Building a new server - some advice?

[raoul]

Ok, things have been working too smoothly for me on my SageTV system, so I want to build a new server and start fresh again. Actually, I want to put a bit more oomph under the hood so that I can consider bringing some HD recording and PlayOn capabilities into my system (as well as moving commskip back on to the same machine).

I just scored a motherboard, processor chips, RAM, and I have harddrives from my current system that I will move over. Besides the capture cards and associated gear, I have to buy everything else. I am fairly competent in regards to hardware and software, but I admit I have never built a PC from scratch before and I am not sure what exactly I should buy. Any advice is appreciated!

What I just scored:

1) Motherboard - Asus KFN32-D SLI/SAS Motherboard - Looks fairly decent. Sound built into it including S/PDIF out

2) Processors - QTY 2, AMD Opteron 2224SE CPUs - Essentially 2, dual-core 3.2GHz chips

3) RAM - 4GB DDR2 SDRAM (667) - 2 sticks of 2GB each. Can add more, but this is what I have now. Not sure if I can take advantage of more memory in regards to the capture cards anyway?

What I have in current system to move over:

4) harddrives - 2 drives available for a total of 2.5TBytes

5) Capture cards - 2 Hauppauge PVR150 cards

6) USB-UIRT

What I need to buy:

7) Case - suggestions? Want expansion capability of additional drives. System hidden in closet, so I don't need bells and whistles. Closet is hot though.

8) Power Supply - how much wattage should I be looking for?

9) Video card - suggestions?

10) DVD drive (burner)

11) OS - I like XP and hate vista. I haven't tried Win7 yet. I was told that if I want to take advantage of the SAS (not sure if I do), that I might have to be running a 64bit operating system so that leans towards Win7. Otherwise, I am pretty happy running XP.


I am sure I will have some other questions in regards to transferring stuff over, but any suggestions on the above is greatly appreciated before I go down the wrong path.

[SWKerr]

Will the machine do Playback on a regular basis or is it just going to be the central point for recording and storing files?

Will it sit in a closet or be visible? Does it need to be Quite?

[raoul]

The machine will sit in a closet, actually a utility room next to my water heater and boiler (hence my comment about it being a bit hot....). I don't care if it is quiet and I don't care what it looks like too much. I am going for functionality.


I have 3 HD100s that connect to it. Currently, I have it directly plugged into a nearby TV via RGB connection as well. I could potentially move one of the HD100s to handle that connection if that helps. I guess I am saying that I do use this machine for playback as well as recording. I was hoping the 2 seperate dual core chips would be enough to support.

[davenlr]

I just built one with an Asus MB, 3 Ghz processor, 2GB ram and used onboard video and audio (who cares, its a server). Works perfectly with Windows 7. I used 32bit version as drivers are easier to find. Currently using 1 HDPVR with a DirecTv receiver controlled by USBUIRT, and a HDHomeRun2 using off air antenna connected to it via a 1 gigabit switch (motherboard has onboard gigabit ethernet). Serving that to a HD100 now, and will be getting a 200 in the future. 4.5TB of SATA storage. I used a cheap $50 powerup case from Tiger, as its got LOTS of room inside, and has extra fan mounts. Im using two fans on the case, and one on the CPU blowing out of the case.

Just check out Tiger Direct and look at their cases. Im using a 450W power supply, but they have ones up to 1000W if you need it (dont know how much power two CPUs will take).

Have fun. Take your time. Dont forget to mount the motherboard on the brass standoffs that come with the case.

4GB is more than plenty for a Sage server. Im not even using the two I have. Win7 has a 2 or 3 GB limit anyway for the 32bit version, and the 64 bit version I believe is limited as well unless you get the real expensive version.

Win7 is solid tho, very solid. Follow the guides on here about disabling UAC, and installing the patch, and it will work great.

[KarylFStein]

I bought a fairly inexpensive 19" 4U StarTech server chasis for my system along with a couple Addtronics 3-in-2 hot-swap hard drive cages so I could easily slide the drives in and out without screws. It has been *really* easy to work with and have no regrets. I doubt they make the models I use anymore, but probably have updated versions that are similar. Lots of room and good air flow as far as I can tell.

For the PSU, I found a couple guides on the Internet to estimate power requirements, (don't have the links, sorry). From what I've read, you want a high-quality PSU that matches your estimated power draw in order to take advantage of the 80+ etc. ratings. I'm running seven HDDs, a quad-core CPU, 4 sticks of DDR2 RAM, DVD drive, three PCIe cards and a couple USB devices on a Seasonic 450W PSU with no problems, (no staggered drive spin-up). I think it's when you get into one or more add-in video cards that you need more power, but I don't do that anymore .

[davephan]

You mentioned HD, what is your HD content source? Since you only have two PVR 150's and no other tuners, you must be building up a system for SD only, unless you are ripping DVD or download HD content.

You won't be able to use the whole 4 gigs with XP, so going above that memory level won't help if you use a 32 bit OS. The two CPU board has quite a few memory slots. Are each set of four slots tied to each CPU? The board is limited to 667 MHz memory, which seems a bit slow. Built in RAID and dual 10/100/1000 nics are all a nice plus.

When I setup my current SageTV system, which is my forth system, I searched for a system board that could run 10 drives, dual nics, and a lot of USB connectors with an I-7 1366, 3 gig quad core. I already had a full tower case that I had from my last system. The full tower currently has 12 drives in it, 10 SATA and 2 IDE drives. I could install a couple of drive cages in the case to add another 6 drives, but I would need to buy RAID controller for the additional drives. If you increase your disk too much, the disk will still fill up, and you'll never have enough time to watch much of the videos you have stored.

I have a 750 watt power supply in my SageTV system, which is more than enough power. I used to use a 850 watt power supply. I use a 450 watt power supply on a smaller system, but maybe it would be OK if you didn't have a lot of drives.

I thought about building up the system with WHS, but the recovery options for the operating system are poor since disk imaging doesn't work with WHS. I also considered Windows 7. I decided to stay with Windows XP after reading too many stories where people were having trouble with Windows 7. Windows 7 is still not officially supported with SageTV.

You might also think of how you plan to protect your data and have quick recoveries, if you have a system failure. I use both Ghost and Acronis daily imaging for my boot/programs drive, plus RAID 1 drive pairs for the video files.

Dave

[sandor]

having switched recently to an HD200 vs. the server powering a tv, i would say build this up as a recording/serving machine only. then you can cheap on the video card, don't have to worry about audio issues, etc.

Playback issues have been cut to zero with the HD200 + Mac SageTV server + OTA HDHR tuners. My HD200 runs over wifi, and works beautifully, and the server stays in the closet.

[SWKerr]

I use the Antec 300. It is a great Value. The link includes a 430W Power Supply for $99. Just the case is $55. If you are patient you can usually get it with Free shipping.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-065-_-Product

My server has 6 hard drives and never passes 220W even at boot. A big power supply would not be necessary for a server.

Video Card: ATI 4350 ($35): You don't need much but for $35 you get a passively cooled card that will do HD playback for setup needs and Future uses.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814121310

I installed with a DVD from another machine and removed the drive when done. I rip DVDs and BluRays from my Desktop and put them on the server. You can put a AnyDVD on the server and playback from the DVD directly but if it is in a closet away from everything you probably won't do that. Any $25 DVD player will work. A BR-ROM can be had for $65 and will also play DVDs.

I use WHS and Vista 64 and Win7 64 for everything else. The move to WHS has been a great move. Sage has been rock solid.

[heatvent]

Originally Posted by raoul

What I just scored:

Hopefully you mean legally

Originally Posted by raoul

3) RAM - 4GB DDR2 SDRAM (667) - 2 sticks of 2GB each. Can add more, but this is what I have now. Not sure if I can take advantage of more memory in regards to the capture cards anyway?

In case you weren't aware, 4GB is the max for 32 bit system. To go higher, you need 64 bit.

Originally Posted by raoul

7) Case - suggestions? Want expansion capability of additional drives. System hidden in closet, so I don't need bells and whistles. Closet is hot though.

If it's going in the closet, doesn't matter except I would go with a full tower so you get good airflow, don't need to cram stuff and have plenty of room for all the things you are putting in there. I would get the cheapest I could find unless you want something like screwless design (which is really nice when you have a bunch of components to install), then spend a few more $$. Newegg has good deals from time to time. Look for the ones with free shipping!

Originally Posted by raoul

8) Power Supply - how much wattage should I be looking for?

I would check the ASUS/AMD recommendations for you setup. Don't guess. I don't think a 300W will be sufficient. I suspect you need something bigger. I would also get something brand name vs. generic. Maybe you can find a nice case that comes with a PS.

Originally Posted by raoul

9) Video card - suggestions?

The faster the better. I am partial to ATI products. Also, before you dump $$ into a card, I would strongly recommend considering using extenders. This will move some of the processing off your system and video cards generate additional heat and noise. The extenders work great, are small, quiet, boot up almost instantly, etc. They are also, in my opinion, the whole reason to go with Sage. You don't have to wrestle with codec issues and good video cards start to compete price wise with the HD200. If you are looking for fully PC access from your TV, then of course you need to get a card.

Originally Posted by raoul

11) OS - I like XP and hate vista. I haven't tried Win7 yet. I was told that if I want to take advantage of the SAS (not sure if I do), that I might have to be running a 64bit operating system so that leans towards Win7. Otherwise, I am pretty happy running XP.

Up to you but if you are going with extenders, XP or WHS would be good options. If you are going with direct TV hookup, go with W7. It supports much more advanced features on video cards and doesn't have all the Vista issues and less bloat. You may have to deal with some Sage compatibility issues? Not sure if all the bugs are worked out yet. If you are going to use extenders, WHS is a great option and will do a nice job. You will have to think about your hard drive setup as WHS takes control of all the hard drives you let it manage and doesn't do 64kb formatting (unless you do a work around). I use WHS which manages my pool of data drives (2GB) and I currenlty have my TV recordings on a dedicated separate drive that is not part of the WHS drive pool (I don't like the idea of having a lot of activity on the drive(s) with data that I don't want to lose like pictures, etc.).

[Djc208]

I thought the Hauppage 150's didn't like more than 2GB of RAM for some reason?

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by heatvent

Also, before you dump $$ into a card, I would strongly recommend considering using extenders. This will move some of the processing off your system...

And by "some", you really mean "almost all".

Seriously, if you can go extender-only, you only need processing power for add-ons (comskip, etc.). You don't need anything above onboard video and you don't need much of a processor either (see my sig). And, as heatvent said, for the price of a good video card, you might as well buy an extender.

[heatvent]

Originally Posted by raoul

5) Capture cards - 2 Hauppauge PVR150 cards

Missed this before. If you are doing HD, you will need to add a HD compatible setup to your list of things to buy. I use the HVR-2250 for ClearQAM/Analog recording and have been very happy with it. It doesn't use much CPU and has dual hybrid tuners with only 1 coax connection (saves some splitting of you signal). You can get it for around $100 which is pretty good for a 2 tuner space saving card.

Many people like the HD HomeRun network encoder but that does over the air HD not ClearQAM. I think the other common setups are to use your HD STB with either the HD-PVR or there is a DirectTV (or is it Dish?) compatible mod to their STB.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by heatvent

Missed this before. If you are doing HD, you will need to add a HD compatible setup to your list of things to buy. I use the HVR-2250 for ClearQAM/Analog recording and have been very happy with it. It doesn't use much CPU and has dual hybrid tuners with only 1 coax connection (saves some splitting of you signal). You can get it for around $100 which is pretty good for a 2 tuner space saving card.

Many people like the HD HomeRun network encoder but that does over the air HD not ClearQAM. I think the other common setups are to use your HD STB with either the HD-PVR or there is a DirectTV (or is it Dish?) compatible mod to their STB.

HD HomeRun does ClearQAM, too.

[heatvent]

My bad. Did that change at some point. I remember when I was originally setting up and looked at it I thought it was just ATSC.

[sic0048]

I think it has always done Clear QAM. Actually I really like the HDHR because it is a true dual tuner. Meaning it can be set up for 2 ATSC tuners, or 2 QAM tuners, or 1 of each. Many hybrid tuners have both ATSC and ClearQAM but can only do one or the other, not both at the same time.

[raoul]

Ok... first of all. Thanks to everyone for the responses! I knew I was coming to the right place for this discussion. I can't say that my path is exactly clear yet, but at least I am starting to get a glimpse of the right path (or at least what I need to consider). Lots of questions in these responses for me to address.

1) I did score all of this legally. A buddy of mine's hand-me-downs as he built his new server.

2) I will look at the documentation for the power supply requirements, but it does depend on the number of drives I will be running. With the dual processors, I expect a load. Maybe a 450W PS would be enough, but I will aim for the 750W level. Right now it is just a server, but who knows what I will do in the future.

3) I think I need a reasonable video card, but it sounds like everyone thinks I should dump the RGB connection and just put an extender on my local TV. I do have an extra extender at this point, so not a problem. I didn't do that in the past because I would use the TV as the PC monitor and watch HULU or whatever. I can probably get away with the cheap ATI 4350 that SWKerr suggested. The motherboard doesn't have any on-board video, so I will need something.

4) Like item 3 above, I hear what everyone is saying about using the extenders and removing need for processing power. I still want to run some of the add-ons that will require this (PlayOn server, commskip, etc) and who knows whatelse down the road. I think I have enough processing power.

5) I am wanting to move in the HD direction. I do not have any HD capture cards yet, but the first step in this direction is the new PC. I do have DirectTV HD, so I will have to buy an HD-PVR for that. I don't think I have any ClearQAM sources (through cable?) but we get like 3 or 4 OTA HD channels that I would have to think about. Not many I know... I live in the sticks.

6) OS - looks like I will have to do some more thinking in this area. My current system has 4GB in it (XP) and it seemed necessary to keep all the extenders running smoothly. I did all the java heap sizing, but with 1GB, it just didn't work. I do appreciate to take advantage of the 4GB (or really any higher) that I will have to go to a 64bit OS. I think I might just stick with 32bit XP for now, or perhaps 32bit Win7.

7) data backup - I could implement a raid setup I suppose, but I wasn't planning on it. I usually just manually backup the OS partition, and I have my movies and audio backed up elsewhere. I usually just figure the TV recordings are fair game if I lose them and don't worry too much about it.

8) Should I be utilizing the SAS for the drives, or will my SATAs be fast enough?

9) I haven't ripped any bluRays yet, as I figured my old system would have had problems playing it back. I will probably just put a DVD burner in, and maybe a BR-ROM if I can find it for $65 like SWKerr suggests, then it is a no-brainer. That would be a situation where I would pipe the PC directly to the TV. My closet is conveniently located, so this is quite convenient for me.

lots to keep thinking about.....thanks!!!

[doncote0]

Didn't see this before but you have mostly good responses. Everyone has their preferences. Since this is a server, I would imagine that noise is not an issue.

For the video, I would go with a 1GB RADEON HD 5750 just because it is cheaper and has out performed some NVIDIA cards at the same price point (so much in fact that it is now listed as a best buy gaming card in many reviews). It's great because it is cheap but has enough power to use hardware accelerated transcoding/decoding of two 1080P video streams simulteously (with Dolby 7.1 audio built in).

Go ANTEC Earthwatts 750W--it's a good combination of solid power and has the added benefits of being quiet and about a bajillion ratings you might not care about.

Case - you need space, and airflow...depending on how many cards slots you need will help choose your case. I heard some Lian Li cases have 10-11 slots on them.

Those case are a bit much for me. I went with the NZXT Tempest, but would have preferred the Cooler Master HAF-932 or Antec 1200.

The Tempest is great, being a roomy mid tower case, but just a tad wider would have been good. I had to mount the radiator of my Corsair H50 CPU watercooler sideways to fit with the case closed.

If you want quiet, look for non-sleeve bearing fans that still produce good airflow. I replaced the Corsair fan on my H50 with a GELID fan that has more output pressure, more output flow and less noise. The H50 is a great CPU cooler, and since you have two CPU's, I imagine you could use two of them with the right case (like the HAF-932 -- it lets you mount 3 120MM fans on top and four on the side, so you would have plenty of options).

I am going Windows 7 (64 bit). The idea of having 24 GB of RAM in a Sage server system makes me smile.

If you want to cut down on power, noise and increase system speed, you might want to look at Solid State Drives (SSD). Having the OS and cache on those seems pretty nice (but pricey). I'll look to upgrade to one (eventually up to 4 in RAID 0).



Don't forget to consider cablecard tuners http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...t=44085&page=8 before you buy. It might help you save money to wait a little bit.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by doncote0

I am going Windows 7 (64 bit). The idea of having 24 GB of RAM in a Sage server system makes me smile.

Why? What would you be doing on a dedicated Sage server that would tax 4GB RAM, let alone 24GB? Or, is it not a dedicated server?

[doncote0]

It is not a dedicated stand-alone Sage server. This system also is a workstation. With 24GB, I would be doing anything that I wanted to do.

Create a RAM drive and run the cache virtual for faster computing? Maybe.

Run a virtualized server or OS on the same system? Maybe.

Do a comskip analysis while the program is recording? Probably.

Transcode HD H264 recordings on the fly to a standard definition media extender? Definitely.

Trancode HD H264 recordings (already recorded or in progress) on the fly to a iPhone. Definitely.

Make a virtual copy of a Blu-Ray disk? Might not have enough memory. Should be a plus when I start recording Blu-Ray disks though.

Search for extra-terestrial life? Probably not...I already have enough channels.

Do I need that much memory? I don't know. What were we talking about again? Oh yeah..."The idea of having 24 GB of RAM in a Sage server system makes me smile."

I never thought I would tax the 4GB that I currently have installed, but I do.

I want this system to last for 4 to 8 more years, and that shouldn't be a problem.