cable card, ceton, firewire, etc.

[The Truth]

Sorry for spamming this thread, but I'm returning my 3 Colossus cards, and getting a Ceton InfiniTV4. Seems like this is a much better way to go.

* non-Colossus series of posts split to new topic *

[uberpixel]

Originally Posted by The Truth

Sorry for spamming this thread, but I'm returning my 3 Colossus cards, and getting a Ceton InfiniTV4. Seems like this is a much better way to go.

I don't blame you. I would have gone the Ceton route except I want to keep running Sage on Windows Home Server v1. And that Ceton card is expensive - but not compared to buying 3 Colossuses.

You may realize this, but you'll need to upgrade your system to Windows 7 (or WHS v2). The Ceton card won't work with XP.

I'm still hoping that we are suffering from early adopter syndrome and that with time these issues will be addressed - although Hauppauge doesn't exactly have a stellar track record for working out the bugs after a product is released.

-uberpixel

[bits]

Originally Posted by uberpixel

I don't blame you. I would have gone the Ceton route except I want to keep running Sage on Windows Home Server v1. And that Ceton card is expensive - but not compared to buying 3 Colossuses.

You may realize this, but you'll need to upgrade your system to Windows 7 (or WHS v2). The Ceton card won't work with XP.

I'm still hoping that we are suffering from early adopter syndrome and that with time these issues will be addressed - although Hauppauge doesn't exactly have a stellar track record for working out the bugs after a product is released.

-uberpixel

Is the Ceton supported by Sage?

[The Truth]

Originally Posted by uberpixel

I don't blame you. I would have gone the Ceton route except I want to keep running Sage on Windows Home Server v1. And that Ceton card is expensive - but not compared to buying 3 Colossuses.

You may realize this, but you'll need to upgrade your system to Windows 7 (or WHS v2). The Ceton card won't work with XP.

I'm still hoping that we are suffering from early adopter syndrome and that with time these issues will be addressed - although Hauppauge doesn't exactly have a stellar track record for working out the bugs after a product is released.

-uberpixel

The only reason I was using XP was for the firewire Channel Changing. I AM EXCITED to use win7 now I can add more than 4 gigs or ram! and now i will have 4 HD tuners instead of 3, and can get rid of all my STBs. Very Awesome. I will be saving $15 a month I believe.

EDIT: I understand if I wait the driver will be fixed soon and it will probably work great. But this Ceton Card is 4 tuners in 1 Slot, and only use 1 Multistream Cable Card, so the card does all the tuning. Pretty sick, I read on the forums that it looks like an easy install, and havent seen any issues.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by The Truth

The only reason I was using XP was for the firewire Channel Changing. I AM EXCITED to use win7 now I can add more than 4 gigs or ram! and now i will have 4 HD tuners instead of 3, and can get rid of all my STBs. Very Awesome. I will be saving $15 a month I believe.

EDIT: I understand if I wait the driver will be fixed soon and it will probably work great. But this Ceton Card is 4 tuners in 1 Slot, and only use 1 Multistream Cable Card, so the card does all the tuning. Pretty sick, I read on the forums that it looks like an easy install, and havent seen any issues.

So I guess you are going WMC? You understand Ceton only works with Babgvant's app on sagetv and then only if the stuff isn't marked with copy protection. Be careful what you are getting into. Some carriers are lucky and all stuff is open others like mine markes everything with copy protection.

What I am saying is you are not comparing apples to apples. Ceton is a great product but doesn't take the place of collussus/hdpvr for most users especially with sagetv involved.

[Taddeusz]

I'm not sure about all cable companies but the general rule of thumb is that in regard to CableCard on SageTV is that you probably will not be able to get any more than you do with a QAM tuner. I know that to be the case with my Cox Cable. They have EVERYTHING marked at least copy once except those channels available in clear QAM.

The reason I know this is that I tried seeing what I could get via Firewire but it turned out to be very little. As a matter of fact, there were a couple channels available in clear QAM that I could not get through Firewire. Very strange.

Keep this in mind as you're ordering your Ceton card.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

I'm not sure about all cable companies but the general rule of thumb is that in regard to CableCard on SageTV is that you probably will not be able to get any more than you do with a QAM tuner. I know that to be the case with my Cox Cable.

What you get over firewire is probably a better rule of thumb. It really depends on provider you have. From what I understand, Brighthouse, Cox, and TWC mark nearly all of their channels copy-once. Comcast and (usually) Verizon mark most of their channels copy-freely.

At least, that's what they do now. They can change it at almost any time, and the vast majority of customers wouldn't even notice, much less complain. That's my biggest fear.

The HD-PVR and the Colossus have been great achievements and disappointments at the same time. Without them a lot of us wouldn't have any way of getting HD video into our Sage boxes, but we're three years in and there's still stability problems. It seems like Hauppauge is having a lot more problems with the HD-PVR and the Colossus than they ever did with the PVR or HVR series of tuners and capture cards.

I've been using an HD-PVR, with half-way decent luck (1 lock-up every 3 weeks or so). I have a Colossus sitting in a box, too terrified to even try to set it up, as I don't want to upset the delicate balance of the components in my Sage server. Once things settle down I'd like to replace my firewire-recording STB with an HDHR Prime (assuming its compatible with Sage) and use whichever of the HD-PVRs (the USB model or the Colossus) looks to be more stable.

[The Truth]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

I'm not sure about all cable companies but the general rule of thumb is that in regard to CableCard on SageTV is that you probably will not be able to get any more than you do with a QAM tuner. I know that to be the case with my Cox Cable. They have EVERYTHING marked at least copy once except those channels available in clear QAM.

The reason I know this is that I tried seeing what I could get via Firewire but it turned out to be very little. As a matter of fact, there were a couple channels available in clear QAM that I could not get through Firewire. Very strange.

Keep this in mind as you're ordering your Ceton card.

Firewire is different that the Cable card, from what I read it looks like this should work. I have tried firewire also. You are supposed to use SageDCT, and that sets the Ceton card up as 4 tuners, and from what I have read I should be able to get all my channels. Do you get all channels when a cablecard is used in a TIVO because this should be the same as that.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by The Truth

Firewire is different that the Cable card, from what I read it looks like this should work. I have tried firewire also. You are supposed to use SageDCT, and that sets the Ceton card up as 4 tuners, and from what I have read I should be able to get all my channels. Do you get all channels when a cablecard is used in a TIVO because this should be the same as that.

It is not the same as TIVO. Tivo can handle the copyrighted material. Ceton can to but only in WMC. You will not get the copyrighted channels in sagetv end of story as sagetv doesn't have the drm structure or support for ceton card. Firewire is a good tell because most cable companies match the encryption on cable card. So I think you are misunderstanding and will be dissapointed when you get the tuner.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by The Truth

Firewire is different that the Cable card, from what I read it looks like this should work. I have tried firewire also. You are supposed to use SageDCT, and that sets the Ceton card up as 4 tuners, and from what I have read I should be able to get all my channels. Do you get all channels when a cablecard is used in a TIVO because this should be the same as that.

Firewire and CableCard both follow the same set of copy flagging rules. The loophole that's being used for SageTV is that channels that are flagged as "Copy Freely" can be stored without copy protection. Neither CableCard or Firewire are allowed to remove encryption from the video unless it is flagged properly. What that means for us is that, unless you are using Windows Media Center 7, for now Ceton cards will only let you to capture those channels flagged "copy freely". All other channels are off limits to SageTV. If you have a cable STB with Firewire you might probe with VLC and figure out which channels you will be able to receive. You might get lucky but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

[The Truth]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Firewire and CableCard both follow the same set of copy flagging rules. The loophole that's being used for SageTV is that channels that are flagged as "Copy Freely" can be stored without copy protection. Neither CableCard or Firewire are allowed to remove encryption from the video unless it is flagged properly. What that means for us is that, unless you are using Windows Media Center 7, for now Ceton cards will only let you to capture those channels flagged "copy freely". All other channels are off limits to SageTV. If you have a cable STB with Firewire you might probe with VLC and figure out which channels you will be able to receive. You might get lucky but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Crusher
Maybe a silly question but from your description it almost sounds like you are running 7MC configured just for your ceton on the same box you are running Sage? Is that possible?

You are correct sir. One box running both 7MC and SageTV.


Quote:
And how many simultaneous streams have you managed to pull from 7MC into Sage?

4

My understanding was that SageMCTuner used Media Center 7 to tune the Channels and brings them into sage.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by The Truth

My understanding was that SageMCTuner used Media Center 7 to tune the Channels and brings them into sage.

It does. But only channels that are marked "copy freely" and as a result do not have the Media Center encryption applied to them.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

you probably will not be able to get any more than you do with a QAM tuner.

Originally Posted by reggie14

What you get over firewire is probably a better rule of thumb.

Neither are a good proxy for what will be marked copy freely (and therefore work). Most STB have a way to see what is copy-freely, and what isn't, in the diagnostics menus - that's the only way to get an accurate read. For e.g. last time I checked, I can record one channel over FW (ESPN2 HD) but everything I've tried works with SageDCT.

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Firewire and CableCard both follow the same set of copy flagging rules. The loophole that's being used for SageTV is that channels that are flagged as "Copy Freely" can be stored without copy protection.

It's not a loop hole; CableLabs specifically clarified/changed the rules on how recordings can be handled by the DCT. FWIW, the part they changed was actually related to transport, not storage (7MC has was able to put unencrypted bits on the disc before the change - what SageMCTuner exploited to turn 7MC into a tuner).

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by reggie14

What you get over firewire is probably a better rule of thumb. It really depends on provider you have. From what I understand, Brighthouse, Cox, and TWC mark nearly all of their channels copy-once. Comcast and (usually) Verizon mark most of their channels copy-freely.

At least, that's what they do now. They can change it at almost any time, and the vast majority of customers wouldn't even notice, much less complain. That's my biggest fear.

The HD-PVR and the Colossus have been great achievements and disappointments at the same time. Without them a lot of us wouldn't have any way of getting HD video into our Sage boxes, but we're three years in and there's still stability problems. It seems like Hauppauge is having a lot more problems with the HD-PVR and the Colossus than they ever did with the PVR or HVR series of tuners and capture cards.

I've been using an HD-PVR, with half-way decent luck (1 lock-up every 3 weeks or so). I have a Colossus sitting in a box, too terrified to even try to set it up, as I don't want to upset the delicate balance of the components in my Sage server. Once things settle down I'd like to replace my firewire-recording STB with an HDHR Prime (assuming its compatible with Sage) and use whichever of the HD-PVRs (the USB model or the Colossus) looks to be more stable.

Lots of mis-information floating around here. I would trust what Babgvant posted a couple of posts up (he is actually developing this stuff and generally knows what he's talking about).

Clear-QAM, Firewire, and Cable Card copy flags are all independent copy protection schemes each with their own rules. Some providers might use the same guidelines for all of them, others will not and what they are doing now could change in the future. For the moment at least, it appears that most people are able to get more channels as "Copy Freely" with cable card than they can get with either Firewire or Clear-QAM. This could change at any time and may be different depending on where you live, so you will have to investigate for yourself.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by Tiki

Clear-QAM, Firewire, and Cable Card copy flags are all independent copy protection schemes each with their own rules.

Have a quote on that? Are there actual documented cases of CableCard flagging being different than Firewire flagging?

It is my understand that CableCard and conversely Firewire both use 5C content flagging. My STB from Cox Cable has both a CableCard installed within it and has Firewire ports available so how would that affect things?

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Have a quote on that? Are there actual documented cases of CableCard flagging being different than Firewire flagging?

It is my understand that CableCard and conversely Firewire both use 5C content flagging. My STB from Cox Cable has both a CableCard installed within it and has Firewire ports available so how would that affect things?

The flagging isn't different per se, but the results are because there isn't 5C compliant PC FW adapter (the role that the DCT plays in this system). So in practice you will observe different results - like I have (a few posts before this one). With the recent clarification it should be possible for STBs to be updated to only use 5C on content that is not copy-freely, but since there's little incentive for OEMs to do that, or Cable providers to qualify and release the firmware I'm not holding my breath.

[The Truth]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Have a quote on that? Are there actual documented cases of CableCard flagging being different than Firewire flagging?

It is my understand that CableCard and conversely Firewire both use 5C content flagging. My STB from Cox Cable has both a CableCard installed within it and has Firewire ports available so how would that affect things?

I have a documented case here at my house tried firewire on 2xqip7100s and qip7232 and barely got anything, and have a ceton and get all channels And the below Quote is the exact reason why.

Originally Posted by babgvant

The flagging isn't different per se, but the results are because there isn't 5C compliant PC FW adapter (the role that the DCT plays in this system). So in practice you will observe different results - like I have (a few posts before this one). With the recent clarification it should be possible for STBs to be updated to only use 5C on content that is not copy-freely, but since there's little incentive for OEMs to do that, or Cable providers to qualify and release the firmware I'm not holding my breath.

[Taddeusz]

I wish I could afford to test the this on Cox Cable here in OKC. No way we could afford to drop that much. A new laptop is coming before that since the PowerBook decided to stop charging.

[The Truth]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

I wish I could afford to test the this on Cox Cable here in OKC. No way we could afford to drop that much. A new laptop is coming before that since the PowerBook decided to stop charging.

I believe u can look at the channels through your cable box and see if there is copy protection on them. 00x0 - if there is a 1 i think u might not be able to get that channel, i dont remember if this is correct or not though. i love my card. i only have 1 issue with it. but ceton says its the cable card not their card... when i restart the computer i have to do a full power down then power up or else the card has an issue syncing to my cable provider. ceton said to get a new card. but i dont really restart my server much so it doesnt bother me too much.

[The Truth]

Originally Posted by The Truth

I believe u can look at the channels through your cable box and see if there is copy protection on them. 00x0 - if there is a 1 i think u might not be able to get that channel, i dont remember if this is correct or not though. i love my card. i only have 1 issue with it. but ceton says its the cable card not their card... when i restart the computer i have to do a full power down then power up or else the card has an issue syncing to my cable provider. ceton said to get a new card. but i dont really restart my server much so it doesnt bother me too much.

actually the copy protection thing may be wrong. i dont know anymore. i think depending if u use dct or mctuner