alternatives to Sage to consider

[7up]

Originally Posted by SHS

I'm not impressed with it all because it not true PVR Software in need backend add-on to make it work.

I'm totally fine if you're not impressed, impressed or ambivalent. I didn't write the program but your justification for not being impressed is somewhat perplexing. Perhaps I missed the memo but could you please define a "true PVR?" Yes the server (WMC) and client (XBMC) both needs a program/plug-in, but if it works and is stable...

[SHS]

Define to a true PVR it has everything Integrated with no External add-on software package as in one software package and must supporting Intelligent Recording, Music Audio, DVD, Picture, Video, Integrated Guide Search Capabilities and an Easy Device and Channel Guide Setup Wizard not counting some other thing like Mouse Support, Multi-Source, Multi-Tuner, Multi-Media Folder, Multi-Hard Drive, Media Sever, Network Encoders, Client Software and so on.
Like SageTV, NextPVR, JRiver Media Center and MediaPortal.
In fact I really dish like the pain rear external configuration.

[sflamm]

Using WMC (or any other backend choice) is definitely a potential problem - as it isn't a single solution with common support. An end to end solution not from a single vendor is also likely to have performance issues (ie tuning delays, bugs, etc).

In particular to WMC it is no longer really supported and it only runs on desktop platforms. I used to use it extensively before I moved to SageTV and that was when Microsoft was investing in it... (updates even then were always few and far between - far worse now).

Of course I'm willing to check it out - but from the sounds of the it the end to end solution with XBMC is very young and it does not have the feature set of SageTV. It would be great if someone who has tried it can give us a run down of what to expect in comparison to our current SageTV solution so we can get a feel for where it really is versus our needs.

It is an irony that 2 years later SageTV is still the best single vendor complete solution.

[LehighBri]

Originally Posted by sflamm

Using WMC (or any other backend choice) is definitely a potential problem - as it isn't a single solution with common support. An end to end solution not from a single vendor is also likely to have performance issues (ie tuning delays, bugs, etc).

In particular to WMC it is no longer really supported and it only runs on desktop platforms. I used to use it extensively before I moved to SageTV and that was when Microsoft was investing in it... (updates even then were always few and far between - far worse now).

Of course I'm willing to check it out - but from the sounds of the it the end to end solution with XBMC is very young and it does not have the feature set of SageTV. It would be great if someone who has tried it can give us a run down of what to expect in comparison to our current SageTV solution so we can get a feel for where it really is versus our needs.

It is an irony that 2 years later SageTV is still the best single vendor complete solution.

Agree completely. I'm still all in on XBMC as my front-end, it's more a matter of what's the best/right backend. I'm about to swap out my Ceton for an HDHomeRun Prime which will open up some additional options for me. I'm still focused on a windows backend, so I'm considering NextPVR, Argus TV, and Mediaportal (to replace my SageTV backend) and all of these have XBMC PVR addons. So it's just a matter of trying each of these out and seeing what is best.

I'm open to opinions though for anyone that may have tried all 3 platforms. Any "clear" winners?

[sflamm]

I just ditched my Ceton in favor of an additional Prime - the Prime is more flexible and never has any recording bugs/issues like the Ceton.

Can you comment on your experience with WMC/XBMC?

Also interested in what you are using for clients... I would need to replace my HD300s and upgrade my software clients....

[LehighBri]

Originally Posted by sflamm

I just ditched my Ceton in favor of an additional Prime - the Prime is more flexible and never has any recording bugs/issues like the Ceton.

Can you comment on your experience with WMC/XBMC?

The biggest problem with my Ceton in either SageTV or WMC is stability/consistency. It generally works OK, but sometimes gets halts or doesn't record in SageTV (or I get "No TV signal" every once in a while with WMC)... both very frustrating. I'm using the latest drivers/firmware, but no go, so now I'm jumping back to the HDHR world. As for the WMC PVR addon for XBMC, I love it. Live TV plays back very fast and easily, playing back recordings works great, and generally is nice.

Originally Posted by sflamm

Also interested in what you are using for clients... I would need to replace my HD300s and upgrade my software clients....

I replaced my 3 HD300s with raspberry pis. I love the pis and they works just great (I used OpenELEC).

[emveepee]

NextPVR 3.1.1 was released a few days ago and I finally got time to make a demo of the new web client running on the Raspberry Pi in XBMC http://youtu.be/2sFwLvdao_o Tuning to Total Recall is slow because it's an HDPVR not because of the RPi. Everything but queued music is working pretty well and I can only imagine it getting better. I'd liked to see someone create a SageTV look&feel skin for NextPVR.

Martin

[sflamm]

with raspberry pis

how is the performance? do they lag speed-wise compared to the HD300s?
Is the XBMC UI customized - is it as nice as the UI I see posted for XMBC using the desktop software client?

[sflamm]

From the Raspbmc site:

It will not stream content from the internet (like Hulu), and you may experience stuttering with 1080p videos. This depends a bit on what kind of audio you have on your videos, as well as where they're stored—if you stream them over the network, they'll be more likely to stutter than if you're playing them directly from a USB hard drive. These things may improve as the software improves, but right now they're not quite there enough for us to guarantee flawless 1080p playback

Is this still true? Sounds like a show stopper...

[sflamm]

The Raspberry Pi's menus will definitely feel a bit slower as well, and it won't load high-res fanart as well as more powerful builds—so if you're looking to have a particularly tricked-out, gorgeous XBMC skin, you might be out of luck here. However, as a secondary media center for a smaller TV, or as a media center for simple 720p playback, it's a force to be reckoned with.

This doesnt sound promising. Who has a secondary small TV any more?

The standard is a reasonably nice skin with fanart and 1080i or 1080p...

[LehighBri]

Originally Posted by sflamm

how is the performance? do they lag speed-wise compared to the HD300s?
Is the XBMC UI customized - is it as nice as the UI I see posted for XMBC using the desktop software client?

The raspberry pi may be equal to or lag just a little compared to HD300 when navigating the UI, but the devs are making tons of speed improvements lately so it's only going to get better. Video playback on the rpi has been fantastic and smooth.

And yes the XBMC UI is fantastic. Default skin is very nice and they have tons of very polished skins to use instead.

[7up]

If someone can compile an android plug-in for XBMC from existing source code, an Ouya would seem like it would make an ideal client.

[sflamm]

From what I can tell, the XBMC / WMC integration is only a month old...
I'm going to guess it will take a little while to sort out the bugs/issues.
Any thoughts on the current version?

Also, does XMBC understand EDL files for commercial skipping?

[sflamm]

Since SageTV is rock solid, wouldnt it make sense to have an XBMC plugin that uses SageTV for the live/recorded TV?

Has anyone developed such a plugin?

[LehighBri]

Originally Posted by sflamm

Since SageTV is rock solid, wouldnt it make sense to have an XBMC plugin that uses SageTV for the live/recorded TV?

Has anyone developed such a plugin?

Yes, I helped develop the SageTV addon for XBMC that you can get from the official XBMC addon repo. The gap thats missing is to develop a PVR add-on that uses XBMC's native PVR functionality. We need someone with C++ experience I think but that would be huge!

[7up]

Originally Posted by sflamm

Since SageTV is rock solid, wouldnt it make sense to have an XBMC plugin that uses SageTV for the live/recorded TV?

Has anyone developed such a plugin?

Yes, an XBMC plug-in to use SageTV as the server would be great or alternatively android version of SageTV client...

[LehighBri]

If anyone that knows C++ wells wants to take a shot at developing the PVR addon, I'd be happy to advise and help out, I just don't know C++.

The info for the python-based addon I developed with kricker for XBMC that allows you to watch recordings plus manage them can be found here: http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=Add-on:SageTV

And code: https://github.com/kricker/plugin.video.SageTV

And the demo source code for a C++ PVR addon is here: https://github.com/opdenkamp/xbmc-pv...ddons/pvr.demo

We really just need to expand using that demo source code as a start and then work to get it working by using the JSON API within Sage (which can easily retrieve recording info, EPG info, etc). Just need someone to put it together and I can help navigate the calls to Sage.

Any takers?

[Evil_Attorney]

Originally Posted by sflamm

Since SageTV is rock solid, wouldnt it make sense to have an XBMC plugin that uses SageTV for the live/recorded TV?

Has anyone developed such a plugin?

There is an XBMC Sage plugin. It will literally only allow you to play recorded video files. There was talk of making a real plugin that integrated with XBMC's PVR portion, but no one with the appropriate skill was willing to take that on. Makes me wish I knew how to program.

[Evil_Attorney]

Originally Posted by LehighBri

If anyone that knows C++ wells wants to take a shot at developing the PVR addon, I'd be happy to advise and help out, I just don't know C++.

The info for the python-based addon I developed with kricker for XBMC that allows you to watch recordings plus manage them can be found here: http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=Add-on:SageTV

And code: https://github.com/kricker/plugin.video.SageTV

And the demo source code for a C++ PVR addon is here: https://github.com/opdenkamp/xbmc-pv...ddons/pvr.demo

We really just need to expand using that demo source code as a start and then work to get it working by using the JSON API within Sage (which can easily retrieve recording info, EPG info, etc). Just need someone to put it together and I can help navigate the calls to Sage.

Any takers?

This may sound crazy, but what if we pooled money some money towards this project? We could setup a donation/bounty type of thing. Might motivate someone to take this project on. I'll kick in some money to make this happen.

[sflamm]

I just took a quick glance at the C++ code in the demo.

My observations:

1. The C++ code is very straight forward - nothing special
2. The knowledge necessary to build the plugin is not only in the demo code... there are number of structures that appear to be coming from "libXBMC_pvr.h" such as "pvr_channel"
3. There would also need to be a mapping done... for instance the struct PVRDemoEpgEntry has a int field iGenreType which I assume would need to be translated between Sage and XBMC to display correctly

I'd say what you need is really someone familiar with SageTV working with someone familiar with XBMC. The C++ code is *not* a challenge (you could pick that up in a couple days - as everything I see is basic C++ with use of the C++ std lib (eg. vector). There is no use of inheritence or anything - a simple class PVRData with virtual methods which as far as I can see do not even need to be virtual as the PVRData class is standalone (does not derive from anything).

As an example the PVRData class has a virtual method:

bool PVRDemoData::GetChannel(const PVR_CHANNEL &channel, PVRDemoChannel &myChannel)
{
  for (unsigned int iChannelPtr = 0; iChannelPtr < m_channels.size(); iChannelPtr++)
  {
    PVRDemoChannel &thisChannel = m_channels.at(iChannelPtr);
    if (thisChannel.iUniqueId == (int) channel.iUniqueId)
    {
      myChannel.iUniqueId         = thisChannel.iUniqueId;
      myChannel.bRadio            = thisChannel.bRadio;
      myChannel.iChannelNumber    = thisChannel.iChannelNumber;
      myChannel.iEncryptionSystem = thisChannel.iEncryptionSystem;
      myChannel.strChannelName    = thisChannel.strChannelName;
      myChannel.strIconPath       = thisChannel.strIconPath;
      myChannel.strStreamURL      = thisChannel.strStreamURL;

      return true;
    }
  }

This is basically all C code in a C++ object. And as you can see above, the search for the channel is quite dumb - using a linear search instead of a simple binary tree (very slow).