CableCard Open to non-Microsoft MediaCenter

[sleonard]

Like Stanger and others I don't think this will do much for most Sage users. I just want to add that if Sage were to fully support CC in all it's glory it would not have to implement "the full monty" as far as DRM is concerned. All it would have to implement is the decryption half since the stream would already be encrypted by the CC device.

IOW, all it would need to add is the ability to read previously encrypted files and respect the rights of those files. It would not be required to encrypt anything at all and I just don't see any cause for the DRM alarms that some raise. The ability to read DRM is good, only writing DRM is bad.

OTOH, if accepting the ability to decrypt the DRM obligated them to encrypt their other content regardless of source then I would have issues but I don't think that would be the case.

S

[ToxMox]

I wouldn't mind seeing full CC DRM that would work with the extenders only for non-copy freely recordings.

[Sparhawk6]

Although clearly this isn't 100% what we want (i.e. full cablecard support), you must admit that this is a step in the right direction, or a "ray of hope."

I don't know for sure in my neck of the woods (Comcast), but I've heard that only the premium channels, i.e. HBO, Starz, Cinemax, are not marked copy freely. If that's true, I will immediately buy a cable card tuner if it is supported like this in Sage. All I really want is to have a few sports channels available for recording.

Thankfully, we are moving in the right direction. I pray that Sage will gain some momentum here with this.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Brent

Thats correct.

I'd personally still like to see SageTV implement true CableCard support to pick up all channels. Doing so wouldn't "add DRM" to SageTV for other purposes - just for CableCard.

I don't know that it's that simple though. They'd have to license Microsoft WM DRM (I think that's the only one approved right now). They've have to get their implementation certified by at least MS (if not CableLabs as well), including on extenders, and including on other PCs (assuming that's even allowed, which it may not be).

It's hard to tell just how far the "infestation" would have to go. The PC clients I believe would be the big stumbling block. Nobody's done that yet. MS doesn't have to worry but the way they have WM DRM enabled, recordings simply can't be played on other PCs. There must be some special handling for extenders, like the PC decrypting it and repackaging it in a different encryption for the extenders or something.

Originally Posted by Sparhawk6

Although clearly this isn't 100% what we want (i.e. full cablecard support), you must admit that this is a step in the right direction, or a "ray of hope."

That would be nice, but I'm placing my bets on False Hope. We've had rays of hope before, only to have them crushed each time. Firewire, the original CableCard, clear QAM, etc, etc.

I don't know for sure in my neck of the woods (Comcast), but I've heard that only the premium channels, i.e. HBO, Starz, Cinemax, are not marked copy freely. If that's true, I will immediately buy a cable card tuner if it is supported like this in Sage. All I really want is to have a few sports channels available for recording.

The problem is they can turn that off at any second.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by stanger89

The problem is they can turn that off at any second.

That is the major problem. Cable companies ultimately have the final say so and until that changes your new shiny $400 tuner could be come a worthless QAM tuner instantly without notice and there is nothing you can do about it.

I do find it funny that the WMC people think it is huge they can share the tuner with multiple pcs. Still no integrated guide, can't access on recordings on another pc if they are drm. If that isn't settling and getting excited over nothing I don't know what is.

[stanger89]

Just saw this on AVS:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1270142

I think the big "news" there is the old ATI cards won't work any more with some updated encryption, but slid in there is a bit about "turning on" the CCI bits. Which is exactly what we're talking about here. What "turning on" means I don't know, but it illustrates the problem with CableCard on the PC (and CC in general of course).

[doncote0]

Microsoft didn't learn last time with the Anti Trust lawsuit...

Now they are trying again by monopolizing DRM controls...
forcing the consumer back to their product (WMC and WMC extenders)

Sue them Tivo... (or CableLabs who is probably more to blame)

I hate Tivo but someone with money is going to have to tackle this. Dish would be another option.

[stanger89]

:S

What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with MS. Cable Labs developed an "open" specification for 3rd parties to build CableCard compatible products. Tivo, Moxi, and Microsoft+partners have all built compatible products to that specification.

The "problem" is in the PC space, Microsoft is the only entity that has submitted and recieved approval for a DRM system which meets Cable Labs' requirements.

There is nothing, whatsoever preventing SageTV LLC, or anyone else from building a PC-based CableCard solution to compete with Microsoft. Well, nothing but the cost involved in developing it and getting it certified.

The problem isn't Microsoft (in fact, I commend them for jumping through all the hoops to obtain CableCard certification on something that no doubt is a money loser for them). The problem is CableLabs, and beyond that the whole digital content environment these days where everyone wants as much control over it as possible.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I think the big "news" there is the old ATI cards won't work any more with some updated encryption, but slid in there is a bit about "turning on" the CCI bits. Which is exactly what we're talking about here. What "turning on" means I don't know, but it illustrates the problem with CableCard on the PC (and CC in general of course).

Maybe that will happen, but there doesn't seem to be any available information that supports the notion that the CCI flags are going to be set to turn on copy protection. As far as I can tell its just a rumor that started when someone misinterpreted the letter that went out to Verizon FiOS customers before word got out about the Simulcrypt rollout.

I'll be watching CableCard developments closely. I have firewire recording working now, but I think SGraphRecorder is rather buggy, and causes lock-ups if I don't do preemptive reboots every couple days. I'd love to be able to replace the firewire recording box with a HDHR-Prime if it means it would record everything my firewire tuner records. Though, my HD-PVR has been working pretty well ever since I gave up on digital audio. So, I don't know what I'll do. If I'm able to pick up a HDHR-Prime for <$200 (and its supported in sage) I'll probably give it a try and hope for the best.

[SCPRedMage]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Cable Labs developed an "open" specification for 3rd parties to build CableCard compatible products.

I wish there were an elegant way to emphasize just the quotation marks around a word, because calling CableCARD "open" is a joke...

CableCARD only exists because Congress forced the cable companies to open up their networks. To the cable companies, CableCARD is the devil, and they want it to die in a fire. They want to be able to control EVERYTHING you do with "their" content.

The only reason they updated the rules to allow non-certified software to use CableCARD tuners to record Copy Freely programs is because the FCC recently made the "recommendation" that software shouldn't have to get the same certification as hardware; the new rules are an attempt to convince the FCC not to force that on down their throats.

[loomdog32]

Looks like PlayReady would cost Sage $5k startup and $10k per major realease IF they were to allow DRMed DCT content..

I dont see this happening.......

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by loomdog32

I dont see this happening.......

It all depends on the financial backing for Sage. In some cases $15K is a lot of money, in others it's not.

[disco340]

Just read on another thread that SageTV already has a PlayReady License.

http://www.microsoft.com/PlayReady/L...licensees.mspx

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by disco340

Just read on another thread that SageTV already has a PlayReady License.

http://www.microsoft.com/PlayReady/L...licensees.mspx

Wondering how long they have had that and what that means....could get interesting.

[Brent]

Interesting. Although I'm not sure exactly what that means... Hmm

[tmiranda]

It means Sage has paid in the neighborhood of $15,000 to buy the "stuff" needed to legally support playing DRM'ed content.

[darcilicious]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

It means Sage has paid in the neighborhood of $15,000 to buy the "stuff" needed to legally support playing DRM'ed content.

Does this mean that SageTV could implement playback of WMC content that is DRM'd?

[tmiranda]

I read the PlayReady info but I'm certainly not an expert. I think PlayReady supports it but there is no way to tell if Sage will implement the functionality.

You can think of PlayReady as a SDK that lets companies develop applications that can legally record and play DRM'ed content within their own "ecosystem". What each company actually does with PlayReady is up to them.

[stanger89]

It sounded (from the linked page in the other thread) that there are varous versions of the license. Doesn't Sage support playing DRM'd WMA on a PC? I'm thinking that's what their license is for, DRM WMA.

[Sparhawk6]

Originally Posted by stanger89

It sounded (from the linked page in the other thread) that there are varous versions of the license. Doesn't Sage support playing DRM'd WMA on a PC? I'm thinking that's what their license is for, DRM WMA.

Lol Stranger you are the most pessimistic guy on the board about cablecard support. Debbie Downer!