Placeshifter and HD-PVR

[darcilicious]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

Has anyone actually contacted support about this? Given how long the HD-PVR has been around for, it seems odd that SageTV hasn't fixed this.

Well, if this issue is at all related to how SageTVs built-in transcoder deals with HD-PVR files, then yes, I think it's being worked on.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by darcilicious

Well, if this issue is at all related to how SageTVs built-in transcoder deals with HD-PVR files, then yes, I think it's being worked on.

Thanks. I figured it couldn't hurt to find out for sure, so I sent support the info... plus, the more people asking about it, the more attention it should (hopefully) get.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

I gave it a shot and tried to stream over the LAN. Results?

1080i MPEG2-TS/H.264 (HDHR) recording: Streams no problem using Dynamic Streaming (looks like full quality)
1080i MPEG2-PS (HD-PVR) recording: Stutters horribly even at 300kbps/352x240

Doesn't the HDHR just work for OTA or QAM? If that is so then isn't this MPEG-2 rather than H.264? I believe the transcoding issues are just for H.264 format recordings. My upload speed is only 800 kbps so if I want to transcode then I generally will also record the show in SD format for transcoding purposes or if I am watching live via Placeshifter I will watch an SD channel rather than HD.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by wayner

Doesn't the HDHR just work for OTA or QAM? If that is so then isn't this MPEG-2 rather than H.264? I believe the transcoding issues are just for H.264 format recordings. My upload speed is only 800 kbps so if I want to transcode then I generally will also record the show in SD format for transcoding purposes or if I am watching live via Placeshifter I will watch an SD channel rather than HD.

You made me verify my research and you're correct. I had them reversed.

This is exactly what's shown (in the web interface) for the OTA recordings (which streams fine):

Encoded by: Silicondust HDHomeRun Tuner 10160E34-1 WNBCDT

File Format: MPEG2-PS[MPEG2-Video 16:9 1080i@29.97fps, AC3/384Kbps@48kHz 5.1 eng , AC3/192Kbps@48kHz Stereo spa ]

And this is the HD-PVR (which stutters):

Encoded by: Hauppauge HD PVR Capture Device Best-H.264

File Format: MPEG2-TS[H.264 1080i, AC3/448Kbps@48kHz 5.1]

EDIT: I'll need to ensure I clarify this when support gets back to me. Although, I did link to this thread, so they may read this correction. BTW... thanks for catching my mistake!

[Deacon Crusher]

yep, going on vacation so just setup and tested placeshifter and it is awesome for hd-homerun generated recodings, but with the massive loss of QAM channels I suffered a few months ago a much higher percentage of my shows are now recorded through the HD-PVR and those shows are not watchable through the placeshifter.

Sage, V7 is a huge step forward, but let's get some video chipset assisted transcoding going on and then we'll be able to watch h264 via placeshifter and by shifting the transcoding load to the gpu the cpu will stay free to handle basic sage tasks and comskip marking etc. If the first release of this has to require a specific video chipset then so be it, give us the choice to take advantage of that.

Thanks

[wayner]

H.264 takes much more horespower to transcode than MPEG-2 does. And the other thing is that MPEG-2 has been around for a long time and is much more widely supported than H.264.

You would think that this wouldn't be an issue as long as you have a fast enough CPU but it appears that it sill is. I believe that Sage currently uses a third party transcoder - that is likely why they are moving to develop their own transcoder.

I know this it totally suboptimal but if you are travelling you have several things that could cause problems with your stream, including your upload speed, the speed in your hotel (or wherever you are staying) that may get bogged down, or even some slowdown in the internet between your home and your remote PC. You have a much higher probability of having a watchable stream if it is in SD even though it is hard to watch SD after you are used to HD.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by Deacon Crusher

Sage, V7 is a huge step forward, but let's get some video chipset assisted transcoding going on and then we'll be able to watch h264 via placeshifter and by shifting the transcoding load to the gpu the cpu will stay free to handle basic sage tasks and comskip marking etc. If the first release of this has to require a specific video chipset then so be it, give us the choice to take advantage of that.

As a WHS user, I hope GPU assistance is secondary to getting H.264 working with Placeshifter. I agree it'll be beneficial, but most of the WHS users do not have a beefy GPU in their server. I do have 4 cores available, though, so I don't worry about CPU load.

[Deacon Crusher]

Reason I'm lobbying for GPU assist is if you look around GPUs are able to transcode h264 way faster then CPUs (orders of magnitude faster) and I'm talking a $90 or $100 nvidia GPU not a high end card. This would make placeshifter work over lan or over wan connections with h264 streams and it should be able to maintain a higher quality.

[wayner]

This thread also brings up some interesting questions - what is the minimum bitrate required for acceptable quality transcoded video if the source is:
(1) 1080i
(2) 720p
(3) 480p (or i)

I guess the problem is how do you define acceptable.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by wayner

H.264 takes much more horespower to transcode than MPEG-2 does. And the other thing is that MPEG-2 has been around for a long time and is much more widely supported than H.264.

You would think that this wouldn't be an issue as long as you have a fast enough CPU but it appears that it sill is. I believe that Sage currently uses a third party transcoder - that is likely why they are moving to develop their own transcoder.

I'll have to check this out when I get home. I'm curious to know if one of the CPU cores are pegged while trying to stream H.264. I'm making the assumption that the transcoding isn't multi-threaded. Anyone know for sure?

I know this it totally suboptimal but if you are travelling you have several things that could cause problems with your stream, including your upload speed, the speed in your hotel (or wherever you are staying) that may get bogged down, or even some slowdown in the internet between your home and your remote PC. You have a much higher probability of having a watchable stream if it is in SD even though it is hard to watch SD after you are used to HD.

The only issue I have with this is that it requires quite a bit of planning. I would need to wait until the last minute to determine which shows I haven't watched yet and decide which ones I will want to watch while away. The dynamic streaming in Placeshifter should be able to handle the other bottlenecks you mentioned.

I do understand what you're saying, though. It's just not a solution I would be satisfied with. Rather than live with that, I'd upgrade the CPU or add a GPU to the server, if that's what I need to do.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by wayner

This thread also brings up some interesting questions - what is the minimum bitrate required for acceptable quality transcoded video if the source is:
(1) 1080i
(2) 720p
(3) 480p (or i)

I guess the problem is how do you define acceptable.

For me, as long as playback is smooth and I can make out some details, I'd be content. Right now, I can't even watch H.264 at <300kbps @ 352x240. The audio comes through, but the video only updates about every 10-15 seconds, which is obviously unacceptable. While traveling, I'm not going to be watching via a 1080p TV. More than likely, it'll be on a laptop with a 15" screen.

I can't equate "watchable" to bitrates, since I don't have enough knowledge to know how a given bitrate would look. I can tell you that I have no problem streaming/watching Hulu in HD. That's good enough for me in a pinch.

[wayner]

I know what you are saying. One way I deal with this is to transfer recorded files to my laptop before leaving home - I can then watch them on the plane or when I am at my destination.

My main use for Placeshifter was to watch live TV, generally sports, when I am away from home as you generally can't get your home teams' games when you are outside of your local market.

I was trying to figure out how to efficiently download recorded shows from my home to my laptop while travelling so that I could watch on the plane ride home. This would only work for SD recordings since the HD files would be way too big. These shows would generally be sporting events that were 2-3 hours long and I was trying to figure out how to use SJQ to do the following:

1. transcode show to a more efficient format (not required for H.264 files) but I would transcode MPEG-2 files to MPEG-4
2. chop up into several files 30 mins in length
3. upload the pieces to a web hosted space

For example - record the hockey game from 7:30-10pm. Transcode from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4. Split up into pieces that are 30 mins in length. Then upload these 4-6 files to a web hosted space.

The bottleneck in this process would still be the upload from my home but assuming that I didn't begin the download until a later time this would change the bottleneck from the upload speed of my home ISP to the upload speed of the web hosting site or even the download speed of my hotel internet connection.

Having smaller files will also make the process more fault tolerant as my upload speed of 800 kbps translates to 360 MBph (Mega Bytes per hour) so even transcoding a 2 hour video file to MPEG-4 will take many hours to download and having your internet connection drop can kill the transfer.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by wayner

I know what you are saying. One way I deal with this is to transfer recorded files to my laptop before leaving home - I can then watch them on the plane or when I am at my destination

It's bad enough when it's just you choosing what to watch, but when you throw other people into the mix? Forget it.

As for the rest of what you're talking about... no way would I go through that much work. I just don't think I'd be able to justify the effort. I would definitely be looking for alternative solutions, like Slingbox or something.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

It's bad enough when it's just you choosing what to watch, but when you throw other people into the mix? Forget it.

We are getting to the stage where at times we have one laptop per person. And my normal travel list now includes: laptop, iPad, Blackberry, Kindle2, iPod and iPod shuffle. Just think if NASA had technology that good when they were doing the lunar missions 40 years ago!

Originally Posted by Skirge01

As for the rest of what you're talking about... no way would I go through that much work. I just don't think I'd be able to justify the effort. I would definitely be looking for alternative solutions, like Slingbox or something.

The problem is that the Slingox would only help when you are online - I want to be able to download files to my laptop for offline viewing, normally on an airplane as I fly to Europe or Asia about 7-8 times per year. Perhaps that won't be necessary when internet becomes commonplace on intercontinental flights.

[Spectrum]

Originally Posted by wayner

I know what you are saying. One way I deal with this is to transfer recorded files to my laptop before leaving home - I can then watch them on the plane or when I am at my destination.

My main use for Placeshifter was to watch live TV, generally sports, when I am away from home as you generally can't get your home teams' games when you are outside of your local market.

I was trying to figure out how to efficiently download recorded shows from my home to my laptop while travelling so that I could watch on the plane ride home. This would only work for SD recordings since the HD files would be way too big. These shows would generally be sporting events that were 2-3 hours long and I was trying to figure out how to use SJQ to do the following:

1. transcode show to a more efficient format (not required for H.264 files) but I would transcode MPEG-2 files to MPEG-4
2. chop up into several files 30 mins in length
3. upload the pieces to a web hosted space

For example - record the hockey game from 7:30-10pm. Transcode from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4. Split up into pieces that are 30 mins in length. Then upload these 4-6 files to a web hosted space.

The bottleneck in this process would still be the upload from my home but assuming that I didn't begin the download until a later time this would change the bottleneck from the upload speed of my home ISP to the upload speed of the web hosting site or even the download speed of my hotel internet connection.

Having smaller files will also make the process more fault tolerant as my upload speed of 800 kbps translates to 360 MBph (Mega Bytes per hour) so even transcoding a 2 hour video file to MPEG-4 will take many hours to download and having your internet connection drop can kill the transfer.

I have some scripts that I used for transcoding 720P/60fps mpeg2 to 720P/24fps x264 using megui and it's associated tools. They are kind of ugly and not all the functionality is there (no audio transcoding, no cleanup, etc) but if you are familiar with perl or have an inclination to learn you should be able to do this pretty simply by kicking off the scripts with SJQ.

As for uploading to a webhost, why not just install an ssh or sftp server like http://www.freesshd.com/ and you could download directly from your HTPC?

To use my scripts you will need Perl, I like Strawberry.
MeGUI
AVISynth
TIVTC if it is not included with MeGUI (I don't remember)

I've attached my perl and avs script in case you want to take a look. Beware, this is something I threw together quickly and it was never intended for public consumption so things are UGLY. But it might give you a place to start I'll be glad to answer any questions

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Spectrum

As for uploading to a webhost, why not just install an ssh or sftp server like http://www.freesshd.com/ and you could download directly from your HTPC?

i know this sounds kind of screwy but i am trying to get around the biggest bottleneck which is my upload speed. If I am somewhere like Asia then it is unlikely that I would be able to start downloading the file immediately since it would be around noon and I won't be hanging around my hotel room. So i figure that if I can upload the file(s) to a webhost with a faster download then when I do get to start downloading it will go much quicker.

It is really hard to find an ISP that gives upload speeds greater than two Mbps, at least here in Toronto it is.

[Spectrum]

Originally Posted by wayner

i know this sounds kind of screwy but i am trying to get around the biggest bottleneck which is my upload speed. If I am somewhere like Asia then it is unlikely that I would be able to start downloading the file immediately since it would be around noon and I won't be hanging around my hotel room. So i figure that if I can upload the file(s) to a webhost with a faster download then when I do get to start downloading it will go much quicker.

It is really hard to find an ISP that gives upload speeds greater than two Mbps, at least here in Toronto it is.

Gotcha. If you are purchasing webhosting, as long as you get one that allows ssh access, you can sftp files to the server from the command line using psftp or similar. That would be easy to script and fire off using SJQ.

I'm not sure if you could upload to one of the services like Rapidshare, etc from the command line though; I've never used them.

[cereal_killer]

it might be worth noting that while placeshifter suffers from stuttering and lockup after a few seconds of playing a live hd-pvr session or a previously recorded one, sage client does not. i loaded up sage client at home and while using the free 21 day trial, it works perfectly.



EDIT:

anyone else no longer having this issue? as of the 26th im no longer having issues with placeshifter and my HD-PVR.

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

I'll have to check this out when I get home. I'm curious to know if one of the CPU cores are pegged while trying to stream H.264. I'm making the assumption that the transcoding isn't multi-threaded. Anyone know for sure?

I am positive it's not multi-threaded. Whenever I use placeshifter, it pegs a core of my server.

Something else I just wanted to mention is I used to not be able to placeshift 1080i content from the HD-PVR, but with the latest SageTV 7, it streams very smoothly. Before I could only get 720p.

[Skiier__Dude]

I wanted to post an update as well.

I too have now upgraded to the Sage 7 Beta (RC3). No change for me Placeshifting HDPVR content -- Content (recorded at 720p) stutters over the WAN. I can pause it for a minute, and get a few minutes of good playback, but really no different than Sage 6. I currently have a Dual Core CPU and one of the cores that's doing the Transcoding sits at close to 100%.

For me, a new Quad Core CPU is now on the truck and I will see if that makes a difference to Placeshifting. It's the ONLY thing I can't get working right with Sage and drives me nuts!!!