The Official "Working SageTV + Ceton Firmware + SageDCT Version Combinations" thread

[sflamm]

For instructions I'll leave you to check babgvant.com

That's funny - babgnvant said to ask you

or the Device Website

Havent seen any doc on the Ceton website about this... assume this is sitting at the DCT ip: http://DCTip

I dont have my DCT yet (on its way!)...

[mikinho]

You can get to the the website a few ways.

1- Try using the default address of http://192.168.200.1/

2- From the Ceton InfiniTV Diagnostic Tool > Devices tab > Click "Go to InfiniTV device webpage"

3- From "Network" find your InfiniTV and right-click "View device webpage"

You'll need to get the Serial Number from the CableCARD device webpage though so it is easier to get from the Diagnostics Tool as it is presented in a single area.

Hope that helps.

-Michael

[sflamm]

mikinho,

Thanks - very clear.

Quick question:

When setting up the SageDCT/CetonDCT combination on a dedicated separate box from the SageTV Server box, should we assign static IPs to both?

Makes sense to me that the SageDCT needs a static assignment so the SageTV server config will have a fixed location for the network encoder and that the Ceton DCT would need a static address so that the SageDCT would know the static location of the uPnP Ceton server (though it might use localhost?)...

is that how you set it up? suggestions about setting up this distributed configuration successfully?

[mikinho]

Originally Posted by sflamm

mikinho,

Thanks - very clear.

Quick question:

When setting up the SageDCT/CetonDCT combination on a dedicated separate box from the SageTV Server box, should we assign static IPs to both?

Makes sense to me that the SageDCT needs a static assignment so the SageTV server config will have a fixed location for the network encoder and that the Ceton DCT would need a static address so that the SageDCT would know the static location of the uPnP Ceton server (though it might use localhost?)...

is that how you set it up? suggestions about setting up this distributed configuration successfully?

SageDCT finds the Ceton InfiniTV via UPnP so that isn't needed. The InfiniTV will also act as its own DHCP Server when it is not setup for networking bridging so in the default configuration it will almost always have the same IP address.

I do recommend giving your SageTV server and clients a static IP address though. I typically use Static DHCP (aka DHCP Reservations) which assigns a preassigned IP address based on the MAC Address. It is a featured found on all modern routers and simplifies your home network discovery. It also reduces issues due to DNS cache if an IP address changes.

[sflamm]

SageDCT finds the Ceton InfiniTV via UPnP so that isn't needed

Come to think about it - not a great question on my part as uPnP uses an IP multicast broadcast which automatically routed across the subnets.

In this case traffic is on the local IP stack itself since both the subnet of the computer and the virtual NIC of the Ceton are on the same physical box (default routes between the subnets are in the local route table)

the InfiniTV will also act as its own DHCP Server when it is not setup for networking bridging so in the default configuration it will almost always have the same IP address

The question I have here is how does the Ceton decide which subnet it is on?
DHCP only works on a subnet boundary, and if there are more than one DHCP server present this will be a problem as dhcp assignments will be given out in a non deterministic way. Either DHCP needs to be disabled on the Ceton or we need to assure that it is always on its own unique subnet.
Is it possible to disable DHCP on the Ceton?

It is a featured found on all modern routers and simplifies your home network discovery

There is no advantage whatsoever to having 'sticky' MAC DHCP assignments for fixed devices in a home network. In fact, it is much better to use static addressing for fixed devices and have a corresponding A record in your local DNS server. With that said many folks do not use split DNS at home - even still a static address is easier to setup since you do not have to enter the MAC addr binding in the local dhcp server (usually in their wifi router).

I do recommend giving your SageTV server and clients a static IP address though.

Whatever box is acting as a network encoder for SageTV (the location that SageDCT is installed in this case) should also use a static IP - as the network encoder is a fixed entry in the SageTV properties file and is not dynamically discovered using any discovery protocol (unlike the uPnP)

[sflamm]

A follow-on question I have:

It is possible that there is more than one RTP/video source using uPnP on a home network. How does SageDCT decide which one it binds to? Or is it hard-coded at this time to only work/recognize Ceton (hard coded to the Ceton mulitcast group IP)?

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by sflamm

The question I have here is how does the Ceton decide which subnet it is on?
DHCP only works on a subnet boundary, and if there are more than one DHCP server present this will be a problem as dhcp assignments will be given out in a non deterministic way. Either DHCP needs to be disabled on the Ceton or we need to assure that it is always on its own unique subnet.
Is it possible to disable DHCP on the Ceton?

If you happen to be using the subnet that the card uses this could be a problem, but it would require some effort to get into a problem situation because almost every consumer level router uses 192.168.x.x by default and IIRC the Ceton is on 192.200.0.x.

Originally Posted by sflamm

There is no advantage whatsoever to having 'sticky' MAC DHCP assignments for fixed devices in a home network. In fact, it is much better to use static addressing for fixed devices and have a corresponding A record in your local DNS server. With that said many folks do not use split DNS at home - even still a static address is easier to setup since you do not have to enter the MAC addr binding in the local dhcp server (usually in their wifi router).

There is a convenience, portability and local DNS argument that can be made for static DHCP assignments. For e.g. not all routers have explicit DNS management, so name resolution for static IPs will not work in that scenario.

Originally Posted by sflamm

Whatever box is acting as a network encoder for SageTV (the location that SageDCT is installed in this case) should also use a static IP - as the network encoder is a fixed entry in the SageTV properties file and is not dynamically discovered using any discovery protocol (unlike the uPnP)

As long as the IP of the network encoder doesn't change it will work (doesn't really matter how you get there). Also, while I haven't tested it I'd expect that the hostname or FQDN would also be a viable approach.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by sflamm

A follow-on question I have:

It is possible that there is more than one RTP/video source using uPnP on a home network. How does SageDCT decide which one it binds to? Or is it hard-coded at this time to only work/recognize Ceton (hard coded to the Ceton mulitcast group IP)?

Currently only Ceton DCTs will be bound. The mechanism that limits selection is not based on IP address.

SageDCT is greedy though, it will expose every tuner that it binds to. There is not currently a way to limit that.

[mikinho]

Originally Posted by sflamm

The question I have here is how does the Ceton decide which subnet it is on?
DHCP only works on a subnet boundary, and if there are more than one DHCP server present this will be a problem as dhcp assignments will be given out in a non deterministic way. Either DHCP needs to be disabled on the Ceton or we need to assure that it is always on its own unique subnet.
Is it possible to disable DHCP on the Ceton?

You are over complicating things. The DHCP Server on the InfiniTV is not exposed to your network unless you bridge the InfiniTV with a network card. If you decide to do that, which we discussed has little purpose with SageDCT\SageTV, then part of your setup procedure will be to change the InfiniTV to either a Static IP address or DHCP client mode.

Originally Posted by sflamm

There is no advantage whatsoever to having 'sticky' MAC DHCP assignments for fixed devices in a home network. In fact, it is much better to use static addressing for fixed devices and have a corresponding A record in your local DNS server. With that said many folks do not use split DNS at home - even still a static address is easier to setup since you do not have to enter the MAC addr binding in the local dhcp server (usually in their wifi router).

This has been over discussed in more appropriate forums and I disagree with you. Most consumer routers do not expose settings to their internal DNS table to create A records. Those that do will have an option to add Static DHCP reservations as A records to their DNS table. Adding entries to your LMHOST file works but is archaic and while it does work it adds an extra layer of maintenance to a home network that I wouldn't recommend to a typical user.

Setting up a Static DHCP reservation is typically done via a wizard now as well where you don't need to know your MAC address. Using ARP or other protocols you can present users with a list of Host, current IP Address and MAC Address to chose from or a "Copy my MAC Address" feature. It doesn't get much simpler. And I believe it is the simpler solution for most users. You'd be amazed at how many people cut\paste my 10-net IP address I used in my guide even though they are were on 192.168.x.x address pool.

Note: I would never revert back to use a consumer router again.

[mikinho]

Btw, I do use Static IP addresses at home. I have several networks, VLANs, two routers, 4 Enterprise APs, DNS Servers, WINS services, DHCP Servers, CARP Servers, etc. I just don't recommend it over Static DHCP for most users.

Like I said, most consumer routers do not expose DNS management. Quite a few routers will also use a Static DHCP in their DNS table even if they do not expose the setting.

With Static DHCP you have a single string, the MAC Address to enter (and that may not even be needed). When configuring a Static IP address you need to enter IP Address, Subnet Mask, Default Gateway, DNS Servers, make a chose on NetBIOS over TCP\IP, etc. If you screw up a MAC address...not a problem you still get an IP address. If you screw up your static IP settings it either doesn't work or leads to issues that are potential difficult to troubleshoot.

[sflamm]

You are over complicating things. The DHCP Server on the InfiniTV is not expose to your network unless you bridge the InfiniTV with a network card. If you decide to do that, which we discussed has little purpose with SageTV, then part of your setup procedure will be to change the InfiniTV to either a Static IP address or DHCP client mode.

You are relying solely on the fact that the default subnet that InfiniTV (192.200.x.x) chooses is not in fact the subnet used at your location for the host machine of the Ceton card. Although for most consumers this is a good assumption - it is only remains good if they do not go and manually assign a static IP to the Ceton network adapter on the local subnet in use by the host machine. If I accidentally configure that to my network then I am in big trouble - the DHCP server will in fact be in conflict with existing DHCP servers on the subnet and the results will be very bad. This happens in two obvious use cases 1) manually assign a static IP 2) bridge the network directly on to the local subnet (which apparently your network configuration 7MC setup software does automatically without informing the user!)

Even if the network interface Ceton uses is configured to be a dhcp clien or not, if Ceton is in fact running a dhcp server on card that is bound to that interface there will be problem if it shows up on the same subnet. Therefore Ceton needs to provide a toggle to turn off the internal DHCP server (independently of the interface adapter configuration). Since I do not yet have my Ceton card in hand (in the mail) - my question is do you have a toggle to turn off the DHCP server? (as any retail consumer device does)

In any case - it is good I asked so I understand the current behavior of the card. I suggest that Ceton clearly documents this as it is nowhere in the docs (and I read them all).

This has been over discussed in more appropriate forums and I disagree with you. Most consumer routers do not expose settings to their internal DNS table to create A records. Those that do will have an option to add Static DHCP reservations as A records to their DNS table. Adding entries to your LMHOST file works but is archaic and while it does work it adds an extra layer of maintenance to a home network that I wouldn't recommend to a typical user.

It is true that most (if not all) consumer routers do not allow A records to be set manually. They serve only as DNS proxies / forwarders. However, nowadays most are smart enough to learn the hostname/ip from monitoring network traffic and do in fact act as a split domain DNS server for those (providing answers to DNS queries for those hostnames) - otherwise no host name resolution would be present on the subnet unless you ran a separate DNS server or Windows was using its local resolutions protocols (i.e. WINS). The case of the consumer router's DHCP server is similar - it automatically caches and answer DNS queries (again acting like a split DNS). LMHOST file is not archaic as you claim, however it is not a manageable solution for a local network and certainly is not in use by general retail consumers.

I do not disagree that for most folks DHCP is the way to go on their networks (except for servers). And moreover that 'sticky' DHCP with a permanent or very long lease time is just as good as static IPs (ask any service provider who wants to save IPv4 blocks). My point is that it is actually a little more complicated to bind the MACaddr for a common retail user than it would be to set the static on the NIC because they 1) have to figure out the MAC on the local machine 2) have to put the assignment in at the router... both of which they are likely not familiar with...

Setting up a Static DHCP reservation is typically done via a wizard now as well where you don't need to know your MAC address. Using ARP or other protocols you can present users with a list of Host, current IP Address and MAC Address to chose from our "Copy my MAC Address". It doesn't get much simpler.

Yet to see a retail router whose wizard presents a list to choose from... perhaps this is a limit to my experience though I've had several retail routers - but I agree that that would make it much more manageable. All the ones I've seen require manually entry of the MACaddr. Btw the ARP approach is an extremely bad design and is subject to easy attack / spoofing.

And I believe it is the simpler solution for most users. You'd be amazed at how many people cut\paste my 10-net IP address I used in my guide even though they are were on 192.168.x.x address pool.

Oh no - I wouldnt be surprised by that LOL I am never shocked by the lack of basic networking experience...

Note: I would never revert back to use a consumer router again.

Neither would I... I currently work at a large networking company.

Currently only Ceton DCTs will be bound. The mechanism that limits selection is not based on IP address.

SageDCT is greedy though, it will expose every tuner that it binds to. There is not currently a way to limit that.

Good to know - but then again with 4-tuners on a Ceton (yay!), how many Ceton's does a person need?


The reason I started asking the behavior questions is I noticed someone on a different thread having issues getting the SageDCT/Ceton/SageTV combination working when the SageDCT/Ceton were not on the localhost:

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56017

Perhaps you can help them trouble shoot?

[mikinho]

Originally Posted by aweber1nj

Whether or not Verizon requires pairing of the cablecard (I don't think they do), they won't send you one for self-install (as easy as it is). Unfortunately, they will send a tech out and most times you'll be able to take it from there and just display the info in the Ceton Diagnostic so they can go home.

I know that's a bit of a tangent and only loosely related to "pairing" per se, but I wanted it to be clear for those that are still ordering the setup. It won't matter to most people whether it's paired or not -- most don't have another cablecard device sitting idle to switch the card to even if they wanted to. (Though it makes it easy to test a Prime, should you get one.)

This also varies per FiOS market. In a few markets you can self-install it. And starting in either August or December of this year they will be required to allow self-install.

[mikinho]

Originally Posted by sflamm

You are relying solely on the fact that the default subnet that InfiniTV (192.200.x.x) chooses is not in fact the subnet used at your location for the host machine of the Ceton card. Although for most consumers this is a good assumption - it is only remains good if they do not go and manually assign a static IP to the Ceton network adapter on the local subnet in use by the host machine. If I accidentally configure that to my network then I am in big trouble - the DHCP server will in fact be in conflict with existing DHCP servers on the subnet and the results will be very bad. This happens in two obvious use cases 1) manually assign a static IP 2) bridge the network directly on to the local subnet

If the host PC uses the same subnet as the InfiniTV, the InfiniTV will pick another above it. It does this to handle this scenario and to be able to have multiple InfiniTV installed in the same system all running as DHCP Servers. I currently have four.

Originally Posted by sflamm

(which apparently your network configuration 7MC setup software does automatically without informing the user!)

It does give you a warning when selecting "manual" mode but not in automatic. I have since added it as a prereq check that will be available to beta customers very soon.

It is mentioned in our KB articles but I admit that is not easy to find

Originally Posted by sflamm

Even if the network interface Ceton uses is configured to be a dhcp clien or not, if Ceton is in fact running a dhcp server on card that is bound to that interface there will be problem if it shows up on the same subnet. Therefore Ceton needs to provide a toggle to turn off the internal DHCP server (independently of the interface adapter configuration). Since I do not yet have my Ceton card in hand (in the mail) - my question is do you have a toggle to turn off the DHCP server? (as any retail consumer device does)

Yes there is a configuration setting available via the Device Webpage. You can manually switch between DHCP Server, DHCP Client and Static IP Address.

Originally Posted by sflamm

Btw the ARP approach is an extremely bad design and is subject to easy attack / spoofing.

While ARP has its faults. many in fact, I don't see why that is a concern with a home router as an extra feature. But also a moot point since I won't be using it

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by sflamm

Yet to see a retail router whose wizard presents a list to choose from... perhaps this is a limit to my experience though I've had several retail routers - but I agree that that would make it much more manageable. All the ones I've seen require manually entry of the MACaddr.

My D-Link DIR-825 presents a list of all the dynamically assigned DHCP clients and a button to grab the current PC's MAC address in the form that is used to create static DHCP assignments.

[sflamm]

If the host PC uses the same subnet as the InfiniTV, the InfiniTV will pick another above it. It does this to handle this scenario and to be able to have multiple InfiniTV installed in the same system all running as DHCP Servers.

Good to know - thanks for the clarification.

I currently have four.

Is this just for product development? You dont actually use 16 tuners do you?

Thanks for patiently answering all the questions - great information to have which I'm sure will help everyone speed through setup.

[mikinho]

Originally Posted by sflamm

Is this just for product development? You dont actually use 16 tuners do you?

A mix. Between my wife and two kids (who are "Record Series" trigger happy) there are typically betwen 8-12 tuners in use during "prime time". At least 6 of those are against network (bridged) tuners.

[Sparhawk6]

Originally Posted by mikinho

A mix. Between my wife and two kids (who are "Record Series" trigger happy) there are typically betwen 8-12 tuners in use during "prime time". At least 6 of those are against network (bridged) tuners.

Wowzers. That's crazy. Get outside a bit more?

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Sparhawk6

Wowzers. That's crazy. Get outside a bit more?

Just because you record it, doesn't mean you need to watch it. When you have more tuners than you know what to do with it's costless to build up the locally content cache.

[mikinho]

I don't actually watch much TV..lately its been Game of Thrones and The Glades

Like I said, my wife and kids are just trigger happy and I've got enough storage to not worry about cleaning it up. Plus its summer in Houston...105 outside isn't fun to play soccer

[SuiDog]

I'm running Windows 7 ultimate 64bit and this is the first combination that has been rock solid for me. I know some of the previous versions worked pretty good for 32-bit but this is the first time it's been rock solid for me. 30+ recordings and not a single error or hiccup.

SageTV 7.1.8 Beta
SageDCT 1.0.4
Ceton 1.0.6.1
Ceton in NON-Bridged mode.