New FCC Order on CableCards re SageTV

[reggie14]

While I just ranted about my complaints about the HD-PVR, I do think its a good option (just not great). I think it will work for most people fairly well. I'd prefer a cablecard solution too, but I don't think its worth waiting indefinitely for something that may never happen. The HDHR Prime is coming soon. We'll probably find out in a month or two if Sage is going to support non-copy-protected content from the HDHR Prime. If the answer is yes, it might be worth finding out if your cable company copy protects the channels you want to record. In general, if you go with Comcast you're mostly OK (everything is usually copy-freely except premium channels), but if you're with Time Warner it probably won't work.

So, if you're a Comcast user without an HD-PVR, that really wants cablecard, it might be worth waiting another couple months to see if the HDHR Prime is an option. But if its not I think its time to give the HD-PVR a chance.

[Fuzzy]

I, personally, wouldn't spend the money on the HDHR Prime, if it only works with copy-freely content in sage. As evident with ClearQAM, Firewire, etc - copy freely anything likely won't last long. The worst situation will come when certain shows start being locked down, in which case, sage will not KNOW what is going to be copy freely (therefore, work) or not (not work) resulting in MORE missed recordings that you might 'potentially' have with the 'works for everything HD-PVR. That said - It just reaffirms my happiness with the R-5000HD. i can record anything I subscribe to - the only thing that will ever change that, would be if some many years down the road, Dish, for some reason, locks out the ViP-211 boxes - which they likely will never do (they still allow activation of even older boxes, even though they don't even get any of the HD channels due to not supporting MPEG4). Plus, I love that my recordings are only 5Mbps, and every bit as good quality as the 12Mbps HD-PVR recordings would be.

[sTVb]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I, personally, wouldn't spend the money on the HDHR Prime, if it only works with copy-freely content in sage. As evident with ClearQAM, Firewire, etc - copy freely anything likely won't last long. The worst situation will come when certain shows start being locked down, in which case, sage will not KNOW what is going to be copy freely (therefore, work) or not (not work) resulting in MORE missed recordings that you might 'potentially' have with the 'works for everything HD-PVR. That said - It just reaffirms my happiness with the R-5000HD. i can record anything I subscribe to - the only thing that will ever change that, would be if some many years down the road, Dish, for some reason, locks out the ViP-211 boxes - which they likely will never do (they still allow activation of even older boxes, even though they don't even get any of the HD channels due to not supporting MPEG4). Plus, I love that my recordings are only 5Mbps, and every bit as good quality as the 12Mbps HD-PVR recordings would be.

Well for the price of your R-5000HD someone could get a HDHR PRIME and a HD-PVR. just saying...

Personally, I look forward to the PRIME. I see it as the logical successor to the HDHR. As long as you don't go into it expecting to be able to get every channel forever, it's all good.

PS: As a family that needs closed captions - the HD-PVR will only ever bee a very last resort, we use captions but REALLY don't want to have them burned into the recording.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by sTVb

Well for the price of your R-5000HD someone could get a HDHR PRIME and a HD-PVR. just saying...

Well, in this case, you DO get what you pay for.. also, keep in mind, I bought my R-5000HD's before the HD-PVR existed, and, since I'm not afraid of a soldering iron, it really wasn't THAT expensive (I think I paid $250 each).

[panteragstk]

The argument for a cable card solution to me isn't that much of one. How many people actually use cable? My only option is time warner, so cable card in sage wouldn't even help me. I mean, I guess I could pay more for less channels than directv, dish, or u-verse, but I've been happy with ota for a while now. I do miss espn and fsn, but that's about it. I'm going to get directv and an hdpvr and see how it works soon, but I'd really like to see an official solution from directv or something other than cable card.

[Taddeusz]

From the sampling I've seen on here there are a significant number of people, including myself, who use cable. I've checked prices on both Dish and DirecTV and after finding the plan that includes all the channels that both my wife and I want the cost is about the same. So then the argument becomes, why change if it's not going to provide any appreciable benefits? And if CC or Allvid ever become a reality for SageTV that would definitely provide a benefit for myself and my family. Your argument is most definitely a logical fallacy. Just because CC might not benefit you doesn't mean that it won't benefit others.

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

The argument for a cable card solution to me isn't that much of one. How many people actually use cable?

Cable is by far the best option I have. I live far enough away from any transmitters that I would need a large outdoor antenna to get decent reception. Dish or DirectTV would require an antenna on the front of my house and the headache of dealing with their boxes. I have only 1 option for cable, but I get good service and given the channels I get the price is acceptable. I know there are many people unhappy with their cable company, but I suspect there are also many that are happy.

If there was a decent cable-card solution available for Sage, I get it in an instant, DRM and all.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

If there was a decent cable-card solution available for Sage, I get it in an instant, DRM and all.

I think this is the key here. To be worth it, at least to me, it would HAVE to have DRM. This is simply because if it can't get all the channels I subscribe to, I'd rather use the HD-PVR, which can.

EDIT: I would really only go cablecard if it fully supported all tennants of teh cablelabs certification. That is, keeping flagged material in the protected path, and keeping copy freely out of the protected path. Also, There should be a mechanism to downscale flagged content to SD and allow that downscaled content outside of the protected path. All of this is premitted by the CableLabs specs. This would allow the recordings to still be watchable on non-protected devices (MediaMVP, Placehshifter, HD100, HD200), just in SD, and still allow full HD playback on capable devices (HD300, PC Client). (would also lead to still having comskip capabilities, by analysing the SD version)

[KeithAbbott]

So thinking ahead to the general availability of the HDHR Prime, and the hopeful support of same in SageTV, how can I tell which cable stations are being broadcast (at least at that moment in time, knowing that it can be changed at any point in the future at the whim of the cable company) with the "copy freely" flag set? I can think of two options:

1. Call the 800 number for the cable company, and ask the level 1 customer support rep. After the call ends, determine for yourself whether you believe whatever answer they gave you to get you off the phone as quickly as possible.
2. Purchase the HDHR Prime, and find out for yourself whether you just wasted $250 or not.

Do any of the existing cable boxes display the flag onscreen (maybe if you push the "info" button on the cable box remote)? Is there a third option that I have not thought of?

p.s. My cable provider is Brighthouse, and based on googling, it doesn't sound like I can expect any channels but the broadcast OTA channels to be flagged as copy freely. Not sure if that is a more reliable source than a Brighthouse CR or not...

[Taddeusz]

In my experience you can't even expect those channels to be marked copy freely. A while back I did some poking around with FireWire on my cable box. Basically most everything I received through clear qam I could get through FireWire. Except, there were a couple of the locals that were marked otherwise and couldn't be viewed even though they are broadcast in the clear. So you really can't guarantee what channels you'd be able to receive on CC vs clear qam.

[barney B.A.]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

EDIT: I would really only go cablecard if it fully supported all tennants of teh cablelabs certification. That is, keeping flagged material in the protected path, and keeping copy freely out of the protected path. Also, There should be a mechanism to downscale flagged content to SD and allow that downscaled content outside of the protected path. All of this is premitted by the CableLabs specs. This would allow the recordings to still be watchable on non-protected devices (MediaMVP, Placehshifter, HD100, HD200), just in SD, and still allow full HD playback on capable devices (HD300, PC Client). (would also lead to still having comskip capabilities, by analysing the SD version)

I totally agree with this. I would seriously consider CC under these conditions.

[panteragstk]

I had honestly wanted to use cablecard with fios, but after they sold a market in arizona and it went from all copy freely to copy once I don't think I have faith in any provider to support cablecard properly. I have even called cable companies to see what they think of cablecard and they seem to think it is unreliable. Who knows. I still don't understand why all of the cable and dish providers are so hell bent on keeping their own stbs mandatory. Do they really think the diy crowd is so big that it would destroy their profit margins? Doubt it. Especially since most consumers would never even consider a diy option in the first place. it goes back to the blu-ray drm issues. Yes, people do steal movies, but for us honest consumers we shouldn't have to do a firmware update just to play a rented movie. Drm has its place, but that shouldn't prevent legit persons from accessing content they are paying for. Why can't there just be a universal input (hdmi would work, but noooo) into our computers to capture and be done with it.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

Do any of the existing cable boxes display the flag onscreen (maybe if you push the "info" button on the cable box remote)? Is there a third option that I have not thought of?

I think most HD cable boxes have a diagnostic screen that will tell you the copy protection flags for a particular channel. However, from what I've heard, while FiOS and Comcast tend to mark all non-premium channels copy-freely, Bright House Networks and Time Warner Cable tend to mark most channels copy-once. Even if Sage does support the HDHR Prime, I wouldn't get it if I were you.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

I had honestly wanted to use cablecard with fios, but after they sold a market in arizona and it went from all copy freely to copy once I don't think I have faith in any provider to support cablecard properly. I have even called cable companies to see what they think of cablecard and they seem to think it is unreliable.

This is really my biggest problem with CableCard, nobody (cable companies) wants to support it. The flags can change on a whim, etc, etc.

Who knows. I still don't understand why all of the cable and dish providers are so hell bent on keeping their own stbs mandatory. Do they really think the diy crowd is so big that it would destroy their profit margins? Doubt it.

Right, I don't think they're "hell bent" on keeping them mandatory, I think the "problem" is there's no standard, and the "DIY" market is so infinitesimally small that it's not even a dot on their radar. There's just no incentive to develop a "common" solution when nobody will use it.

Just look at the now dead Dish and DTV PC solutions, both companies entertained the idea, probably let MS spend it's dime developing them, but when it came to release them they didn't even make it to market.

it goes back to the blu-ray drm issues. Yes, people do steal movies, but for us honest consumers we shouldn't have to do a firmware update just to play a rented movie. Drm has its place, but that shouldn't prevent legit persons from accessing content they are paying for. Why can't there just be a universal input (hdmi would work, but noooo) into our computers to capture and be done with it.

You mean like DVB Conditional Access/Common Interface?

[KeithAbbott]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I think most HD cable boxes have a diagnostic screen that will tell you the copy protection flags for a particular channel. However, from what I've heard, while FiOS and Comcast tend to mark all non-premium channels copy-freely, Bright House Networks and Time Warner Cable tend to mark most channels copy-once. Even if Sage does support the HDHR Prime, I wouldn't get it if I were you.

Well, I can confirm what you are saying. Coincidentally, I happened to find the information about the diagnostic screen for my cable box, and I just spent some time looking up the DRM and CCI codes for various channels. Most of the channels were set to DRM: 0x01 (set) and CCI: 0x02 (copy once). Of the ten or so channels that I looked up, only the Discovery HD channel had CCI:0x00 (copy free). To Fuzzy's earlier point, the digital SD versions of the same channels were also set to DRM: 0x01 (set) and CCI: 0x02 (copy once), which kinda sucks (not that I would be all that interested in the SD version of the channels). So I'm thinking that SiliconDust isn't gonna be selling many of their HDHR Prime units to SageTV/Brighthouse customers.

p.s. since I don't currently subscribe to any premium channels, I didn't check any of them. But I can't imagine that the CCI flag would be less restrictive for pay channels than for the non-premium channels.

p.p.s. looks like I need to get my HD-PVR working a little better with Sage...

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

I still don't understand why all of the cable and dish providers are so hell bent on keeping their own stbs mandatory. Do they really think the diy crowd is so big that it would destroy their profit margins? Doubt it.

I don't think they're that concerned about the DIY crowd. They're probably a bit more concerned about the TiVo crowd. Keep in mind it's likely less about revenue from STBs rentals, and more about ensuring people can still access premium features like pay-per-view movies. The cable companies have been moderately supportive of efforts like AllVid and tru2way, but they want to control the interface.

In any event, I doubt even that's their real motivation. Truly supporting do-it-yourselfers would not just cost them some revenue, it would almost certainly cost them much more to support than they'd get back from users. Because the DIY market is so small there's very little reason for them to go out of their way to support it. To some extent that's self-fulfilling, but given TiVo's financial problems I also think there's a lack of consumer demand.

Originally Posted by panteragstk

Drm has its place, but that shouldn't prevent legit persons from accessing content they are paying for.

I hate to lead us down yet another argument over DRM, but I don't agree with this statement, at least as it relates to this situation. Whenever you buy media you accept that there are some prerequisites to using it. Sometimes the prerequisites are grounded in physical incapabilities (e.g., a CD player can't play a DVD), sometimes a lack of software (e.g., you need a DVD playing application to play DVDs on a computer), and sometimes they're mostly artificial (e.g., DRM). While I have a visceral reaction against artificial restrictions, when I think about it more I don't see the big deal. You almost always know what the prerequisites are before going in (and when you don't, like the nasty Sony CD root-kits, I think it's pretty clearly wrong). In my book, its roughly the same idea as Microsoft selling multiple versions of the same software with features turned off at different prices points (which some people complain about, but I think is a good thing for consumers), or Intel choosing a lower clock speed for a processor than is physically necessary.

That being said, my biggest problem with DRM is the uncertainty about how long you'll have access to the media. If the company running the DRM server goes down, you could lose access to all your DRMed media. That's something I know about, and I make my purchases of DRMed media accordingly, but I think a lot of people don't realize that. In a way, its sort of like knowing that someday the DVDs will rot, or that I won't be able to find a working VCR for a reasonable price, but with much, much greater uncertainty on the time frame. I don't like it, although my dislike is somewhat tempered by my belief that some companies aren't going to shut on their DRM servers soon enough for me to care (e.g., Apple), and in other cases I know I'm only renting media for a short period of time (e.g., streaming Netflix).

In this particular case I don't think there's a problem with DRM with cable TV and cablecard. The people interesting in creating a DIY system around cablecard know the restrictions, and I don't think people have a reasonable expectation of unrestricted access to TV shows that have aired on cable TV in perpetuity (or a particular desire, for that matter). Sure, there's nothing per se that technically prevents you from doing that now, but, at least in my opinion, I consider cable TV to be more of a renting model than a purchasing model. And if you are technically savvy enough to come up with a way to indefinitely storage large amounts of TV recordings, I think you'd be well aware of any risks there too.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

To Fuzzy's earlier point, the digital SD versions of the same channels were also set to DRM: 0x01 (set) and CCI: 0x02 (copy once), which kinda sucks (not that I would be all that interested in the SD version of the channels). So I'm thinking that SiliconDust isn't gonna be selling many of their HDHR Prime units to SageTV/Brighthouse customers.

My point about SD versions being free wasn't about the SD feeds being marked copy freely - it was about Downscaled outputs being allowed without encryption even if the content is flagged copy never - this, coincidentally, is how you can still use component outputs on the set-top boxes without protection of the content.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Also, There should be a mechanism to downscale flagged content to SD and allow that downscaled content outside of the protected path. All of this is premitted by the CableLabs specs.

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

My point about SD versions being free wasn't about the SD feeds being marked copy freely - it was about Downscaled outputs being allowed without encryption even if the content is flagged copy never - this, coincidentally, is how you can still use component outputs on the set-top boxes without protection of the content.

Is this true? As far as my understanding of the OpenCable specification goes, there seems to be several different things jumbled together here.

First, I thought the notion of a protected path is more a Microsoft/Windows term than a cablecard term. The only thing I know about similar to what you described with downscaled outputs is the "Constrained Image Trigger" for HD Copy Control. If that's flagged then rather than turning off the analog ports completely it should downscale the video to roughly SD-quality.

But, that's a really specific case- video output from host devices. And in that case non-protected digital outputs, like firewire and/or HDMI, are all or nothing- they're either enabled or they're not.

Whether or not downscaled video like you describe is allowed or not might actually be more a function of what type of DRM CableLabs is willing to allow. And given that digital outputs seem to be all-or-nothing, it seems like they'd probably continue that when approving a DRM scheme.

It's possible there's something different in one of the many OpenCable specifications, but I couldn't find it. They're sort of a mess. I certainly didn't see anything in the OCUR specification.

And my understanding of the reason why you can have analog output of copy-never flagged material is because just because something is marked copy-never doesn't mean it has the "Constrained Image Trigger" set. As long as that's not set you can output over analog in full HD.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Is this true? As far as my understanding of the OpenCable specification goes, there seems to be several different things jumbled together here.

First, I thought the notion of a protected path is more a Microsoft/Windows term than a cablecard term. The only thing I know about similar to what you described with downscaled outputs is the "Constrained Image Trigger" for HD Copy Control. If that's flagged then rather than turning off the analog ports completely it should downscale the video to roughly SD-quality.

But, that's a really specific case- video output from host devices. And in that case non-protected digital outputs, like firewire and/or HDMI, are all or nothing- they're either enabled or they're not.

Whether or not downscaled video like you describe is allowed or not might actually be more a function of what type of DRM CableLabs is willing to allow. And given that digital outputs seem to be all-or-nothing, it seems like they'd probably continue that when approving a DRM scheme.

It's possible there's something different in one of the many OpenCable specifications, but I couldn't find it. They're sort of a mess. I certainly didn't see anything in the OCUR specification.

And my understanding of the reason why you can have analog output of copy-never flagged material is because just because something is marked copy-never doesn't mean it has the "Constrained Image Trigger" set. As long as that's not set you can output over analog in full HD.

That is mostly correct. It does specify that for analog outputs (component, and VGA). And yes, it is dependend on the CIT flag. However, if someone (SageTV) was to implement a system that honored the intent of the specification (keeping high-quality, high-value content locked down - while allowing unlocked content, with quality restrictions), and since the specification is federally mandated, there may be leverage there to have it accepted. The changes that prompted this very thread demonstrate that there are some in the FCC that do still feel CableCard can be opened up a bit, and still allow innovation.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by stanger89

This is really my biggest problem with CableCard, nobody (cable companies) wants to support it. The flags can change on a whim, etc, etc.



Right, I don't think they're "hell bent" on keeping them mandatory, I think the "problem" is there's no standard, and the "DIY" market is so infinitesimally small that it's not even a dot on their radar. There's just no incentive to develop a "common" solution when nobody will use it.

Just look at the now dead Dish and DTV PC solutions, both companies entertained the idea, probably let MS spend it's dime developing them, but when it came to release them they didn't even make it to market.



You mean like DVB Conditional Access/Common Interface?

I guess. I'm mainly speaking of how the hdpvr works. With hdmi it "should" be possible to use the control spec of hdmi to control channel changing while getting all audio and video to the source whether it be a tv or an input device like an hdpvr with hdmi. Just a thought.

I hate to lead us down yet another argument over DRM, but I don't agree with this statement, at least as it relates to this situation. Whenever you buy media you accept that there are some prerequisites to using it. Sometimes the prerequisites are grounded in physical incapabilities (e.g., a CD player can't play a DVD), sometimes a lack of software (e.g., you need a DVD playing application to play DVDs on a computer), and sometimes they're mostly artificial (e.g., DRM).

That isn't what I really meant by my statement. This example may explain what I mean. There is talk of the analog hole being turned off disabling component output form stb's. Hasn't happened yet, but think of all the people with older hdtv's that only have component. They can't force you to purchase a new tv just because they are afraid of the diy crowd "stealing" the content. That is the kind of thing that I think drm shouldn't be used for. And since other have mentioned that the diy crowd is so small why then do the service providers and studios try to limit what we are able to do? That may not be what they intend, but it sure seems like it.