CableCard Open to non-Microsoft MediaCenter

[toricred]

I think he's just the most realistic. People here seem to act like CableCard is a magic bullet. Personally I think it's a waste and would be really upset if the cost of Sage went up in order to support it. There are lots of users with Satellite for their source and CableCard is of no value to us. I'm so sick of hearing how it can save the world.

[src666]

No one says it will "save the world", but it would sure make life easier for the, what, 65+% of USA based users who are on cable.

[goatboy22382]

I am really confused by all the people that think cablecard support is a bad thing. For me, and I am guessing for many sage users Cablecard would allow me to access 99.9% of my channels. Everything but showtime. Currently I don't use sage for tv because I only get something like 15 channels in clearQAM. Cablecard support would open this back up for me. I realize comcast could start marking everything copy protected. If that happens I sell my cablecard tuner and go back to tivo.

Not supporting it is like not supporting cleaQAM because you can only get a hand full of channels so why bother.

[SCPRedMage]

Even if Sage has a PlayReady license, it'll still need to be CableLabs certified to support Copy Once/Never shows on CableCARD, which is OBSCENELY expensive.

The new rules will allow non-certified software (like SageTV) to support recording Copy Freely shows on CableCARD, yes, but I think these changes are an attempt to head-off the FCC's "recommendation" that software not need the same certification process as hardware, before it becomes more... binding.

Frankly, if the hardware is guaranteed to only output the recordings with DRM as prescribed by CableLabs' standards, there's no NEED for the software to do anything special. The only reason it has to go through the certification process is because the cable industry refuses to release it's death-grip on the market.

[toricred]

The problem I have with adding support for it is if it causes me to spend more money for Sage. I can gain no benefit from it and a lot of other people can't either. If adding support costs money for those that can't use it then I say don't spend the money. If adding support forces DRM on those of us that don't use CableCard then I'm really upset because that is one of the primary reasons I love Sage.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Sparhawk6

Lol Stranger you are the most pessimistic guy on the board about cablecard support. Debbie Downer!

Only because every single hope we've ever had about getting access to "premium" content has been crushed. Be it DirecTV or Dish Network's "tuners", or the original Cable Card support which was effectively crippled, and only now, years later finally getting to where it should have been originally (and almost too late now that CableCard has been given up on).

Originally Posted by goatboy22382

I am really confused by all the people that think cablecard support is a bad thing.

First off, you realize there are two very different issues here. One is support of "copy freely" content via CableCard tuners, which possibly, perhaps even likely won't require any changes to Sage a all. The other is actually "supporting" CableCard, which would require Sage to implement a DRM system and get themselves certified. I've got no problem with the first, I just think it will be of much less value than most hope. As far as the second, I think it's unlikely, that it's probably to costly (development time+actual cash costs of certification/licensing) to happen.

For me, and I am guessing for many sage users Cablecard would allow me to access 99.9% of my channels. Everything but showtime.

This is what I mean, I think that's incredibly optimistic. History shows us that anything open to computers on cable gets locked down before long to be of little use.

[src666]

The key issue here is whether or not SageTV supports your needs.

If they support your needs without CableCard support, then to be blunt, WTH are you in here arguing? You don't have a dog in this hunt. You can give stump-speeches about hypothetical price increases, but that's not adding anything other than opinion based on conjecture.

Right now, it supports most of my needs, but Comcast is about to change that by removing most ClearQAM in my area. When that happens, Sage stops working for me. ALL of my investment is gone, including 2 HD200's, an MVP, etc.

Sage can fix that by getting certified by CableLabs, which has become much less expensive for software. If they do that soon, they keep a customer. I know I'm not the only one. If, however, Sage doesn't support CC, then I'm going to have to move on to Windows Media Server, and at that point I probably won't be moving back.

As much as I love Sage, I don't hang on to obsolete platforms out of nostalgia or loyalty (as my 6 sold or shelved ReplayTV's demonstrate). And for clarity, I define obsolete as "lacking the features and functionality needed in the current marketplace" - i.e. CableCard support in the market where I live.

I have to go with what actually works. And while Windows Media Server is a compromised solution, it is also a solution that works for 90+% of what I would need.

Again, it's all about whether or not Sage supports your needs. As the cable industry moves away from ClearQAM, then many people will find that it doesn't. And that's a problem that Sage will have to deal with, one way or another.

[barney B.A.]

Of course, you'll have to deal with all the headaches that drm imposes on its users. and while the hdprv isn't the perfect solution, you can get the HD premium channels drm free. and btw cablecard is on its way to becoming obsolete as well

[src666]

Originally Posted by barney B.A.

Of course, you'll have to deal with all the headaches that drm imposes on its users. and while the hdprv isn't the perfect solution, you can get the HD premium channels drm free. and btw cablecard is on its way to becoming obsolete as well

Except HDPVR costs $250 a pop, plus a monthly rental for _each_ box. Something like the Ceton tuner makes a lot of long term sense.

And while everyone keeps saying "CableCard is going away", that's only true if there's something to replace it with, and that's not here yet. It's not even something more than a "we need to do this" proposal - no sample hardware, no firm spec, just a wishful thought.

I'm looking for a solution _now_ for the situation that exists _now_. I'll deal with future standards when they come along. Just like I did when I ditched ReplayTV, or when I bought my ClearQAM tuners, or placed my order for the Ceton card.

Progress is. And it always costs something.

[barney B.A.]

but your solution may not allow you to use extenders or save the recording for extended use. You may be stuck watching your shows on the media server.

[src666]

Originally Posted by barney B.A.

but your solution may not allow you to use extenders or save the recording for extended use. You may be stuck watching your shows on the media server.

Add a couple XBox 360's and I have extenders, for not much more than I paid for my HD200's. Yes, the DRM is a compromise - and as I mentioned above, I recognize that WMS is a compromised solution. As in not perfect. But for me it's better than the alternatives.

And don't forget that HDPVR's are problematic in and of themselves, both in basic functioning and tuning. Not to mention that cable boxes bring their own fun to the party (no auto-power up after power outages, software upgrades, head-end driven resets, etc.). If I ever come up with a use-case that requires an HDPVR, I'll get one. But I haven't yet.

My point is we each need to find the solution that works for us. I've been in the PVR game since ReplayTV was first introduced to the market back in '98, and I've seen everything the market has to offer.

But what's best for me isn't going to be what's best for everyone, and the reverse is true. I just can't understand people acting as if having _more_ options is a bad thing, especially when it comes to expanding the capabilities of the product we already use and enjoy.

[barney B.A.]

Originally Posted by src666

My point is we each need to find the solution that works for us.

But what's best for me isn't going to be what's best for everyone, and the reverse is true. I just can't understand people acting as if having _more_ options is a bad thing, especially when it comes to expanding the capabilities of the product we already use and enjoy.

Well said. I agree that supporting cablecard will give us more options and be a good thing as long as it doesn't require that Sage has to lock down any current capability to get the certification.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by src666

The key issue here is whether or not SageTV supports your needs.

If they support your needs without CableCard support, then to be blunt, WTH are you in here arguing? You don't have a dog in this hunt. You can give stump-speeches about hypothetical price increases, but that's not adding anything other than opinion based on conjecture.

So, we're not allowed to have an opinion? Because we don't agree?

Right now, it supports most of my needs, but Comcast is about to change that by removing most ClearQAM in my area. When that happens, Sage stops working for me. ALL of my investment is gone, including 2 HD200's, an MVP, etc.

It's not gone, there are still solutions, you just don't like them.

Sage can fix that by getting certified by CableLabs, which has become much less expensive for software. If they do that soon, they keep a customer. I know I'm not the only one. If, however, Sage doesn't support CC, then I'm going to have to move on to Windows Media Server, and at that point I probably won't be moving back.

I assume you mean Windows Media Center. Windows Home Server (there is no "Windows Media Server") doesn't support TV recording at all.

As much as I love Sage, I don't hang on to obsolete platforms out of nostalgia or loyalty (as my 6 sold or shelved ReplayTV's demonstrate). And for clarity, I define obsolete as "lacking the features and functionality needed in the current marketplace" - i.e. CableCard support in the market where I live.

"Needed" is a matter of opinion. Which is why we're having this discussion.

Again, it's all about whether or not Sage supports your needs. As the cable industry moves away from ClearQAM, then many people will find that it doesn't. And that's a problem that Sage will have to deal with, one way or another.

Let's be very, very clear, they will find themselves in the same situation that those of us with Satellite have been in for decades. Satellite has never, and likely will never, have a direct tuning solution. That's why a lot of use (those with Satellite) don't have a lot of sympathy for the loss of clear QAM, or nearly as high a hopes for CableCard.

Originally Posted by src666

And don't forget that HDPVR's are problematic in and of themselves, both in basic functioning and tuning. Not to mention that cable boxes bring their own fun to the party (no auto-power up after power outages, software upgrades, head-end driven resets, etc.). If I ever come up with a use-case that requires an HDPVR, I'll get one. But I haven't yet.

Mine's perfect, as good as any tuner I've ever used (more reliable than OTA counting reception variability). Yes it had a hard birth, but it's gotten very well shaken out.

But what's best for me isn't going to be what's best for everyone, and the reverse is true. I just can't understand people acting as if having _more_ options is a bad thing, especially when it comes to expanding the capabilities of the product we already use and enjoy.

I'm all for more options, but the CableCard proponents make it sound effectively trivial for Sage to support it. Like they can just plunk down the licensing certification fees on CableLabs' desk and they'll be able to use CC tuners.

That couldn't be further from the truth. From what I know of how Sage operates, there would likely need significant rework/redesign/extension of Sage's current recording and playback mechanisms to support it. That's the killer IMO, not so much the cash costs to CableLabs and/or Microsoft, but the development effort that would have to be taken from other functionality to get it working. Not to mention any of the nasty side effects that WMC users have to deal with, like stuff getting "accidentally" copy protected that shouldn't be.

On top of that CableCard would be a pretty major feature, and with CC tuners available, and support not being there now in the public (and thus mostly feature complete) V7 beta. I doubt it's coming any time soon.

[doncote0]

You don't have a dog in this hunt.

Good point. You would not go to an NFL team's fan page and say stuff unless you are a fan of that team right?

That is like protesting when a new flavor of ice cream comes out because you are lactose intolerant, hate the new flavor or hate ice cream.

From what I can gather, an easier option is possible:

Allow "copy freely" only. Firmware update on CC devices could allow all copy freely recording to occur without DRM. This is the simplest and easiest solution for all. The FCC even implied that this solution is what they would like to see. Why use DRM if the channel can be recorded under "Fair Use" copyright rules? In other words, if you can copy it with a VCR, DRM is not appropriate.

No play ready bs required for Sage.

Possibility:

Cable companies may respond by marking all channels except locals to prevent that. Lawsuits on "fair use" will follow. In the end, the individual broadcasting companies themselves may be held responsible for marking their programming.

A good question does come to mind though...if more and more the future seems to lean towards DRM, wouldn't it be wise to plan for that? Bandage solutions will work for now, but the future brings more and more DRM.

The FCC could make all of this a moot point by setting the rules, but they seem reluctant to do that. Maybe the Federal Government is worried about being sued by the cable Monopoly.

[doncote0]

I'm all for more options, but the CableCard proponents make it sound effectively trivial for Sage to support it. Like they can just plunk down the licensing certification fees on CableLabs' desk and they'll be able to use CC tuners.

Which is one of my points, if you have customers and you tell them they all have an equal chance to qualify for a mandatory certification, why make it so cost prohibitive? Shouldn't the RIA and the Cable Companies (as well as others that want DRM) be funding this?

DRM and Cable Labs certification and qualification prices should be based on a percentage of profits from the businesses bottom line for that product.

Here poor guy, middle class and rich guy...you can all use safety gear in your job. It costs $100,000, but everyone has the same chance to own it.

That is such a load of crap...

If you make business requirements and prices so only the really big businesses can afford it, that's fair right? Screw the small businesses...it's their fault for being small.

It's not discrimination, it just that a majority of the businesses we don't want to support cannot afford it. Muhahaha!

[doncote0]

while the hdprv isn't the perfect solution, you can get the HD premium channels drm free.

True...for now...

(Remember the macrovision update to VCR's?)

[barney B.A.]

Originally Posted by doncote0

True...for now...

(Remember the macrovision update to VCR's?)

Yes, but the channels that I could tune with my VCR were still recordable. I just couldn't hook up 2 VCRs to copy a copyrighted tape.

[doncote0]

Yes, but the channels that I could tune with my VCR were still recordable. I just couldn't hook up 2 VCRs to copy a copyrighted tape.

I couldn't hook up a VCR to record a DVD, CD movie, Laser Disc, etc. I even heard that some premium channels were "unrecordable" using a VCR.

For those that don't know what a VCR is...you really aren't missing much. (Recycle the shelfware!)

[cat6man]

question: the sigmadesign chipsets contain the DRM needed for playback, as i understand it.

would it be possible for Sage to be able, without complex DRM constraints - or something on the simple side - , to record DRMd material and only permit DRMd playback via an extender where dedicated sigma h/w can handle the DRM?

[barney B.A.]

Originally Posted by doncote0

I couldn't hook up a VCR to record a DVD, CD movie, Laser Disc, etc. I even heard that some premium channels were "unrecordable" using a VCR.

For those that don't know what a VCR is...you really aren't missing much. (Recycle the shelfware!)

They were unrecordable because they were scrambled channels in which case you couldn't see them on screen either. You either needed a cable box or the cable co. had to come out and hook inline filters to make the channels viewable, then charged you accordingly. If you couldn't record from another vcr then why would you be able to record from DVD. laserdisc, etc?