Optimize SageTV for analog tuners

[gilded07]

Been meaning to ask this for a long time and finally getting around to it.

I recently replaced an HD200 with a SageTV client I built with an Intel G620 CPU with IGP. No studdering or lagging but my somewhat finely tuned eyesight thinks it noticed a slight, and I mean very slight, degradation in the PQ when making the change. I use a PVR150 and 500 for SD tuning.

Just wondering if there are 'levers' in SageTV's detailed set up that I can tweak to improve the PQ with analog tuners and SD picture. Right now the client software for codecs, renderers, etc. is set to all defaults.

Thx

[wayner]

That change can even be due to the setup of your input, if you are using a different input on your TV or it can be just a softer (or harder) picture coming out of the HD-200 vs the PC.

[BobbyDing]

If it's a client pc then you should also have the video drivers for additional fine tuning, or to better match the extender output. My client (and most I would guess) has fine tuning for color/saturation/sharpness/brightness/contrast/etc... Perhaps a tweak in this area is what it requires.

[gilded07]

Originally Posted by wayner

That change can even be due to the setup of your input, if you are using a different input on your TV or it can be just a softer (or harder) picture coming out of the HD-200 vs the PC.

TV input is the same. I simply unplugged the HDMI cable and ethernet cable from the HD200 and plugged them directly into the sagetv client machine.

[gilded07]

Originally Posted by BobbyDing

If it's a client pc then you should also have the video drivers for additional fine tuning, or to better match the extender output. My client (and most I would guess) has fine tuning for color/saturation/sharpness/brightness/contrast/etc... Perhaps a tweak in this area is what it requires.

It is a full SageTV client machine. Right now, the video drivers for the tuners are on the server - are you suggesting I need to install the analog tuner drivers on the client too?

That's easy to do - just want to make sure I understand your suggestion.

I thought there might be an adjustment within SageTV client software or in the Intel HD Graphics utility software. I just don't know enough to know where to start tweaking.

[RedR]

Originally Posted by BobbyDing

If it's a client pc then you should also have the video drivers for additional fine tuning, or to better match the extender output. My client (and most I would guess) has fine tuning for color/saturation/sharpness/brightness/contrast/etc... Perhaps a tweak in this area is what it requires.

He's talking about a control panel like what Nvidia or ATI provide to adjust your output from the video card.

[gilded07]

Originally Posted by RedR

He's talking about a control panel like what Nvidia or ATI provide to adjust your output from the video card.

Oh, I see. That's the Intel HD Graphics Utility software. It does have settings to adjust, I just have no idea where to begin. Thought someone on here might be able to share what video settings they had to adjust on their client in order to improve analog or SD picture quality...

[RedR]

Originally Posted by gilded07

Thought someone on here might be able to share what video settings they had to adjust on their client in order to improve analog or SD picture quality...

Not really, it can vary from machine to machine. Best to tweak each as needed. Frankly I'd start top down. If the element is a problem you are seeing, tweak it. If you screw things up, revert to default, or your saved profile. Once you get it "better" save your profile and move to the next.

Hate to say it, most if not all our forum guru's have long since moved on to HD. I do know however the thread topic as well many if these "tweaking issues" have been addressed over the years on this forum. Sadly, you'll have to dig

I too am still on SD moving ever so slowly toward HD.

[TwistedMelon]

This shouldn't have anything to do with SD/HD if the output from the video card is the culprit. In that light, it might need a report with a different subject to get more attention.

The color output from the HD200 and HD300 is most definitely different than the default output from a PC's video card. In the ATI control panels for instance you can change output to a subset of the RGB color space, plus you can set different modes like YUV 4:2:2 or YUV 4:4:4, etc.. You can also adjust output gamma and turn/off any number of PQ enhancements (turn them all off if you have any such adjustments).

[gilded07]

haven't had a chance to test any changes yet but to the picture quality issues doesn't have anything with color. Its the sharpness that takes a hit when I switch from HD200 to built in Intel HD graphics. HD via the HDHR looks fine as usual but the SD has a slightly less sharp look. Its especially noticeable in text on the screen...words along the bottom of the screen on ESPN and the score in the box at the top of the screen are harder to read from a distance than text on the HD200.

[TwistedMelon]

I think you might want to do some troubleshooting first using test patterns. Start by confirming/comparing HD patterns and then switch over to some lower resolution patterns to check the scaling.

You may be seeing differences in the hardware scaling and filtering between the two. While there may be some settings to alter this on the Intel system, you may also be stuck. I would however, not expect there to be the kinds of noticeable issue you've described.

[gilded07]

here's two screen shots. you can see the text is block and difficult to read. I've been looking through the options on the intel HD graphics utility and see a lot of color adjustments but haven't found anything (yet) to make the picture more clear. Still looking

[gilded07]

should I be using the microsoft dvd decoder or sagetv decoder?

the deinterlacing is defaulted to disabled. should I turn on deinterlacing? I see there are six DI options...anyone had improvement in PQ by using DI?

[TwistedMelon]

Use the MS decoder. Skipping deinterlacing won't degrade the picture. You may see combing effect from the alternating fields, but that's not showing up in your screen grabs.

The images you posted do look somewhat mucky, but without a point of reference (your previous setup) it's hard to tell if there's in fact an issue. What we're looking at, without reference, could be interpreted as simply a poor looking original broadcast/channel.

[gilded07]

Originally Posted by TwistedMelon

Use the MS decoder. Skipping deinterlacing won't degrade the picture. You may see combing effect from the alternating fields, but that's not showing up in your screen grabs.

The images you posted do look somewhat mucky, but without a point of reference (your previous setup) it's hard to tell if there's in fact an issue. What we're looking at, without reference, could be interpreted as simply a poor looking original broadcast/channel.

Thank you melon - I can definitely see a difference here in my living room but for the sake of comparison, it would probably be helpful to get screen shots of both the HD200 and the client box looking at the same recorded show or sporting event.

[gilded07]

what's the recommended steps to compare picture quality? Do I just record a show and play back a certain timeline of it each time I want to compare the picture quality after I make a change?

I've been using ESPN because it has the streaming data at the bottom as well as small text on the screen for score, time clock, game clock, player info, etc. but its hard to compare the same screens - I can't seem to accurately pause the playback at the same time each time.

Are there jpegs online that people use to make these picture quality comparisons?

1. Best SD PQ is when I watch TV with the cable plugged directly into the TV itself. Very watchable and easy to read.
   
2. The next best PQ is when I watch via my my HD200 or 300 - slightly degraded PQ but all text is vivid and readable.
   
3. what I'm trying to improve is the SD PQ when I watch via my newly built SageTV client using Win7 64 and an intel G620 w/ 4 GB of RAM.

Me thinks its an intel adjustment that needs to be made, not a SageTV adjustment since the HD200 PQ was fine w/ default SageTV settings.

I've updated the intel drivers w/ no improvement.

I even bought a $25 MSI Nvidia N210 512GB and used updated drivers with no improvement.

I chuckle to myself when I think about all the research I did before building and my focus on watching HD content w/ a SageTV client - the HD viewing is fine (no blue ray); I'm stuck on the SD content!

[gilded07]

Purchased an Nvidia 210 and dl'd the lastest drivers. Tried all the settings. No PQ improvement. Returned the Nvidia 210 card.

Went back to the Intel G620 iGPU and updated the driver. Tried a variety of different settings. No improvement.

Tried SageTV's EVR and VMR9 renderers; tried SageTV MPEG2 decoder and the MS decoder in Win7; tried different settings in SageTV's dscaler / deinterlacer - no PQ improvement.

Used the latest VLC on the client to watch recorded MPEG2 files over the network from the server. Interestingly, same PQ problems. Tried DI settings in VLC. No improvement. This is what really convinced me that the source recording might be the problem and that a more recent tuner might help.

Friend of mine and former MythTV/SageTV/WMC7 user showed me his XBMC/Media Portal set up with an HVR1600, a newer tuner than my PVR150 and 500 and his SD PQ was much clearer.

Have ordered an HVR2250 from amazon to see if it improves the PQ.