?

I'm a layperson here, so this is my best explanation. Media files can have multiple sound tracks.

The HD200 is capable of PASSING the DTS audio stream (this is basically the raw audio DATA) directly to your television or receiver, provided that device has a DTS decoder on board (receivers almost always do, TV's not so much).

The HD200 is capable of passing or DECODING the AC3 audio, so it's very AC3 friendly.

The times when this becomes a problem for the HD200 are when you attempt to hook it up to a television alone, with the intention of just using the TV's speakers to play the audio. There won't be any audio if the media file has only the DTS sound track and your TV doesn't have the DTS decoder on board to interpret that data stream.

When you encode a file with Handbrake, the audio tab gives you many options, you can add multiple tracks to your final encoded file, and control the order that they appear in the file. The options that you want, for HD200 compliance, are to make sure that the first audio track is the AC3 track, and if you wish to retain the DTS, you make track 2 DTS. When the HD200 starts playing any file, it grabs audio track 1 first, so it's handy that the AC3 track is right there and it will play it without a problem.

If there is no English AC3 5.1 track in the source media, but it does have the DTS audio track, then it's handy that Handbrake allows you to use the DTS as your source track, but encode that DTS as AC3 5.1 audio for track 1.

[drvnbysound]

Originally Posted by KryptoNyte

I think the easiest method for essentially backing up your own blurays is to just rip the entire disc to hard drive with DVDFab. Download and install Handbrake, fire up Handbrake and point it to the ripped folder on the hard drive, select the correct track and then set all the Handbrake options, add the job to the Que, repeat with additional jobs, fire up the encode on the entire que before bed.

If this is something that interests you for backing up your purchased media, not to mention seriously downsizing the final media file while losing no noticeable quality, say so and I can point you in the right direction on the Handbrake settings.

Yes. Definitely interested in hearing more about the Handbrake settings. I'm not really worried about downsizing/compressing the files... I've got plenty of space available for the BDs I own right now, and I'm already looking to build a NAS (which should be MUCH larger that I foresee myself needing for a number of years).

I've already got Handbrake installed as I was converting some videos to be placed on my wife's iPad

[KryptoNyte]

It would also be good to install a program called "MediaInfo" which gives you an extra selection in your file-right-click context menu.

I just bought the first season of "Defiance" so I'll use that bluray as an example. In the MediaInfo Output below, you'll notice that the final encoded file has Audio#1 and Audio#2. Audio#1 was created in Handbrake, actually from the DTSMA source (Handbrake encoded this to AC3 for me). Audio#2 is the actual DTSMA data stream, for devices that can handle it.
--------------------------------------------------
General
Unique ID : 92880065405191893652158273508567603878 (0x45E00CC78F77E7B9FAB313F32D56DAA6)
Complete name : \\MEDIA2\TV Archive\Defiance\DEFIANCE S01E06 - Brothers in Arms.mkv
Format : Matroska
Format version : Version 2
File size : 2.24 GiB
Duration : 43mn 9s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 7 438 Kbps
Writing application : HandBrake 5312svn
Writing library : libmkv 0.6.5

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 43mn 9s
Bit rate : 5 074 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 3 000 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.102
Stream size : 1.53 GiB (68%)
Writing library : x264 core 130
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / .... <truncated>
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177

Audio #1
ID : 2
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Codec ID : A_AC3
Duration : 43mn 9s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 640 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 198 MiB (9%)
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No

Audio #2
ID : 3
Format : DTS
Format/Info : Digital Theater Systems
Format profile : MA / Core
Codec ID : A_DTS
Duration : 43mn 9s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 1 576 Kbps / 1 510 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 24 bits
Compression mode : Lossless / Lossy
Language : English
Default : No
Forced : No

Text
ID : 4
Format : PGS
Codec ID : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info : The same subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Language : English
Default : No
Forced : No

[drvnbysound]

Originally Posted by KryptoNyte

I'm a layperson here, so this is my best explanation. Media files can have multiple sound tracks.

The HD200 is capable of PASSING the DTS audio stream (this is basically the raw audio DATA) directly to your television or receiver, provided that device has a DTS decoder on board (receivers almost always do, TV's not so much).

The HD200 is capable of passing or DECODING the AC3 audio, so it's very AC3 friendly.

The times when this becomes a problem for the HD200 are when you attempt to hook it up to a television alone, with the intention of just using the TV's speakers to play the audio. There won't be any audio if the media file has only the DTS sound track and your TV doesn't have the DTS decoder on board to interpret that data stream.

When you encode a file with Handbrake, the audio tab gives you many options, you can add multiple tracks to your final encoded file, and control the order that they appear in the file. The options that you want, for HD200 compliance, are to make sure that the first audio track is the AC3 track, and if you wish to retain the DTS, you make track 2 DTS. When the HD200 starts playing any file, it grabs audio track 1 first, so it's handy that the AC3 track is right there and it will play it without a problem.

If there is no English AC3 5.1 track in the source media, but it does have the DTS audio track, then it's handy that Handbrake allows you to use the DTS as your source track, but encode that DTS as AC3 5.1 audio for track 1.

Gotcha, at least I can understand that. Which leads me to another question, which is specific to my setup. I have (3) HD200s. One of them is in our main living area, connected to an AVR which can handle DTS-HD MA, etc. However, the other (2) HD200s are directly connected to a TV. Due to this, I believe I definitely want to utilize both tracks.

If I understand your response correctly, the idea is to place the AC3 track first, so that it's chosen by the HD200 (mainly for the directly connected TVs which may not be able to decode the DTS stream). However, how do I go about selecting the original DTS stream for the AVR (assuming the AC3 track will be automatically selected, since it's first)? I've never tried to do this before, but I'm assuming it's something simple...

[KryptoNyte]

Yeah, you have it exactly right, and your setup is very similar to the way mine was.

After starting to play the video file on your HD200 in the main living area on the AVR, bring up the options menu and check the ... language as I recall. There will be two different selections and you can select the DTS audio (track2) if you desire.

[drvnbysound]

Sounds easy enough.

Last question (I think)... Is ripping the entire disc with DVDFab the best/only way to start this process? I've got an active subscription to AnyDVD HD. For my previous attempts, I was simply copying the largest file from the disc over to my file structure, and converting from there. Thoughts?

[KryptoNyte]

Give me a day or two on this. Instead of actually writing a text based guide, I'll just write some short directions and then provide screenshots of the various Handbrake screens. Handbrake can be a little flakey at times, not saving your settings from one file to the next like it probably should, but you get used to it.

Notice I'm using HandBrake 5312svn (nightly release) because it had some additional features that the official release didn't have yet (I can't remember what they are now, but it may have been DTSMA audio capability).

[KryptoNyte]

Originally Posted by drvnbysound

Sounds easy enough.

Last question (I think)... Is ripping the entire disc with DVDFab the best/only way to start this process? I've got an active subscription to AnyDVD HD, and I was simply copying the largest file from the disc over to my file structure, and converting from there. Thoughts?

AnyDVD is probably the best tool actually. Here are a couple things that might cause problems with the 'grab the largest file' method.

1) On every bluray there is an index file (or files) that explain the bluray disc structure to the bluray player. Many times you'll find that your bluray movie (or DVD even) is broken up into many smaller files, and the index keeps all this straight - sometime it's hard to know which files you need, and if you bring the entire disc, Handbrake will usually help you navigate this confusion.

2) On TV Series blurays, there are always multiple files with the desired content. Handbrake will also help navigate those, most of the time.

[KryptoNyte]

If you're just going to play with this, I can tell you that I usually start Handbrake encodes with the "High Profile" and then tweak out other misc. settings to my liking. There are so many settings on that last tab, and I've spent hours trying to determine which create the best image, but I have yet to be able to tell the difference between tweaked out settings and the High Profile.

I'll also say that I'm not a believer in the "constant quality" setting. I've had it blow a few encodes with strange blocking, and there's almost no way to guess what the target encoded file size might be ...