Jumping in building 4 tuner PVR, I'm sure I'll need help!

[mdmint]

Greetings,

After giving up on commerically available DVR options I decided to design and build my own. (My biggest concern as a computer professional veteran was HD failure, which isn't an if but when ) We've been using multiple VCR's for many years giving us the ability to record 3 simultaneous while watching something previously recorded. (two go-video decks plus a single well)

I've already ordered 3 PVR-250's and 1 PVR-350 along with SageTV and Client. Figured design for 4 simutaneous record sessions plus watching one recorded with output from 350. I think it'll work

I'll be building a dedicated PVR with Promise FT SX4 256M Cache controller for RAID5 to control four hotswap caged 250G SATA drives for 750G redundant storage, using my older AMD XP 2100+ and ECS K7S5A sysbrd SIS chipset, 1G 266 DDR SDRAM, 400Wx400W redundant hotwap power supply.
Maybe a bit extreme...

All hardware ordered. Now I discover this forum! Now not sure it'll all work together (350/250 issues I read) Oh sure, ask questions before spending boo-ko0 $$$

But no guts no glory! I figure I have until the Fall line-ups get close to have it debugged and dialed in.

Any known issues with 4 PVR's in one server like will a single remote control work for programming and playback etc.. What about audio recording for the multiple tuners, I hadn't even thought of that as an issue but it might be

[fidget]

I have a 4 PVR system, but it is split across two computers. It is now working great, but it didn't start out that way.

The first problem that I had was mixing a PVR-250 with a PVR-350. Since the PVR-250 had a rev. 16 chip and the PVR-350 had a rev 15, they wouldn't play together (corrupted recordings). The solution was to move the PVR-350 into its own PC (an EPIA-M, mini-ITX computer).

The second problem was with my motherboard. My initial server was a Soyo Dragon Lite (KT600 chipset). I could not get more than two PVR-250s to run together. When I added the third tuner nothing would be recorded. Also, some DVD players had problems with the DVDs that I created. The solution was to change to an Intel 865G chipset and now I have three PVR-250s (rev -16) and no problems with the playback.

The last problem that I have is with noise. I have my server in another room, so I don't have to listen to its fans, but I got the 1 GHz EPIA-M motherboard and the fans on the CPU and power supply are rather loud, especially since it is next to my TV (in the line of hearing). I will probably replace the motherboard with a fanless (600 MHz) version and DC power supply. I run SageTV Client and SageTV Recorder on this computer so that I can drive the TV and use the PVR-350's encoder. I have had very few problems with the PVR-350 in this configuration.

[carlgar]

The only issue with 4 PVR's in one server is that one of them is the 350. Since you purchased the client, you probably have a second system. If so, worst case you will have to move the 350 into the client system. If you want to record using the 350 in the client you will also need to purchase the SageRecorder to have a network encoder from the 350.
The audio should not be any problem it is encoded with the video by the cards.

[mdmint]

Thanks for the input(s). While yes I'll have other PCs my goal is to build a single dedicaded self contained PVR so moving the 350 isn't an option. I don't plan on "playing" with other software or uses on it. If I want to archive to DVD etc. I'll xfer the data over the home network to my main PC. This has got to be stable and up all the time or I'm dead meat WAF wise! (It'll also be on a decent sized battery back yet to be determined, even my VCR's are on a small 650VA 360W battery backup!)

So I guess worst case scenario will be returning it for another 250 and then deciding on another way to output to TV (Toshiba 55" rear projection Cinema Series).

Any suggestions on "best" output solutions?

Oh, noise factor anticipated. I work in Server rooms all the time for a living! It'll be in a separate room using IR repeater for the remote control. (And some looooong high quality cables to feed output - ouch$.)

[berfsicle]

Originally posted by mdmint
Thanks for the input(s). While yes I'll have other PCs my goal is to build a single dedicaded self contained PVR so moving the 350 isn't an option. I don't plan on "playing" with other software or uses on it. If I want to archive to DVD etc. I'll xfer the data over the home network to my main PC. This has got to be stable and up all the time or I'm dead meat WAF wise! (It'll also be on a decent sized battery back yet to be determined, even my VCR's are on a small 650VA 360W battery backup!)

So I guess worst case scenario will be returning it for another 250 and then deciding on another way to output to TV (Toshiba 55" rear projection Cinema Series).

Any suggestions on "best" output solutions?

Oh, noise factor anticipated. I work in Server rooms all the time for a living! It'll be in a separate room using IR repeater for the remote control. (And some looooong high quality cables to feed output - ouch$.)

wow, battery-backed vcrs...i like you

any suggestion for a battery backup solution that will keep the pc, tv, and 4 satellite receivers up and running for at least 30 min?

[insomniac]

freak! :P

[insomniac]

I hear nothing but good about Xcards, but I cant recal if they work with sage these days... Anyone?

I.

[ToxMox]

I use the Cyberpower 1500AVR: http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/1500avr.htm
I have my 27in TV, Sage Server, 2 TiVos, DVD Changer, VCR, Cable Modem, Cordless phone, 2-pvrusb2s, Wireless router, 2 cable boxes, Xbox, Gamecube, Denon AVR3803 receiver, Vonage motorola device, and a CD Changer all hooked up to it.
Mind you I don't usually have the Xbox, Gamecube, and CD Changer on.
So with all that hooked up I am at about 30-35% of the load of the UPS.
Specs on the unit say runtimes vary from 65-135 minutes depending on how much stuff is hooked up to it. My power hasn't been off long enough to see it run dry.

Originally posted by berfsicle
wow, battery-backed vcrs...i like you

any suggestion for a battery backup solution that will keep the pc, tv, and 4 satellite receivers up and running for at least 30 min?

[Opus4]

Originally posted by insomniac
I hear nothing but good about Xcards, but I cant recal if they work with sage these days... Anyone?

My Xcard works perfectly well, with 2 limitations in SageTV:[list=1][*]No UI is displayed through the Xcard. I view the UI on a monitor next to the TV; this is OK with me for now, since I would have the monitor there anyway.
[*]DVD playback is not possible through SageTV on it. I use the DVD player that comes with the card, but other software is available, like JovePlayer.[/list=1]
Picture quality is excellent.

- Andy

[berfsicle]

Originally posted by ToxMox
I use the Cyberpower 1500AVR: http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/1500avr.htm
I have my 27in TV, Sage Server, 2 TiVos, DVD Changer, VCR, Cable Modem, Cordless phone, 2-pvrusb2s, Wireless router, 2 cable boxes, Xbox, Gamecube, Denon AVR3803 receiver, Vonage motorola device, and a CD Changer all hooked up to it.
Mind you I don't usually have the Xbox, Gamecube, and CD Changer on.
So with all that hooked up I am at about 30-35% of the load of the UPS.
Specs on the unit say runtimes vary from 65-135 minutes depending on how much stuff is hooked up to it. My power hasn't been off long enough to see it run dry.

nice, thanks

[jominor]

Originally posted by mdmint
Greetings,

After giving up on commerically available DVR options I decided to design and build my own. (My biggest concern as a computer professional veteran was HD failure, which isn't an if but when ) We've been using multiple VCR's for many years giving us the ability to record 3 simultaneous while watching something previously recorded. (two go-video decks plus a single well)

Watch out for drive failure. I purchased a while ago 4 200g Maxtors when a 200g WD drive failed. One of those didn't work out of the box.

Now, about 7 months later, I've had another WD and Maxtor fail. Strangely enough, my older drives(20,30,60 gigs) are still cranking away.

Basically, I've lost 4 200g drives in less than a year. I'm not the only one either. I had friends who have all lost drives.

I just don't think drives are as reliable as they used to be. Heck, look at that IBM fiasco a couple of years ago. And it doesn't help that the warranties are much shorter.

Just have a couple of back-ups handy.

[stanger89]

mdmint,

I would seriously consider doing something like fidget, build your monster PVR with the stuff you mentioned but put it in a different room and use a client. For one, you probably won't want that noisy computer (I've been to RAID-5, 4 HDDs are quite loud not to mention the fans) next to the TV. Put the 250's in the server and build a small/quiet client for next to the TV with the 350.

I do have a question for you, is that Tosh HD ready? If so, what inputs does it have. IMO, the 350 is a poor choice to match with an HDTV. It's great for SDTVs, but the drawbacks (no Windows desktop, DVDs, only MPEG output) just aren't worth it on an HDTV, especially considering you can scale everything to 1080i with the PC.

[mdmint]

Originally posted by stanger89
mdmint,

I would seriously consider doing something like fidget, build your monster PVR with the stuff you mentioned but put it in a different room and use a client. For one, you probably won't want that noisy computer (I've been to RAID-5, 4 HDDs are quite loud not to mention the fans) next to the TV. Put the 250's in the server and build a small/quiet client for next to the TV with the 350.

I do have a question for you, is that Tosh HD ready? If so, what inputs does it have. IMO, the 350 is a poor choice to match with an HDTV. It's great for SDTVs, but the drawbacks (no Windows desktop, DVDs, only MPEG output) just aren't worth it on an HDTV, especially considering you can scale everything to 1080i with the PC.

Agreed, it'll be a noisy beast! I already plan on having it in another room. Drive failure wise is exactly why I'm going Raid5, one fails it's still up. And hotswap drive cages so I won't even need to down it to replace failed HD. I don't really want to have a second PC in the entertainment room though for a couple reasons. Mainly I'd have to build another expensive redundant type system or it'd be a major weak leak. (just the 400x400 redundant power supply was $277.25!) I planned on running long heavily shielded cables under the house from computer room. This may or may not be a viable quality picture option though a custom AV installer/designer I talked to said such cables available. Me thinks I need to talked to a couple more for further input/opinions. Plus here for the voice of experience of course!

Yes the Toshiba 55HX70 is HD ready with YRB inputs. Right now I'm using no HD source though. Would analog cable input to PVR250/SageTV recorded be output better display YRB vs SVideo? If so, what would you suggest as an output card? Note, gaming is not in the equation, this is to be a dedicated PVR. Cost really isn't an issue either, just want the best possible output AND WAF friendly! I just assumed (we all know where that'll get me ) a PVR 350 hardware decoding matched with PVR 250's would be the cleanest. Silly me, didn't know the 350 and 250 "somewhat" incompatible plus didn't realize the 350's output limitations. My bad for not researching enough before ordering.

[stanger89]

For YPbPr output, you've basically got three choices, any video card with a transcoder (although this will be expensive and tricky requiring powerstrip and custom resolutions), a Radeon with the Component Dongle (something like 9600XT), or a Leadtek A380 Ultra TDH MyVIVO (that's a Geforce FX 5950).

I'd probably recommend the 9600, I'm becoming increasingly frustrated by my Radeon 9500 but it has severed me well and the A380 is just overkill, too expensive to justify it. One more advantage of going with a video card and HD output over the 350 is that you can play all you DVDs scaled to 1080i, which will beat most average DVD players, and give more highend ones at least a run for their money, and all in one box.

If cost truely isn't an issue, I'd still build a quiet client machine, there are definite advantages to having a separate client. You can mess with playback settings, tweak things, etc, and if you were to crash it, the main PVR would keep happily chugging along. Plus it would make cabling much easier. You could build a nice client for aroung $1000 probably, I could see having a custom installer installing high grade cable (at least 50' I'm guessing) easily run close to that, with the client you'd just have $20 in Cat 5 cable.

One more thing, keep in mind that striving for 100% uptime is probably overkill, especially on a client, even Tivos don't do that. While HDD failures occur they aren't common, HDD is more reliable than VHS tape probably. A modest system, with carefully chosen components should give you 99% uptime easy.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand where you're coming from (the overkill perspective), my grand scheme consists of a 4+TB server to hold all my media and clients at each TV, but a dose of reality from time to time is always a good thing.

[mdmint]

Thanks for great input Stranger! You've given me some good food for thought. Especially the high end cabling versus separate client machine. And if the client machine wasn't running a PVR, just pushing playback, I wouldn't be as concerned about redundant power supply. (my reason for that was if especially like on vacation and one ps failed recording would continue, same for RAID5 HD config) For client I'd simply use mirrored pair smaller HDs so wouldn't have to worry about reinstall reconfig software if failed. If ps failed just couldn't playback until I replaced it and I keep a spare standard 450 ATX ps on hand. (plenty good for either my main or Debi's system now) Reality could build it for less than a Grand me thinks. And wouldn't have to have remote controller repeater either I believe. Just have to find the "right" looking slimline case to go in the AV component stack!

Question, can the client fully control the server for record programming or is the client only good for playback?

I have an older ATI Radeon AIW 32M (7200 series) in my system so it doesn't support HD output. I just use it for occasional TV in a window while on main computer. (on laptop in the garage at the moment, I smoke but don't smoke in the house) Gotta love 108Mbps wireless BTW! Though I won't use wireless for the PVR setup, hangs occasionally requiring stopping and starting the NIC now and then. Don't know why. Happens on both my laptop and Debi's system. (D-Link 100%) My main sys 100 hardwired, will go same for PVRs. Also one pair of stupid wireless phones sometimes grab my wireless network channel which of course knocks it out. Haven't figured out how to keep them off channel 6, they just randomly grab a channel. If it's a conflict hit when you use the phone have to hit the channel scan on the phone. My older 900Mhz dual line phone still my favorite.

Since I started working on the multiple VCR replacement PVR concept I decided to play with the AIW a bit. I previously played with it a bit for recording TV but never bothered wiring for output to TV. And never really apprecated watching "live" time shifted TV concept until playing with it earlier today. Just like pre-recorded except you don't have to wait for it to record the whole show. I know, DUH, ya'll know that!

So it seems the solution of both PVR250 PVR350 in same unit dilema and video output is one and the same. Send the 350 back when I get it, use 4 250s for recording, and a separate client unit for playback only with HD output likely ATI series as you suggest.

BTW, going for 4TB storage? And I thought my 750GB might seem excessive!

Thanks again for all the great input ya'll!

[kny3twalker]

You should look into 5.8 Ghz phones
and keep your 350 and put it in the client
and use sagerecorder as a network recorder
it is the only thing that supports OSD of Sage other than a video card out and quality is said to be not as good
and well then you will not need a monitor
make sure to read about some of the mobo chipset issues though first

[stanger89]

kny3twalker,
He's got an HDTV, the 350 won't do him a lot of good. The problems with TV outs on video cards don't exist when you are outputting 480p+. I run my system without a monitor, 1280x1024i or 1776x1000i depending on the TV. Plus I'm not limited to MPEG only output, I can surf the net (not necessarily easy to read), watch DVDs, anything.

mdmint,
I've got my Sage setup running in an Ahanix D.Vine 4, it's got a spot for a VFD/LCD, hidden drive bays, looks just like a component, had one of my friends over the other day to see my new case and he asked where it was, I had to point it out to him (this was on my desk not in my rack even). FWIW newegg has a refurbished version, which is how I got mine (they are kind of expensive). Another option would be an Antec Overture, but that doesn't use a standard ATX PS.

Couple more recommendations if you're interested. First I'd put a Seasonic Super Tornado (dumbest name ever) powersupply in it, they are one of the quietest PSs available. Second I'd put a 2.5" notebook HDD in it. You don't need a lot of storage and the 2.5" are supposedly nice and quiet. And third, I wouldn't bother with RAID-1, your config won't be changing much, just get everything installed and make an image, you can restore an image in about 10min and it will protect you against more than just drive failure (like user error), plus it would eliminate that extra HDD as a noise source.

As for 4TB being overkill, I know, but I plan on storing all my DVDs 'online' for a VOD kind of setup, and I need about 1TB for what I have now.

Good luck.

[jmeeks]

Question, can the client fully control the server for record programming or is the client only good for playback?

Yes, the client fully supports the record programming to the server.

I just put in an ATI 9800 PRO. ($200 CircuitCity) and I couldn't believe how much better the picture was over my old ATI8500 AIW. The wife and kids thought I cleaned the monitor!

[mdmint]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stanger89
mdmint,
I've got my Sage setup running in an Ahanix D.Vine 4, it's got a spot for a VFD/LCD, hidden drive bays, looks just like a component, had one of my friends over the other day to see my new case and he asked where it was, I had to point it out to him (this was on my desk not in my rack even). FWIW newegg has a refurbished version, which is how I got mine (they are kind of expensive). Another option would be an Antec Overture, but that doesn't use a standard ATX PS.

Couple more recommendations if you're interested. First I'd put a Seasonic Super Tornado (dumbest name ever) powersupply in it, they are one of the quietest PSs available. Second I'd put a 2.5" notebook HDD in it. You don't need a lot of storage and the 2.5" are supposedly nice and quiet. And third, I wouldn't bother with RAID-1, your config won't be changing much, just get everything installed and make an image, you can restore an image in about 10min and it will protect you against more than just drive failure (like user error), plus it would eliminate that extra HDD as a noise source.

Thanks on the case suggestion, after looking at EVERY case Newegg had went back to it and already on order! And thanks for the laptop HD idea too. Great idea for lower noise and heat. I'll agree on the sensibility of not needing Raid1 too and just Ghost it after it's all setup.

Parts already starting to show up!

[sudipto]

mdmint: I have got 4 tuners in my Sage server ... all tuners in one box. I got one retail 250, one 250MCE (Amity), one 250OEM (Gateway) and one Roslyn Blackbird.

For case, I use the Antec Overture. The best feature of this case is the positioning of the hard disk cage, which is on the back (where the power supply usually is) but slightly on the inside ... AND a huge fan sits right behind the hard disks blowing cold air on it all the time. About a year so far, and no hard disk failure. I have two 200GB drives in this machine and both run at around 35-38 degree celcius and the machine is on 24x7

Let me know if you have any specific question about my setup. I admit that I haven't read this thread in detail, so there might be some overlap of information