Just in case- Alternatives to SageTV

[svemuri]

Originally Posted by david1234

Can another PC client connect to the server? if I have WMC7 on my laptop, can it view content on the main system?

I don't have WMC7 setup yet, but it appears that the answer is yes and no. Once WMC7 can't be a "client" of another, but can be a "peer" if that makes sense. Some content can be shared (recordings), but LiveTV is not available and there are other limitations with DRM etc.

[valnar]

With any luck, Windows 8 will be out before our EPG year is up (assuming you can hold off that long) and maybe Microsoft will go to a client-server model. They'll have to if they want to get serious about WMC or everyone else may pass them up.

It might be funny to say, but maybe we should write Microsoft and say, "Hey. Psssst. These Google guys bought SageTV. You don't want them to pass you up, right? wink wink, nudge nudge"

[sciguy]

Originally Posted by valnar

With any luck, Windows 8 will be out before our EPG year is up (assuming you can hold off that long) and maybe Microsoft will go to a client-server model. They'll have to if they want to get serious about WMC or everyone else may pass them up.

It might be funny to say, but maybe we should write Microsoft and say, "Hey. Psssst. These Google guys bought SageTV. You don't want them to pass you up, right? wink wink, nudge nudge"

Microsoft disbanded the WMC division after Windows 7 release if I'm not mistaken so I'm pretty sure they will stick with the 360 as being the extender blah blah blah...

[SHS]

Originally Posted by valnar

With any luck, Windows 8 will be out before our EPG year is up (assuming you can hold off that long) and maybe Microsoft will go to a client-server model. They'll have to if they want to get serious about WMC or everyone else may pass them up.

It might be funny to say, but maybe we should write Microsoft and say, "Hey. Psssst. These Google guys bought SageTV. You don't want them to pass you up, right? wink wink, nudge nudge"

You know that be Wrong
The current belief is that DVR/Live TV functionality may not be included in any future versions of Windows. Microsoft will be focusing more on online content, But like all things that's just a rumour for now and forget about a client-server model that not going happing they could have all ready done that age's ago with Windows 7 beta.

[valnar]

Well, for that reason alone, people should not be considering WMC on this forum. It's as dead as Sage. Good to know that info.

[SWKerr]

I don't think Microsoft will completely abandon WMC but you can already tell that it is not a focus point on the Xbox360. It is not even easy to find on the Xbox menus.

Microsoft is working on a TV service with DVR functionality that will likely make WMC a sideshow going forward. I would not expect to see any major improvements or innovation there. It will all be on the Xbox360 side with a payed service.

[stanger89]

Which just makes this all more depressing.

Hopefully my replacement will be whatever Jeff+Google are cooking.

[PLUCKYHD]

For what's it worth being a x media center user for 5 years they have been saying it was going to die since xp days so I say those rumors are hogcrap. Wmc isn't going anywhere in version 8 it is likely to be more tied into windows phone and such.

Allot of detail is going to xbox but you Also have the ms embedded platform coming out and that shows allot of promise.

Not saying anyone should switch but get tired of false rumors without validation of it's death being passed around when windows 8 comes along with WMc the same people will say it is dying in windows 9

[kricker]

I'm hoping Google doesn't totally screw this up. I've already played with some alternatives just to be prepared.

I've toyed with nPVR on and off since early in the GBPVR days. I had good experiences with the community and it was a decent PVR. I just don't care for the interface, mainly because I am used to the sexiness of XBMC.

I left Meedio after Yahoo killed it. I waited for MeediOS to mature, but it took to long.

I've used XBMC since it was XBMP on the xbox. I still use it daily. I use it for everything not related to live TV. The PVR portion is under development and has been for a while now. They have been laying the groundwork for maybe a year or more. They want to get everything right. The idea is to lay the groundwork so that anyone can write a add-on to connect to the PVR backend of your choice. I've been experimenting the last couple days with the PVR builds and different server backends. So far it has not been easy and it isn't XBMC that is the issue. It is the server backends. The 2 supported for windows are For the Record and Mediaportal TV server. Both have been a PIA to try to setup and I still have no clue how to get a proper guide running for either. For the Record doesn't even support the analog tuner on my dual tuner card. Scanning for QAM channels and trying to figure out what they are is a nightmare in both apps. The latest beta of Mediaportal TV has a bug where QAM scanning isn't even working properly (it is a known issue).

I just came across some MythTV for windows builds. I am off to go play with it now. There is some integration for MythTV with XBMC, maybe this could be a solution.

[pez]

oops, wrong thread.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

For what's it worth being a x media center user for 5 years they have been saying it was going to die since xp days so I say those rumors are hogcrap. Wmc isn't going anywhere in version 8 it is likely to be more tied into windows phone and such.

At the same time, after all the builds and years, I don't know how people can plausibly think MS will make any significant advancements in the areas we care about (format support, extenders, etc).

They've proven again, and again, that their vision for WMC is far different than that of the enthusiast community.

Allot of detail is going to xbox but you Also have the ms embedded platform coming out and that shows allot of promise.

I really just don't understand the excitement, what's it really supposed to bring? I just don't see it being more than most likely a more limited version of the WMC we already have.

Not saying anyone should switch but get tired of false rumors without validation of it's death being passed around when windows 8 comes along with WMc the same people will say it is dying in windows 9

I don't really see why it would come out, but at the same time I would be quite surprised if they greatly improved tuner support, or DVD, BD playback, media formats or brought out a new extender even close to what Sage did.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by stanger89

At the same time, after all the builds and years, I don't know how people can plausibly think MS will make any significant advancements in the areas we care about (format support, extenders, etc).

You have to remember Microsoft has allot of content deals with studios and content providers. They don't add additional codec support to the extenders strictly because of this. I know this first hand. SageTV never had that issue because a they were small and be the content providers couldn't threaten to pull other deals over it. I believe Google will have the same issue and the content streaming won't be so open either.

Originally Posted by stanger89

They've proven again, and again, that their vision for WMC is far different than that of the enthusiast community.

See above. Their vision is tv and embedded devices. With pay movies and such. Tv works and works really well I used it for 4 plus years 2 of those years with xbox 360;s exclusively tv always worked. Even ati cablecard was always reliable for me.

Originally Posted by stanger89

I really just don't understand the excitement, what's it really supposed to bring? I just don't see it being more than most likely a more limited version of the WMC we already have.

It will allow tv's without settop boxes needed to stream from a main pc (ie xbox extender built in.) this is what mass market wants joe blow doesn't know how to rip a movie let alone care about codec support

Originally Posted by stanger89

I don't really see why it would come out, but at the same time I would be quite surprised if they greatly improved tuner support, or DVD, BD playback, media formats or brought out a new extender even close to what Sage did.

You can get all this with clients in WMC. Bluray playback,3d the whole nine yards. The only thing they lack is a unified guide/shared drm recordings but I am hopeful that will come finally with windows 8.

If you expect google to be able to bend the rules and allow streaming of native dvd's and blurays like sagetv did I think you will be highly disappointed as they will get slapped down by the providers just like MS. sometimes it sucks to be big

[SJL]

Originally Posted by svemuri

The following is probably a good start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...tware_packages

Sarat

That isn't a bad place to start. I think we know several of those won't fit the bill, and we can probably narrow that down to a half-dozen or so.

I think we need to be a little more specific to help some of us make an educated choice... For example, I've seen many older posts state the PVR features of Media Portal "suck" compared to Sage. I may agree with that statement, but I haven't used Media Portal yet. In what way does it fail to compare? Intelligent Recording feature not there? Not used in my household, not an issue for me. For many people here, it could be a critical feature to your spouse and thus you won't be able to get by without it.

Here is my suggestion: We create a table, where the heading of the first column is "Hardware Support" or something similar, and below it we list what Sage supports for hardware - capture cards, extender or thin clients, etc... In the same column after the hardware section, we have headings for the different software sub-feature sets - Video, Music, PVR/TV, etc, and list the individual Sage features there. The subsequent column headings will of course list the products we think may be a potential substitute for some of us, and we'll document as close as we can if the feature is there, and if so a letter code (L , C, or S) to indicate if it's Limited, Comparable, or Superior in relation to the Sage implementation, as that's where we'll all be coming from.

I'll volunteer to pull down the latest version of Media Portal and set it up as client/server to contribute what I can to the matrix, perhaps others here already have experience with some of the options being mentioned and we can create this quickly. We would want to make sure our evaluation is in relation to the latest version of the potential substitute.

Would the forums be a good place to host such a document? It would be nice if we could get this in a web page hosted somewhere where others googling could hit it also, especially if these forums disappear in a year. I wonder if Brent is out there reading this, would a matrix like this be something you would want to post on GeekTonic? I don't want to be volunteering anyone else for work, if someone did host this they would have to update the web page as we added data, unless there is a way for us to get this to work on the forums, it's late and I keep thinking I'm forgetting something....

Thoughts?

[clayfree]

Originally Posted by AzTech

Correct me if I'm wrong...I know that XBMC doesn't _currently_ have a DVR component to it but isn't that coming with the Eden release sometime this year?

Assuming the DVR features implemented are even remotely comparable to what Sage has to offer, I don't see why it isn't almost the ideal solution...particularly if you are dependent on extenders. Among other XBMC extender options, you can get an Apple TV and jailbreak it for less than $100. We get all the geeky customization and flexibility with XBMC that we've grown to love with Sage...with the added bonus that it is a fairly inexpensive solution.

Full DVR support is scheduled for the build after Eden so it's 18 months out. However there is lots of DVR implementation going on right now.

To replace Sage I think the key will be cheap extenders(that's was the draw for me). Currently xbmc is running on AppleTv2 extremely well, I own 2 of the and it's what we use in out living room. There are even some PVR builds for the AppleTV that appear to be working. The one drawback is that Mpeg2 decode appears to limited(it plays any mpeg4 with ease, even 1080p) so I don't understand how I could ever play OTA astc. Now if you were using a hauppauge hd pvr and were recording h.264 then it might work.

To your point I love the customization and the developer community is extremely active. Lots of great skins too. The other thing that drew me to xmbc is a variety of direct plugins for streaming content. I just don't think the DVR portion is there yet. For $100 it is a miracle, there are lots of media boxes in that price range but they don't have the skins, plugins, development and the A4 processor is very snappy.

I'm keeping my eye on the new sigma box(wall wart), it's linux, optimzed for xbmc and will play anything. Hopefully someone will embrace it as an extender box.

[pieroxy]

There is some things I don't understand. (Hopefully, if I understood everything life would be boring).

SageTV went away last week. Now people are wondering if they should jump ship to WMC or to XBMC ... And I don't get it.

WMC is a closed proprietary system that is stable. The only advantage compared to others is that is has hardware extenders, although these extenders are butt-ugly, noisy, ugly remote and big. In other words, a Mini-ITX machine would be much better in every ways, but alas, WMC doesn't have software extenders. Plus, as big companies have proven again and again, they will invariably screw you if they think money has shifted. Plus, DRM, crappy codec support, only one type of tuner support, etc.

And XBMC is not even a PVR yet.

What about MediaPortal? It has had PVR functions for over 5 years, has software extenders, is ubber stable and works really well. Plus it's free and open source, so nobody will ever pull the plug.

Yet, people are considering stuff that isn't there or stuff that will be much worse in all aspects.

Go figure.

[sunray]

Plenty of open source programs have ceased development including PVR software. Ever heard of Freevo? Furthermore the overwhelming majority of people do not have the time, skill. or desire to be programmers. Linux heads and open source advocates can never seem to understand this. The stuff that programmer types find "fun" gets all the attention while stuff that's not "fun" like user interfaces, documentation (especially for non techy users), etc gets short shrift. Open source software also is often released in a "good enough", "mostly works", state with quite a few bugs because spending a lot of time (think 80/20 rule) tracking down bugs isn't "fun". If the Linux heads and open source advocates had their way we wouldn't have GUIs on our computers at all. We'd all be running PERL or Python scripts from a shell.

Finally, most of the Linus heads, etc tend have poor social skills and assume that everyone has the same knowledge level as they do and are condescending, rude and obnoxious to questions from non techy types. RTFM is not a valid reply to every question.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

You have to remember Microsoft has allot of content deals with studios and content providers. They don't add additional codec support to the extenders strictly because of this. I know this first hand. SageTV never had that issue because a they were small and be the content providers couldn't threaten to pull other deals over it. I believe Google will have the same issue and the content streaming won't be so open either.



See above. Their vision is tv and embedded devices. With pay movies and such. Tv works and works really well I used it for 4 plus years 2 of those years with xbox 360;s exclusively tv always worked. Even ati cablecard was always reliable for me.

It will allow tv's without settop boxes needed to stream from a main pc (ie xbox extender built in.) this is what mass market wants joe blow doesn't know how to rip a movie let alone care about codec support

Yup, agreed on all points (we'll see if the integrated extenders really happens this time). And I don't have a problem with it. I just find it interesting that there still seems to be a large group of people thinking Microsoft will make WMC more "community friendly" with community features when they've shown they have no interest in that.

You can get all this with clients in WMC. Bluray playback,3d the whole nine yards. The only thing they lack is a unified guide/shared drm recordings but I am hopeful that will come finally with windows 8.

This is what I'm getting at, "Softsled" has been around (internal to MS) for years, yet they never release it, and why? I don't know, I can't really understand it, beyond they seem to have no interest in it.

If you expect google to be able to bend the rules and allow streaming of native dvd's and blurays like sagetv did I think you will be highly disappointed as they will get slapped down by the providers just like MS. sometimes it sucks to be big

Yup, this is really my biggest "fear" with this whole thing, that Google will "dumb down" Sage for the mass market/STB market. This is probably the biggest reason I'm looking (but not moving, yet) elsewhere.

I do want to mention one thing, re DVD and BD rips, MS does support them, WMC plays DVD rips natively. Given that I really can't see why the extenders don't support it. I can't see how content owners (if they're really the issue) would allow ripped DVDs on the PC but not extenders.

Originally Posted by pieroxy

There is some things I don't understand. (Hopefully, if I understood everything life would be boring).

SageTV went away last week. Now people are wondering if they should jump ship to WMC or to XBMC ... And I don't get it.

Well just pausing right there, I can't see staying with a EOL'd product/system without at least a plan forward to something that offers current support, and continued development.

I mean SageTV is great and I'm a big fan of SageTV, but frankly it doesn't exist any more. What I have now still works, and that's great, but Jeff has now moved on to something (which may or may not resemble SageTV, here's hoping it does and we can move to that, but I sort of doubt it).

Without Jeff and continued development, I expect the community will gradually (if not precipitously) stagnate and die.

[matterofrecord]

I'VE THOUGH OF A REALLY GOOD ALTERNATIVE TO SAGE.

-The only problems is that it doesn't exist yet.

Most manufacturers give some "quickly ditched" freeware along with their tuner ( sorry manufacturers but you know it's true ). There is a large duplication of code and effort.

What would happen if all the tuner manufactures got together and got behind one unified project? If they all got together I recon they could build a pretty damn good PVR.

What does everyone else think?

[Karride]

Sure, great idea. I've had one too; What if everyone got a free Unicorn on their birthday this year?

[valnar]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Yeah, that's pretty annoying. That's why I'm thinking about Moxi + Boxee. The Moxi system would take care of just cable TV, while the Boxee Box would take care of online video and media files on my network.

There is a long thread on AVSForum about Moxi and people over there are saying Moxi is a dead product too. Development has stopped. They are just selling the remainder of their inventory. (Not a bad idea. Sage? hint, hint)