Does my upgrade plan sound right?

[budgie]

Hi all,

I'm planning on building my second Sage system from scratch. The first one was five years ago and had a pretty steep learning curve. Between what I've forgotten since then and all the new stuff I have to take into account (for example, this is my first foray into HD TV), I'm hoping to get some feedback to make sure my plan is feasible before I start buying things.

Current setup: old-school CRT TV with two digital cable (Comcast) boxes running off a splitter, plugged into 2 Hauppauge cards in an HP PC running Windows XP Pro. Each cable box has a UIRT and I'm using Girder with a Firefly remote. Don't even remember the version of Sage, probably 2.x.

Goal: Have basically the same setup, with updated hardware and Sage.

Plan: Purchase new HD TV and PC (at least 3GHz). Get the Hauppauge 2250, which I understand is a dual-tuner and you can get the package that comes with two UIRTs. Get a PCI video card that has an HDMI output (and preferably supports DXVA). I've also been advised that all HDMI components should be at version 1.4. On the new PC, install the hardware, plug in the cable boxes and TV, install Girder, copy over the Girder and UIRT config files from my existing installation (I'm a little fuzzy on this, but I seem to recall there are text files that I can drag-and-drop so I don't have to manually reconfigure this stuff, yes?). Install and configure the latest Sage. Continue to use the Firefly remote.


Questions:
1. We only have room for a 36" TV at most. Is my understanding correct that at this size, there is no major advantage or quality difference with regards to getting LCD vs. plasma and 720 vs. 1080?
2. Can I still use a splitter for two cable boxes if they're both showing/recording HD content at the same time, or will it likely be unable to handle the amount of data? (Pardon me if my ignorance is showing.)
3. Are there any gotchas when shifting between recording HD content and standard content, or is it seamless?
4. On my current setup, I have black borders around the edge of the screen. I don't recall what the cause is, but back when I built the system, I read that it was a common issue and there wasn't anything I could do about it. Is this still a common issue that I might expect to see in my proposed new setup, or has this been resolved with newer versions of Sage and/or newer TVs?
5. Anything I'm missing?

If you're still reading ... thanks!!

Ron

[SWKerr]

Originally Posted by budgie

1. We only have room for a 36" TV at most. Is my understanding correct that at this size, there is no major advantage or quality difference with regards to getting LCD vs. plasma and 720 vs. 1080?

Plasmas start at 42" but in looking recently it has the best picture in the price segment. LED-LCD has the best picture quality on the LCD side but they are pricey. LCD looks like an easy decision.

At 42" I can't tell the difference between 1080 and 720 for TV playback. I can tell on my new 50" so I would say the line is somewhere in there. I would note that only applies to TV. I keep the 42" at 1080 because the better resolution does help when I surf the web from the couch. If it will be TV only then I would say 720 is fine.

Not sure how you decided on 36" but screen size is a diagonal measurement and the footprint of the actual set varies wildly from model to model. If you just went to Wal-mart and measured a few I would look around a little more. There are some sets that are almost all screen. They are also thin and can be mounted on a wall if your room layout would support it.

Originally Posted by budgie

Can I still use a splitter for two cable boxes if they're both showing/recording HD content at the same time, or will it likely be unable to handle the amount of data? (Pardon me if my ignorance is showing.)

The cable will have encrypted and unencrypted signal. The only thing you can tune with any tuner card directly from the cable are the Unencrypted QAM channels which are usually just the local Networks, ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox etc. The cable company will probably leave a few non HD stations unencrypted as well and you will get those also.The Hauppauge 2250 is probably a good fit if you have cable. You can split the coax to feed the 2250 but you will only get two at a time recording of Network stations for the most part.

If you want to get HD from the new cable box (you will probably need to upgrade) you will need an HD-PVR. It is the only device that will capture HD from a SAT\Cable box at this time. (Aver is about to release one soon but it may be awhile before it is supported by Sage) You will need to run the Component cables (Comes with the HD-PVR) from the Cable box to the HD-PVR. The HD-PVR comes with a IR blaster that will change the channel on the box when needed. YOu can get a good 4-way splitter that will feed the 2250 and the cable box.

With two at a time recording of locals and one HD-PVR you may be fine depending on you viewing habits. Many cable shows air several times a day or week and Sage will record them at night if necessary. You will have less conflicts then you would think.

If you need to add a second HD-PVR you will need to get a USB-UIRT since the Hauppauge does not support more than one IR blaster per PC.

Another option to adding another HD-PVR is to run the SVideo output from the Cable box to the 2250. It also comes with a IR Blaster (most packages). The signal will still be analog but if the source is HD then it will still look pretty good from my experience. (Not HD good but DVD good.)
** I think you can do 3 at a time 2xHD 1xAnalog but I am not sure since I have not set it up that way before.

Complicated. I know.

Originally Posted by budgie

Are there any gotchas when shifting between recording HD content and standard content, or is it seamless?

Not really, once the setup is done then you are good. Codec setup can be an issue but it is manageable. You will need a h.264 codec but it will come with the HD-PVR. Going to Window 7 will make good playback much easier.

Originally Posted by budgie

On my current setup, I have black borders around the edge of the screen. I don't recall what the cause is, but back when I built the system, I read that it was a common issue and there wasn't anything I could do about it. Is this still a common issue that I might expect to see in my proposed new setup, or has this been resolved with newer versions of Sage and/or newer TVs?

You will need a decent Video card with HDMI output. Depending on you set you may need to adjust the video for Ocverscan or Underscan but there is a adjustment for this in the Video Card software. It should go Edge to edge.

Originally Posted by budgie

Anything I'm missing?

I would start with getting the new HDTV and the Hauppauge 2250. Get a good 4-way splitter and run coax to the exiting cable boxes and the 2250. Upgrade Sage to current version and set it up with HD locals from the 2250 and Analog cable from your current cards. See the difference HD makes and then decide to upgrade the other components if you can no longer stand watching Analog. (You Will)

How old is the current PC? AGP or PCIe slot? If AGP upgrade the PC.
The ATI 4350 is only $35 and if only using 720p resolution it will be more than adequate for HD. If you are going to 1080 than maybe something a little better ATI 5450\5570.

Hulu, Youtube, and Netflix stream HD over the internet. Netflix is a great deal at $10 a moth for one DVD at a time and unlimited Internet content. The Netfix content is limited but decent.

HD uses a lot more disk space. Get a 1.5TB drive.

The SageTV Extender at $180 is a good option for playback if you do not care a lot about Internet TV sites. (Work arounds for much internet content as well ) Still need a PC for recording. I do not use an Extender but would consider it for any TV except for my main set because of the Internet content.

List specs of current PC for comments on HD compatibility.

[heatvent]

I have a 50" plasma. It's a power pig so I would go with LCD if I was buying today. It's 720p and at 10ft+ you can't tell its not 1280. Closer I think it's distinguishable. Not sure of the same range for a 36" but conceivable closer.

[davephan]

Wow! Still running version 2.x after all these years, and haven't upgraded? I started at version 1.4, and have been upgrading over the years.

You can control at least three set top boxes with one USB-UIRT. If the set top boxes use different IR codes, you can run more than 3 boxes with one USB-UIRT.

What do you plan to do with the HVR-2250? OTA Digital, analog cable, or clear QAM cable? I've been using my HVR-2250 for Comcast analog cable. In a couple weeks, analog cable is going away in my area, except for locals and a few other channels, maybe this will also happen in your area. I setup two Comcast DTA boxes which connect to the cable TV coax and output channel 3 or 4. I run the outputs of both DTAs, one on channel 3, the other on channel 4 into a signal combiner (a splitter in reverse doesn't work, it cancels both signals), the output of the signal combiner goes into the single HVR-2250 RF connector. One problem with the HVR-2250 it has only one RF connector. You have to use both turners for analog, OTA digital, or clearQAM.
The other choice is a HDHomerun. You can use one tuner for OTA digital and other for clearQAM. Analog isn't an option with the HDHomerun though.

If there isn't much clearQAM on your cable system, you'll probably have to get a HD-PVR for HD.

If you haven't already selected a system board, you might look for one with a lot of SATA connectors and built-in RAID. I alot of USB connectors and dual 1 gig nics are nice too.

You'll have to decide on the operating system too. WHS cannot be imaged, so it can have painful time-consuming recoveries with lengthy system outages if something goes wrong. Windows XP and 7 both can be backed up with imaging, and recovered in less than 30 minutes. Windows 7 isn't officially supported yet.

It will take awhile to get everything setup and configured with your new system. I also used the 3 gig benchmark goal for my last dual core system and my current quad system. I'm on my forth SageTV system now, so I've been through that process a few times.

Dave

[SWKerr]

Good HDTV buying guide:
http://www.digitaltrends.com/how-to/...uying-an-hdtv/

Useful Chart on where resolution become relevant.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-th...ght-size-tv/2/

Also consider a surround sound system. TV sound is always weak. Even a cheap surround sound system will make a big difference.

[budgie]

First off, thank you all for your responses. The main reason I'm still running 2.x is because it's been working just fine and I've dreaded opening the can of worms of doing this whole thing again! I don't know that I'd even bother if it wasn't for the kind folks pointing me in the right direction on here.

So if I'm really only interested in being able to record SD and HD from two cable boxes at the same time (and not have to worry about encryption), should I simply skip the 2250 and instead buy two HD-PVR units (one for each box), effectively using them as "capture cards?" In which case, the setup would be this:

-- Two cable boxes with one HD-PVR each
-- A USB-UIRT (or two) coming out of the Sage PC (and still using Girder and the Firefly remote) to change the channel on the PVRs, which in turn would change the channel on their respective cable boxes
-- The PVRs are connected to the PC via USB only

If this scenario is correct, and I am using Sage/Girder/etc. to control the PVRs, is it also correct that the audio and video outputs on the PVRs would be unused, because everything would be spooling onto the PC via USB (again, essentially making the PVRs boxes function the same way my capture cards do now)?

Thanks!!

[sic0048]

Originally Posted by budgie

So if I'm really only interested in being able to record SD and HD from two cable boxes at the same time (and not have to worry about encryption), should I simply skip the 2250 and instead buy two HD-PVR units (one for each box), effectively using them as "capture cards?" In which case, the setup would be this:

-- Two cable boxes with one HD-PVR each
-- A USB-UIRT (or two) coming out of the Sage PC (and still using Girder and the Firefly remote) to change the channel on the PVRs, which in turn would change the channel on their respective cable boxes
-- The PVRs are connected to the PC via USB only

If this scenario is correct, and I am using Sage/Girder/etc. to control the PVRs, is it also correct that the audio and video outputs on the PVRs would be unused, because everything would be spooling onto the PC via USB (again, essentially making the PVRs boxes function the same way my capture cards do now)?

Thanks!!

I'll comment on both parts of the question.

First, concerning getting two HD-PVRs in lue of the 2250. Yes, that is the only way to ensure that you can record every channel from your STB. That beings said, many cable companies still output their local channels in HD quality in ClearQAM. QAM is the format that cable broadcasters use and ClearQAM means the signal is not being encrypted. If this is true in your area, then you can attach the coaxial cable right into a QAM tuner and it will be able to record any/all of your ClearQAM stations. It does this without having to use a STB. It basically works like your current system.

I'd take a look at your recording habits. For many people, they benefit from having a QAM tuner in their system (either a 2250 or a HDHomeRun, etc) to record several local stations at one time without tying up the HD-PVR. Most shows on ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, etc are only showed 1 time during the regular season, if you miss it, you are screwed.

On the other hand, most of the other cable stations (Discovery, FX, SpikeTV, etc, etc, etc) will broadcast a show multiple times over a period of time and therefore you have a number of chances to record the show.

Therefore, a lot of people like getting a dual QAM tuner in addition to a HD-PVR (or two). This allows the QAM tuner to record all the 1 time network shows and the HD-PVR to record everything else.

I do exactly this myself. I have a HDHomeRun which can record 2 ClearQAM network shows at 1 time. This covers everything on the major networks. I have just 1 HD-PVR which records all other stations. I rarely miss something because every cable show is repeated about 100 times that even though I only have 1 HD-PVR recordings lots of shows, Sage is smart enough to record them in the most efficient manner.

So long story short, I would look at a QAM tuner in addition to a HD-PVR. You might find that having one of each is more flexible than having two HD-PVRs and having to have 2 STBs.

Second question - regarding the HD-PVR hookups. You can simply have the STB outputs attached to the HD-PVRs inputs and not have anything hooked up to the HD-PVR's outputs. This is probably commonly done. However, you can have the HD-PVR outputs attached to a screen so you can watch the output of the STB (through the HD-PVR) without having to watch it through the SageTV system. However, the potential problem with this method is if the viewer decides to change the STB channel to watch something else. If SageTV is recording something, that recording will show the newly selected show instead of the one desired. That is why most people do not use the "llop through" method.

[budgie]

Hey folks,

Thanks again for all the help -- I've been doing research and changing my plan based on your suggestions. There's just no way I could get through this without you fine people.

My new plan is to get a Windows 7 (64-bit) PC and two HD PVRs and to build up the new platform with our old CRT TV (using our existing system in the meantime, and then cutting over once the new one is completed) and then worry about getting the new LCD TV last. With that in mind, here's a new round of questions:

-- Can anyone recommend an appropriate PCI-e x16 video card that is supported on 64-bit Windows 7 and that has an S-video port? This will make things easier during the transition while we still have the old TV. (Naturally, it would be preferable if the card also had HDMI for later, but I'm having sufficient trouble just finding one with S-video that I understand I may need to buy an "interim" card.)

-- Am I correct in understanding that I will need to allot four USB ports to accommodate two HD PVRs (one port each for the data coming in from them, and one port each for the UIRTs controlling them)?

-- Is it still always advisable to get a separate sound card, or does the quality of onboard sound sometimes negate the need? (I'm assuming the former.)

At least my questions seem to be getting simpler!

Thanks,
Ron

[SWKerr]

There are not many Video Cards that do both S-Video and HDMI. I use a VGA converter box for my older analog sets. $27 (1024x768 screen)
http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

With the above box you can use the On-board graphics on you new motherboard. Just make sure it has both VGA and HDMI out (most will). I would recommend the ATI 785G series board paired with a Athlon II X4 or X3. You can always add a video card later.

The HD-PVR can be flaky about the USB connection. I would go ahead and get a external USB card for it. They are cheap and should make the HD-PVR more stable. Plug the USB-UIRT into the USB ports on the motherboard. (Yes you need 4)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16815104216

I believe it is possible to use one USB-UIRT to control both cable boxes. You may want to check out the following post. I have a USB-UIRT but have not tried this. http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...ight=uirt+zone


On-board Audio is usually fine. If you have an expensive 7.1 surround sound system you may think different but even then on-board is still probably ok.

[budgie]

Awesome. I believe I'm ready to start purchasing. It looks like if I get this:

http://www.microcenter.com/single_pr...uct_id=0325401

... I don't have to worry about getting/upgrading video or sound, and have the added bonus of onboard wireless networking. Is 512MB sufficient for the video card (or, if it needs the additional allocation from system RAM, is there a performance hit)?

Assuming my selection of the HPE-110f gets your thumbs-up, I'll get that, the USB card and VGA -> S-video converter, and the two HD PVRs, plus an additional 1TB drive. Software-wise, I'll get the latest versions of Sage and Girder. Am I forgetting anything?

One more question -- along with several other concepts, the HDCP thing is new to me. Am I correct in understanding that HDCP will not be an issue because the signal will be transmitted from the STB to the HD PVR via component cables? If that is correct, am I technically losing a bit of quality for this benefit? And if it is incorrect, is HDCP going to cause issues when trying to record certain programs?

Thanks,
Ron

[Clift]

That system comes with an ATI Radeon HD 4350. That card has TV out:
Integrated AMD Xilleon™ HDTV encoder

* Provides high quality analog TV output (component/S-video/composite)
* Supports SDTV and HDTV resolutions
* Underscan and overscan compensation

So you can actually just use a vga to composite cabel like this one:
http://www.amazon.com/EFORCITY-VGA-S.../dp/B000P3UB24

[davephan]

Originally Posted by budgie

The main reason I'm still running 2.x is because it's been working just fine and I've dreaded opening the can of worms of doing this whole thing again!

You migtht think about including disk imaging with your next SageTV computer build. When you have an image, there's no need to fear upgrades. If the upgrade fails, you can easily recover to before the upgrade. The image also protects you from other C drive failures (both hardware and software) and makes it easier to isolate problems.

Dave

[SWKerr]

ATI Radeon HD 4350 with 512MB should be fine. If Clift is right the cord should be a cleaner solution. I wonder what other cards it would work with and at what resolution. I might try it myself for under $5 shipped it is certainly worth the risk.

Assuming my selection of the HPE-110f gets your thumbs-up, I'll get that, the USB card and VGA -> S-video converter, and the two HD PVRs, plus an additional 1TB drive. Software-wise, I'll get the latest versions of Sage and Girder. Am I forgetting anything?

The machine is nice and is probably a pretty fair deal. I could build it over at newegg for about $820. What I would tell you is that it is probably overkill for your purposes. 8GB of Ram is $100 right now and you really don't need more than 4GB. The CPU is also probably more than you need.

Going to HP.com and doing a cutom build might be better. A similar spec p6350z with a 500GB drive and a Athlon X4 630 and only 4GB RAM will only run you $570. I doubt you would notice the difference in performance. For the $190 saving I would run over to newegg and get a 2TB green hard drive ($140). I think the built in 785G graphics would work but you can add a a ATI 5450 Video Card for $40 later. You can also get a BluRay redier for $60. Wireless N Card $25.

I would consider EventGhost (Free) or LM Remote over Girder. I have used all three and now am recommending LM Remote ($20 for donater version)

One more question -- along with several other concepts, the HDCP thing is new to me. Am I correct in understanding that HDCP will not be an issue because the signal will be transmitted from the STB to the HD PVR via component cables? If that is correct, am I technically losing a bit of quality for this benefit? And if it is incorrect, is HDCP going to cause issues when trying to record certain programs?

Any new machine or video card with HDMI out will be HDCP compliant. It will not be an issue. The only thing you have to worry about is making sure the Cable box has the correct outputs. The HD-PVR is all analog and not subject to HDCP. Once captured HDCP is not an issue. The output from the HD-PVR will be slightly softer than a OTA signal or directly from the box but it is really hard to tell the difference.

I learned about HDCP with my first BluRay drive. The video card was not HDCP compliant and would not play the BluRay directly. The $50 AnyDVD software would allow me to rip or play the disk cheaper than a new HDCP video card. So the RIAA encouraged me to learn about how to rip legally purchased BluRays.

[budgie]

Clift -- thanks for the nice catch. I'll give the cable a shot, although it's too bad all the ones I'm finding online are so short.

Dave -- yeah, I meant actually rebuilding from scratch with all new hardware (which it's probably time to do anyway). I did image my current system back when I first built it, and actually did have to use the image (successfully!) when it blew up at one point early on. I ended up doing it again a little over a year ago to upgrade the main drive. My plan is to build the system with OS and application partitions, and then take an image and slap it right on the second drive I'll be buying. Then I'll boot up on the second drive to confirm it works, and that way if one drive blows up, I can just boot off the other for quick recovery. (Looks like this is done via the BIOS for SATA drives ... no more master/slave jumpers? Nice.)

SW -- thanks for the suggestion. I actually have Microcenter right by me, so I'll probably grab the one they have even though it's a bit overkill. Based on your recommendation, I'll check LM Remote. Do you recommend it because it's easier to set up?

Of course, the first thing I'll want to do with the new system is wipe it and reinstall Windows 7. A little off-topic, but I'm wondering what people's experiences with this have been. Is it straightforward to blow away existing partitions and install clean (like XP was), or has MS added pain to the process?

[Clift]

Vista was a bit more painful, but Windows 7 is pretty easy. Actually it's easier than XP was because it's all graphical with mouse support. As for the length, just get an RCA cable. Since the adapter is female, a male-to-male cable should work. The only thing you need to look out for is that the VGA port may not automatically be configured to output TV. You may have to connect the TV as a "second" monitor while you configure the VGA to TV-out. However, I have had it where an NVIDIA card detected it was connected to a TV. And my old All In Wonder x800 did the automatic detection too, but that card had a breakout dongle.

[budgie]

One other thing -- should I be getting this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812186010

instead of the USB to PCI card recommended earlier in the thread? It looks like the first one is old-school PCI, while the computer will actually have PCI-e.

Incidentally, how is the card better for the HD PVRs than using the onboard USB ports?

[Naylia]

I know the LCD TV is now later on in the equation but thought I would comment on the 720 vs 1080 question up top. Most "720p" tvs today are actually 1366x768 panels. These can be a pain in the butt to get pixel perfect resolution on. Steps have been made with video cards to make it easier, but depending on the tv it still may or may not work. If you buy a tv with 1920x1080 resolution panel life is usually easier, but you'll probably still want to hit up AVSForums and and ask about a particular model to see if anyone has tried it.

[SWKerr]

You are really looking for the NEC Chipset and that one has it.
I chose the PCI because I wanted to leave a open PCIe slot. I assumed that future cards would be more likely PCIe. I also have an issue in my server where one PCIe slot backs up against the chipset cooler and won't fit most cards.

Some USB chipsets just seem to suck. The HD-PVR is just more sensitive to it. There are a lot of recommendations on setting up each HD-PVR on its own USB card. It seems to be something that people learned from trial and error.

[budgie]

Thanks for the info on the 720p "standard" ... I didn't know that and will plan on 1080i when the time comes. (Hopefully the ATI 4350 will be up to it.)

Ok, so I now have the PC (with the video card) and the two HD PVRs (and have installed the second drive and the USB card). Now I have to deal with the part that damn near killed me last time, the UIRTs. A few questions based on my research:

First, am I correct in my understanding (from the Hauppauge PVR page) that signals should be blasted from USB-UIRTs to the HD PVRs, which in turn each blast that signal to their respective STBs? If so, why is this two-step process necessary as opposed to doing what I'm doing now (USB-UIRTs blast directly to the STBs)?

Second, I've seen in some forum posts that on Windows 7, I can only use one USB-UIRT. I had originally assumed I could buy two and dedicate each one to a PVR (I know I can technically control several STBs with one, but for starters I'd like to just get it working in the simplest configuration first). Does this mean that I should buy a single USB-UIRT and mimic the diagram in post #106 here: http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...RT+zone&page=6 -- with one emitter dedicated to each PVR?

Third, I've seen posts indicating that the PVR blasters are sometimes unreliable and people prefer using separate UIRTs instead. I'm not sure I'm catching how that's done ... are they talking about doing what I mention above, directly blasting from the USB-UIRTs to the STBs instead of "passing through" the PVRs?

Finally, in terms of installing the USB-UIRT, the PVRs, and the remote control and LM Remote software, what is the best order? I'm not sure which pieces will be looking for other pieces upon installation ... I just know that Sage goes last.

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by budgie

First, am I correct in my understanding (from the Hauppauge PVR page) that signals should be blasted from USB-UIRTs to the HD PVRs, which in turn each blast that signal to their respective STBs? If so, why is this two-step process necessary as opposed to doing what I'm doing now (USB-UIRTs blast directly to the STBs)?

Third, I've seen posts indicating that the PVR blasters are sometimes unreliable and people prefer using separate UIRTs instead. I'm not sure I'm catching how that's done ... are they talking about doing what I mention above, directly blasting from the USB-UIRTs to the STBs instead of "passing through" the PVRs?

The UIRT replaces the Hauppage IR blasters. You will go directly from the UIRT to the cable boxes and not use the Hauppage IR blasters at all. You can't use more than one HD-PVR blaster on the same machine, which is why you have to use the UIRT.