The Official "Working SageTV + Ceton Firmware + SageDCT Version Combinations" thread

[sflamm]

Advice would be greatly appreciated:

Currently running SageTV 6.6.2 on Win2003R2 server (32-bit) with firewire/HDPVR for tuning/capture.

Looking to move to SageTV 7 on Win2008R2 server (64-bit) with SageDCT/Ceton (rid myself of the firewire/HDPVR combo).

The technique I am favoring is to put the SageDCT/Ceton component on its own new standalone Network Tuner Box (i.e. Shuttle) running Windows 7 (64-bit) and streaming the video to be recorded/stored on the SageTV7/Win2008R2 (upgrade of my current server box). This would be similar in configuration to a SiliconDust Prime (if it was available and if SageTV supports it).

Appreciate it if anyone could answer the following questions I have:

Standalone Network Tuning Box (Shuttle)
----------------------------------------
1. Does SageDCT need WMC or only Win7?
2. Does Ceton require WMC? (I noticed in thread that folks seem to be running WMC Setup - not sure if that is required to setup Ceton correctly)
3. Does SageTV stream the video directly from Ceton? If not, does it require the machine to be able to handle heavy disk I/O (4 HD streams written and read simultaneously from disk)?
4. The Ceton hardware requirements state that an HDCP compliant graphics card is necessary. Is this really necessary if the box is only acting as a Network Tuning Box for SageTV?

SageTV 7 / Win2008 R2 Server
------------------------------
1. If ncecessary, can SageDCT run on Win2008R2 instead of Win7?
2. Do you know of any issues running SageDCT from within a Win7 VM running on Windows Server?

Thanks in advance.

[mikinho]

Originally Posted by sflamm

1. Does SageDCT need WMC or only Win7?

Just Windows 7. It does not use WMC at all

Originally Posted by sflamm

2. Does Ceton require WMC? (I noticed in thread that folks seem to be running WMC Setup - not sure if that is required to setup Ceton correctly)

It does not.

Originally Posted by sflamm

3. Does SageTV stream the video directly from Ceton? If not, does it require the machine to be able to handle heavy disk I/O (4 HD streams written and read simultaneously from disk)?

Originally Posted by sflamm

4. The Ceton hardware requirements state that an HDCP compliant graphics card is necessary. Is this really necessary if the box is only acting as a Network Tuning Box for SageTV?

It is not, that is only needed for Windows Media Center usage

Originally Posted by sflamm

1. If ncecessary, can SageDCT run on Win2008R2 instead of Win7?

I believe so, I don't believe I saw anything that requires Windows 7. You will need enable UPnP Device Host and SSDP Discovery services though, both are disabled by default on Windows 2008 R2 and are required.

Originally Posted by sflamm

2. Do you know of any issues running SageDCT from within a Win7 VM running on Windows Server?

I would only do this if you server is VT-d capable or the InfiniTV on the server. I've had an InfiniTV running on a Windows 2008 R2 system w/o issue for months now that was bridged an a private virtual network card for the W7 RemoteFx system could record using it.

[sflamm]

Quote:Originally Posted by sflamm
2. Does Ceton require WMC? (I noticed in thread that folks seem to be running WMC Setup - not sure if that is required to setup Ceton correctly)
It does not.

Does that mean that the following instructions can be ignored?

You must run Microsoft’s Digital Cable Advisor (DCA) from the Extras Gallery in Windows Media Center. This application checks your
computer to ensure it has adequate resources to support digital cable TV services and sets up Windows to allow viewing copy-protected
cable TV content using Windows Media Center and a CableCARD-based digital cable tuner like the Ceton InfiniTV 4.

Will I need to ask Comcast to remotely activate the card? Without WMC I can not follow these instructions:

Activate your CableCARD. If your cable operator sent a technician to your home to install the CableCARD then the technician will assist
you in performing this step. If you are installing the CableCARD yourself, click Next on the Activate Your CableCARD screens.
Call your cable operator when prompted (a phone number may appear on the screen) and tell them you need to pair and activate a
CableCARD with the Ceton InfiniTV 4 OCUR digital cable tuner in your PC. Your cable operator will walk you through the process of
pairing and authenticating the CableCARD with your local cable system. During this process, you will need to provide them with
information from the TV Setup screen:

Do I use the Ceton diagnostic tool instead?

The reason I am trying to understand how to do this successfully without WMC is that the external box I want to install the Ceton card in only has 1 PCI-E slot and I'm trying to make sure I can succesfully install, activate and verify it is working without WMC which requires a HDCP compliant card that requires another PCI-E slot that I do not have....

I would only do this if you server is VT-d capable or the InfiniTV on the server. I've had an InfiniTV running on a Windows 2008 R2 system w/o issue for months now that was bridged an a private virtual network card for the W7 RemoteFx system could record using it.

The reason for running the VM is that InfiniTV states it requires Win7. How were you able to install it on Win2008R2? Does the installer permit that?

[King of Bayonne]

I may be way off base here (and will not be surprised if I am proven wrong), but the way I understand how things work:

1. The Ceton card MUST be hosted in a Windows 7 environment (physical or virtual). CableCard-based tuners are only "allowed" (and therefore only function) in operating environments in which the digital rights management can be verified and enforced. Windows 7 includes this support; to my knowledge (and my knowledge is pretty good ) Windows Server 2008 R2 does *not*.
2. The purpose of going through the initialization procedure with WMC, even if you have absolutely no intention to every actually USE WMC, is to "activate" the digital rights management "plumbing". If SageTV natively supported CableCard tuners, I suspect that it too would come with a utility/installer to initialize the environment, but it does not... thus the requirement to use WMC. Since Windows Server 2008 R2 does not include WMC, that's Strike Two against using Windows Server 2008 R2 as the Ceton hosting environment.

Again, I'm happy to be proven wrong on these two points, but I suspect you're going to have a flat forehead if you're determined to get the Ceton working in a server OS...


KoB

[sflamm]

I suspect you are correct about the DRM on Win2008R2 - which is why I was considering using a Win7 VM on the Win2008R2 server if I went that way.

My current thinking is to dedicate a separate small form factor (SFF) PC (i.e. shuttle box) to Win7 and install the Ceton there - use it as a networked tuner.
With that said, I only have 1 PCIE slot in my shuttle.

1. Can I set this up correctly without WMC? (I dont believe WMC will initialize properly without an HDCP compliant video card which the builtin Shuttle video is not - and I do not have a second slot to put such a video card in).
2. Using WMC, can I get this up and running without the HDCP compliant video card?

[heffe2001]

Originally Posted by sflamm

2. Using WMC, can I get this up and running without the HDCP compliant video card?

I'm also hoping the answer to this is yes, as I'm running an onboard card that's definitely NOT HDCP complient. I had to use the trick mentioned in this thread (halfway down, link to his solution is here. Lets you get past the digital cable advisor error on video). Hopefully King will chime in and let us know if that will work, or if I need to cough up a HDCP compliant card for the install..

[sflamm]

heffe2001 - thanks for the invaluable pointer.

My only workaround would have been to buy a PCI HDCP ready video card:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...=1&PageSize=20

Does anyone know a card they would recommend?

My Ceton is on its way - so I will try the DCA override when it arrives.

[King of Bayonne]

Originally Posted by heffe2001

Hopefully King will chime in and let us know if that will work, or if I need to cough up a HDCP compliant card for the install..

Chiming...

Originally Posted by heffe2001

I'm also hoping the answer to this is yes, as I'm running an onboard card that's definitely NOT HDCP complient.

An HDCP-compliant video path is not a requirement for WM7. You can use the non-rights-managed features exactly as expected, with any video card.

Originally Posted by heffe2001

I had to use the trick mentioned in this thread (halfway down, link to his solution is here. Lets you get past the digital cable advisor error on video).

So, once again, here's my understanding: you must run the Digital Cable Advisor to successful completion to "activate" the necessary "plumbing". The DCA is not checking for HDCP compliance, however; it's just trying to guarantee that your video card has "good enough specs" for what it considers to be "good video performance". The workaround mentioned above simply tricks the DCA into believing that your video card (whatever it is) is "good enough", so DCA runs to successful completion.

My installation is a Windows 7 x64 central server running on a Supermicro motherboard. Its on-mobo graphics chip is definitely not "good enough" for DCA; using the above workaround, DCA passed and I was able to install the Ceton successfully.

Using this workaround, you should not need to buy a new video card of any kind.


KoB

[sflamm]

Looks promising, as the only thing the script really does is call MSFT program to update machine for digital cable:

C:\Windows\assembly\GAC_MSIL\UpdateMachineForDigitalCable\UpdateMachineForDigitalCable.exe'

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by mikinho

I believe so, I don't believe I saw anything that requires Windows 7. You will need enable UPnP Device Host and SSDP Discovery services though, both are disabled by default on Windows 2008 R2 and are required.

Yep, while it hasn't been tested on W2K8R2 I'd expect it to work as long as .NET is installed and the services mentioned above are running.

[mikinho]

Originally Posted by King of Bayonne

I may be way off base here (and will not be surprised if I am proven wrong), but the way I understand how things work:

1. The Ceton card MUST be hosted in a Windows 7 environment (physical or virtual). CableCard-based tuners are only "allowed" (and therefore only function) in operating environments in which the digital rights management can be verified and enforced. Windows 7 includes this support; to my knowledge (and my knowledge is pretty good ) Windows Server 2008 R2 does *not*.
2. The purpose of going through the initialization procedure with WMC, even if you have absolutely no intention to every actually USE WMC, is to "activate" the digital rights management "plumbing". If SageTV natively supported CableCard tuners, I suspect that it too would come with a utility/installer to initialize the environment, but it does not... thus the requirement to use WMC. Since Windows Server 2008 R2 does not include WMC, that's Strike Two against using Windows Server 2008 R2 as the Ceton hosting environment.

Again, I'm happy to be proven wrong on these two points, but I suspect you're going to have a flat forehead if you're determined to get the Ceton working in a server OS...


KoB

You are wrong in both cases.

1- As I said I have an InfiniTV running in Window Server 2008 R2 and WHS 2011. There are some steps needed as I mentioned above w/ the services but all relatively simple changes.

2- There is no plumbing when it comes to Copy-Freely content. All you need is the Host ID and CableCARD serial number to give to your cable company to pair. Some companies you don't even need to do that as they do not require pairing, such as Verizon FiOS.

And I don't doubt your knowledge is good but I suspect I have more thorough understanding of both the InfiniTV and SageDCT in this case.

[mikinho]

Originally Posted by heffe2001

I'm also hoping the answer to this is yes, as I'm running an onboard card that's definitely NOT HDCP complient. I had to use the trick mentioned in this thread (halfway down, link to his solution is here. Lets you get past the digital cable advisor error on video). Hopefully King will chime in and let us know if that will work, or if I need to cough up a HDCP compliant card for the install..

Yes it works (I provided the script)

[King of Bayonne]

Originally Posted by mikinho

You are wrong in both cases.

Told ya so!

Originally Posted by mikinho

And I don't doubt your knowledge is good but I suspect I have more thorough understanding of both the InfiniTV and SageDCT in this case.

No argument here. I'd just like to reconcile your knowledge/experiences with mine so I don't hand anyone a red herring when I try to answer their questions "authoritatively".

So, can you clarify the following for me...

Originally Posted by mikinho

1- As I said I have an InfiniTV running in Window Server 2008 R2 and WHS 2011. There are some steps needed as I mentioned above w/ the services but all relatively simple changes.

I am surprised, but not incredulous, that you can run the InfiniTV with a CableCard in Windows Server 2008 R2. That being the case, it seems to me that there has to be a digital rights enforcement framework in place SOMEWHERE in your solution in order to successfully use CableCard. So I'm *presuming* that, even though you may be able to host the InfiniTV in a server OS as a network tuner, the software actually CONSUMING the network tuner (SageDCT) has to be hosted in Windows 7...? In other words, regardless of the OS you use to host the tuner card, that does not remove the requirement that SageDCT needs to be running in a Windows 7 environment...?

Originally Posted by mikinho

2- There is no plumbing when it comes to Copy-Freely content.

I was greatly oversimplifying when I referred to "plumbing". The point I was asserting is that you DO need to run the DCA to configure/enable/prod/whatever the digital rights infrastructure in order to prepare the Windows 7 system to work with CableCard, even if you do not actually use WMC7. Is that incorrect?

Originally Posted by mikinho

All you need is the Host ID and CableCARD serial number to give to your cable company to pair. Some companies you don't even need to do that as they do not require pairing, such as Verizon FiOS.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here regarding FiOS. Are you claiming that, if the tech showed up and handed me the CableCard and I plugged it in but we did NOT go through the pairing process, that things should still work? That was certainly not my experience... when I plugged in the card, I got the expected mostly-all-green status from the Ceton diagnostics, but I couldn't actually tune any channels and get valid content until the tech paired the card...

I appreciate you taking the time to clarify your responses and flesh out my understanding of all of this...


KoB

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by King of Bayonne

I am surprised, but not incredulous, that you can run the InfiniTV with a CableCard in Windows Server 2008 R2. That being the case, it seems to me that there has to be a digital rights enforcement framework in place SOMEWHERE in your solution in order to successfully use CableCard. So I'm *presuming* that, even though you may be able to host the InfiniTV in a server OS as a network tuner, the software actually CONSUMING the network tuner (SageDCT) has to be hosted in Windows 7...? In other words, regardless of the OS you use to host the tuner card, that does not remove the requirement that SageDCT needs to be running in a Windows 7 environment...?

The Ceton card is just a UPnP device, so as long as the UPnP services are enabled and running (and that's only because SageDCT now uses the UPnP API included with Windows (which I think it was introduced in XP, so technically you could run SageDCT on XP*)) it should work regardless of the underlying platform.

Originally Posted by King of Bayonne

I was greatly oversimplifying when I referred to "plumbing". The point I was asserting is that you DO need to run the DCA to configure/enable/prod/whatever the digital rights infrastructure in order to prepare the Windows 7 system to work with CableCard, even if you do not actually use WMC7. Is that incorrect?

The DRM bits (i.e. certificate exchange) are only required to enable Copy Once content. So in this context (using SageDCT) the statement is incorrect. I did not run DCA or setup the card in 7MC on my current production system.

* SageDCT will not install on platforms before Windows 7 (VersionNT >= 601)

[Deacon Crusher]

Truth

I'm trying to get this working and not quite understanding something.

On my win 7 box that has ceton in it I can use the ceton fine inside wmc. I setup sagedct on that box and built the config. Moved it to my xp box running latest sage. Configured all and sage sees tuner and tunes channel (I can see that on the 7 box) but I get no video on sage box.

Any tips/ideas? Not clear why I need bridging running and or how to get it (Ceton) properly setup in bridging mode.

thanks

Originally Posted by The Truth

I have mine bridged, because its installed on a different server than my sage server. its using the network adapter on the sage server as if the centon card is installed on the same computer as the sage server when it is bridged.

it works greats. but i want my server to be able to switch to a different tuner if the other computer is powered down.

BASICALLY WHEN YOU BRIDGE THE CARD, IT BECOMES A NETWORK CABLE CARD TUNER....

[mikinho]

Originally Posted by King of Bayonne

No argument here. I'd just like to reconcile your knowledge/experiences with mine so I don't hand anyone a red herring when I try to answer their questions "authoritatively".

I work for Ceton (I didn't when I published the DCA override and the Mikinho InfiniTV Network Tuner Sharing app)

Also used Babgvant's SageDCT before it went public so I have more experience with it than most other than Andy himself

Originally Posted by King of Bayonne

I am surprised, but not incredulous, that you can run the InfiniTV with a CableCard in Windows Server 2008 R2. That being the case, it seems to me that there has to be a digital rights enforcement framework in place SOMEWHERE in your solution in order to successfully use CableCard. So I'm *presuming* that, even though you may be able to host the InfiniTV in a server OS as a network tuner, the software actually CONSUMING the network tuner (SageDCT) has to be hosted in Windows 7...? In other words, regardless of the OS you use to host the tuner card, that does not remove the requirement that SageDCT needs to be running in a Windows 7 environment...?

Like babgvant said, the InfiniTV is essentially UPnP tuner. Or to be more accurate the InfiniTV is a network device which communicates using UPnP as described in the Digitial Receiver Interface (DRI) specification from CableLabs. (You can find the DRI spec here: http://www.cablelabs.com/specificati...I04-100910.pdf)

SageDCT is not using the CableCARD so it does not need to know how to decrypt anything...all that happens on the InfiniTV itself, not on the operating system.

Originally Posted by King of Bayonne

I was greatly oversimplifying when I referred to "plumbing". The point I was asserting is that you DO need to run the DCA to configure/enable/prod/whatever the digital rights infrastructure in order to prepare the Windows 7 system to work with CableCard, even if you do not actually use WMC7. Is that incorrect?

That is incorrect. DCA is only needed for Media Center 7 usage. And it is only needed to enable support for OCUR tuners in Media Center since prior Windows 7 it was only available to OEMs. It doesn't actually do any type of DRI\DRM at all. Universal support for OCUR\MOCUR tuners didn't make it into W7 RTM so the DCA was a way to bypass the OEM\BIOS lock down.

Prior to a change CableLabs made last year to the specs all content coming off of a DRI needed to be wrapped in a form of DRM so even Copy-Freely content previously needed DRM but not anymore.

Originally Posted by King of Bayonne

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here regarding FiOS. Are you claiming that, if the tech showed up and handed me the CableCard and I plugged it in but we did NOT go through the pairing process, that things should still work? That was certainly not my experience... when I plugged in the card, I got the expected mostly-all-green status from the Ceton diagnostics, but I couldn't actually tune any channels and get valid content until the tech paired the card...

That is exactly what I'm suggesting for FiOS customers. It varies per market but in general only those areas purchased by Frontier have started pairing CableCARDS with Host Devices. There are a handful of smaller cable companies that do that as well. It wasn't even that long ago that Verizon FiOS didn't even Copy Protect HBO and other premium channels.

[aweber1nj]

Whether or not Verizon requires pairing of the cablecard (I don't think they do), they won't send you one for self-install (as easy as it is). Unfortunately, they will send a tech out and most times you'll be able to take it from there and just display the info in the Ceton Diagnostic so they can go home.

I know that's a bit of a tangent and only loosely related to "pairing" per se, but I wanted it to be clear for those that are still ordering the setup. It won't matter to most people whether it's paired or not -- most don't have another cablecard device sitting idle to switch the card to even if they wanted to. (Though it makes it easy to test a Prime, should you get one.)

I have the latest beta firmware installed and the latest SageDCT service running, and it's "very close". I think I have issues with the infinitv card more than anything. Andy has be phenomenal at helping me troubleshoot the setup. I still get "No Signal" at (mostly) random times, and sometimes changing the channel up/down one channel and back fixes that -- but that shouldn't be required. It should "just work". I have a very low SAF right now and I'm borderline ready to throw it thru the window at times, but I'm not giving up. It has such promise -- and like I said, Andy's SageDCT is perfect for what it does, I think Ceton has a bunch of work to still do.

[sflamm]

mikinho,

Could you please answer the following questions for me?

1. Above you state that you are running the Ceton card on a Win2008R2 server (yay!) ... I have been told by babgvant that Ceton only supported Win 7 drivers - that the installer will not run.

Is it correct to assume based on your information that I can successfully run the Ceton installer on win2008R2? Or is there some other method for installation?

(I understand I would need to enable the need enable UPnP Device Host and SSDP Discovery services) to allow it to work

2. SageDCT appears to be able to be installed anywhere (in theory) but in practice requires Windows 7 or later (includes Win2008R2 but no Windows XP). It's job appears to be to talk to the Ceton uPnP server and act as a network encoder for SageTV (a feature long in SageTV).

Most of SageTV users have no reason to want to run 7MC - and have no need for video that is not "copy freely" (what would they do with it inside SageTV?)

It should not be required to run DCA, correct? (as we do not need 7MC and therefore do not need OCUR tuners to work)

You state you have done this:

I did not run DCA or setup the card in 7MC on my current production system.

How (steps please) do we setup/bind SageDCT to Ceton without using 7MC?

3. On activating the M-card you stated:

There is no plumbing when it comes to Copy-Freely content. All you need is the Host ID and CableCARD serial number to give to your cable company to pair.

I assume I can get the cable card serial number using the Ceton diagnostic tool (or simply printed on the card). Is the host id an identifier for the Ceton and where do we find the Host ID?

4. You wrote a guide and tool on bridging the Ceton network interface with the OS network interface

http://www.missingremote.com/guide/s...t-htpc-systems

Even after logging in to missing remote and looking at the botton the tool is nowhere to be found... where do we locate it please?

Also, why bridge the network interface at all? Not sure what the advantage is here?

[sflamm]

One more follow-on question:

To install the beta firmware one needs to join the beta program? I assume that is open to everyone?

[mikinho]

Originally Posted by sflamm

mikinho,

Could you please answer the following questions for me?

I can try

Originally Posted by sflamm

1. Above you state that you are running the Ceton card on a Win2008R2 server (yay!) ... I have been told by babgvant that Ceton only supported Win 7 drivers - that the installer will not run.

Is it correct to assume based on your information that I can successfully run the Ceton installer on win2008R2? Or is there some other method for installation?

(I understand I would need to enable the need enable UPnP Device Host and SSDP Discovery services) to allow it to work

Windows 2008 R2 (and WHS 2011) share a code base with Windows 7. Most drivers will work on either. When babgvant said Windows 7 drivers he was implying Windows 2008 R2 as well.

The Network Tuner Wizard will only install on Windows 7 since it a Media Center add-in to aid in Network Bridging.

Originally Posted by sflamm

2. SageDCT appears to be able to be installed anywhere (in theory) but in practice requires Windows 7 or later (includes Win2008R2 but no Windows XP). It's job appears to be to talk to the Ceton uPnP server and act as a network tuner for SageTV (a feature long in SageTV).

Most of SageTV users have no reason to want to run 7MC - and have no need for video that is not "copy freely" (what would they do with it inside SageTV?)

It should not be required to run DCA, correct? (as we do not need 7MC and therefore do not need OCUR tuners to work)

You state you have done this:

How (steps please) do we setup/bind SageDCT to Ceton without using 7MC?

That is correct, no 7MC setup is required. As Andy stated he did not do any setup within Media Center. For instructions I'll leave you to check babgvant.com

Originally Posted by sflamm

3. On activating the M-card you stated:

I assume I can get the cable card serial number using the Ceton diagnostic tool (or simply printed on the card). Is the host id an identifier for the Ceton and where do we find the Host ID?

You can get both the Host ID and Serial Number from either the Diagnostics or the Device Website. The Serial Number is also on the card itself.

Originally Posted by sflamm

4. You wrote a guide and tool on bridging the Ceton network interface with the OS network interface

http://www.missingremote.com/guide/s...t-htpc-systems

Even after logging in to missing remote and looking at the botton the tool is nowhere to be found... where do we locate it please?

Also, why bridge the network interface at all? Not sure what the advantage is here?

It was removed prior to the release of an official product. There is no need to bridge with a SageDCT. You can but you are then adding an extra step.