ATI vs Nvidia & SageTV - the quest for quality video in a SageTV Client

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by Oats

I'm installing the Nvidia PureVideo decoder too.

I don't think there is any need for it -- but let me know how it works. I may try it with my n210.

[Oats]

Originally Posted by brainbone

I don't think there is any need for it -- but let me know how it works. I may try it with my n210.

It used to be the favorite decoder on the forums before I got an extender. But from doing a little research it seems the last release was 2006, so I think I'll skip it and move on to another.

I was planning on trying out several decoders to see which I liked best.

[SWKerr]

Just for this experiment I watched the Alabama\Florida game yesterday via antenna on my HDHR. This was on my new Panasonic 50" Plasma. This is a new set for me and the first time I have had something large enough to tell any real difference between 720 and 1080. As an NC State grad I had no real problem pausing it to play with the settings although I was happy to see the Tide kick a little Florida butt.

This is a ATI 4550 on a Windows Vista Business 64 bit setup. Dual core AMD X2 5050e. It is running the current production release of the Sage Client. Installed Arcsoft form HD-PVR, Cyberlink9 (Mpeg2), Cyberlink8 (h.264), ffdshow.

At first glance it looked really good. I really did not notice anything annoying like the jerky motion and it seemed clear. After awhile I noticed that some of the wide shots didn't look nearly as crisp and in distant shots of teams in formation I could see noticeable blocking around the quarterbacks head. I decided to compare it to the live feed into the TV. What I found was that most of what I was noticing was from the source feed. I did decide that the TV OTA tuner picture was still better than Sage (which I expected). I set about playing with the setup to see if I could improve the picture.

First I went through the available options In Sage, Arcsoft, Cyberlink9, SageTV, ffdshow. I also tried EVR and Overlay. (Skipped VMR9). I did not monitor cpu usage. (In the past I have had problems with broken hardware acceleration with EVR but that does not seem to be a problem with my current drivers and I get horrible jerky playback when it is not working.)

The winner from this was the Cyberlink9 codec. Overlay may have been better than EVR but not enough to say for sure. I stuck with EVR in the end.

I moved on to playing with the ATI settings. It has been awhile since I played with these since I never really found anything that worked better than the defaults. Summary I was able to f#%@ it up but did not find anthing that materially made it better. In the end it was still not a good as the TV tuner but looked pretty good. (but that is where I started)

Notes:
1. I was able to recreate the jerky motion described at some point but did not note which setting or combo of settings caused it.
2. Selection Adaptive Anti-Aliasing caused tearing in overlay and EVR.
3. SMOOTHVISION Wide-Tent may have been the best

I then end I went back to the defaults because it looked good enough.

I did compare the HD-PVR\DirecTV 1080i picture while I was at it and it was clearly softer than the HDHR feed. For sports I will be using the OTA signal whenever possible. I also watched a few "How I met your Mother" episodes this week where I had a mix of MPEG2(HDHR) and h.264(HD-PVR) files and I could not see any material difference there. (Both looked great (Empirical evidence) but I could not do a episode to episode compare and there is very little in the way of action and high speed motion.)

[dcardellini]

Originally Posted by SWKerr

Just for this experiment I watched the Alabama\Florida game yesterday via antenna on my HDHR. ..........This is a ATI 4550 on a Windows Vista Business 64 bit setup. Dual core AMD X2 5050e. It is running the current production release of the Sage Client. Installed Arcsoft form HD-PVR, Cyberlink9 (Mpeg2), Cyberlink8 (h.264), ffdshow................

Great write-up, SwKerr! You have given me fresh hope. Maybe Vista is the secret sauce for decent playback, today, and shortly, Win7 when Sagetv works thru better support. It will kill me to buy Vista at this point, though!

A couple questions.

Assume that the football game you performed these tests on was native 1080i (although you do not explicitly mention this)?

I have no problem playing back 1080i material WITHOUT DXVA on an X2 @2.6 ghz (same as your 5050e)....so it does nag at me that you truly consistently had DXVA cooking throughout your tests (despite your past experience that no-DXVA= disaster without need to monitor CPU usage).

Renethx over at avsforum has said many times that the 4550 is not optimal for deinterlacing support on 1080i material. He claims that the 4670 gives the best deinterlacing options for this stuff. Perhaps that is what it takes to "match" the performance of your TV's OTA tuner. (of course, at cost of noise and heat and real estate).

Curious why you "expected" that the TV's OTA would be better than the HTPC's? Is a Sigma decoding chip that I suspect is in the TV (and the HD200)SO much better than anything that graphic card mfgrs can muster up?

[Savage1701]

FWIW, I can get better acceleration with an 8600 series Nvidia card than with a new 4670 BUT I wll say this - I use the CSI "A Family Affair" opening scene with its bullet time and time slicing quite a bit to check on my cards and such. I can say the 4670 could process it better, but I can't say why.

All in all though, I have had better luck with 8600 and 9800 Nvidia cards under all the codec packs I own and have tried, but I doubt I've stumbled onto anything that works awesome with 1080i other than the HD200, although that opening scene in CSI was handled better by the 4670.

Bad part is, I can't get consistent EVR-based acceleration with my 4670 under Vista.

I still think that scene is the one of the best "problem children" out there to see if one can minimize jaggies and judder.

The quest continues... :-)

[brainbone]

Can you take the same 1080i file that an Nvidia card works "better" with under SageTV, and get it to play noticeably better with an ATI under WMP? How about using GraphStudio?

Even my lowly 4350 can give great results, no jaggies, jumpiness etc. -- just not under SageTV.

[SWKerr]

Assume that the football game you performed these tests on was native 1080i (although you do not explicitly mention this)?

Yes

Curious why you "expected" that the TV's OTA would be better than the HTPC's?

I expect that the dedicated device is better engineered for just one purpose. The PC Video Card is a complex comprise. Resized for Overscan, Different input types and sizes.

More:
Watched the Panter's game on the TV upstairs today. Same basic setup as last post (ATI 4550, Windows Vista 64, same version of Sage). The TV is a older 42" Plasma\1080i. The thing to note here is that the source material from the HDPV is much better than from the College games yesterday. Overall a lot better quality. Did not try to test different setting just noting that I did not have any problems, Great Quality.

I also watched the Panthers some on my main desktop. (Windows7, ATI 785G, Phenom II X4) This one drives a Acer 23" LCD Widescreen(set to 1080p) and a 19" LCD (not wide). EVR\Cyberlink9 and again everything looked really good. and no playback problems.

Note: Window7 Problem: I am having an issue right now in Windows7 where sometimes after waking from sleep I get a black screen in playback of TV. (Sage and MediaCenter) A reboot fixes it. This was not an issue on the Window7 RC when I was testing it.

[Rico66]

Originally Posted by SWKerr

Note: Window7 Problem: I am having an issue right now in Windows7 where sometimes after waking from sleep I get a black screen in playback of TV. (Sage and MediaCenter) A reboot fixes it. This was not an issue on the Window7 RC when I was testing it.

Probably a driver issue. Which CCC version are you using?

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by SWKerr

Yes
I expect that the dedicated device is better engineered for just one purpose. The PC Video Card is a complex comprise. Resized for Overscan, Different input types and sizes.

I take issue with this expectation. Most modern graphics hardware are built with quality HD video display as a high priority, and have much more processing power available for use in video display than the average TV hardware.

With proper settings, WMP (and other software, just not yet SageTV) in combination with relatively recent Nvidia, Intel or ATI graphics hardware, is able to produce results that can match or exceed the abilities of the built in decoders/deinterlacers in most TVs. The problem is that SageTV can't harness this power.

As for the "Resized for Overscan, Different input types and sizes"... I'm not sure what point you're making here, but it sounds like you have your TV and/or HTPC improperly configured. Are you driving your display at 1080p? Do you have overscan/underscan turned off in CCC, so there is no resize of the video signal?

If a HTPC isn't able to produce video at or above the quality of a TV, why would anyone want a HTPC??

[Fuzzy]

I can say I've been using win7-64 with my ATI 3600 series card over HDMI, using the microsoft decoders, and have no stuttering whatsoever. Perfectly smooth using EVR, with low CPU usage. This is either OTA MPEG-2, or Dish H.264 via R-5000.

[brainbone]

What resolution are you using on your 3600?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by brainbone

What resolution are you using on your 3600?

1920x1080 60 or 24 (depending on content). This is on my server (Athlon64 FX-60 w/3GB RAM) using the latest official drivers from ATI. My thoughts on why you are seeing the stuttering might be from the HD_PVR itself. If it gets 1080i content, it will always think it is interlaced video, as it can't read the frame mode flags that are in the original broadcast. It can't tell if it is Telecined 24hz material. Since I'm using the R-5000, I'm seeing the actual stream, which has the proper flagging (most the time), so it automatically does the de-telecine when needed (I still have, of course, 24Hz at 60Hz jitter if I don't switch modes, but that rarely bothers me)

[brainbone]

But again, the same recordings work perfectly in WMP.

I don't think your FX60 is too different in performance from the X2 4000+ I last tested in -- so I think cpu/platform performance can be crossed off the list.

ATI/Intel/Nvidia drivers/MS decoder should be able to detect progressive frames in content marked as interlaced. WMP and GraphStidio seem to be able to using the same graph as SageTV. After scene changes, you might see some bob-deinterlacing for a few frames while the deinterlacer tries to figure out what to do.

Also, you shouldn't need to switch modes to get display without jitter. Running at 1080p 59/60Hz should be enough.

[Fuzzy]

I was referring to film sourced material, which is impossible to play back smoothly on a 30 or 60 hz display. (This is the main reason for newer 120hz displays, smooth playback of 24hz material.. well.. that and bigger numbers seem to make people think it's better and will pay more for it). It is a small jitter, and most don't even notice it, but it IS there, as film frames are displayed for 3 then 2 frames 60Hz frames...

[brainbone]

I see. 3-2 pulldown judder hasn't really bothered me -- and certainly isn't what I'm complaining about.

It's possible that improper flagging of the video stream is whats causing SageTV to give poor results, and allowing other to claim success using the same hardware (using a different source), but since WMP and GraphStudio is able to handle the same stream without issue, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect SageTV to do the same.

[Savage1701]

Originally Posted by brainbone

Can you take the same 1080i file that an Nvidia card works "better" with under SageTV, and get it to play noticeably better with an ATI under WMP? How about using GraphStudio?

Even my lowly 4350 can give great results, no jaggies, jumpiness etc. -- just not under SageTV.

Honestly, I had not tried it under WMP and my ability to use GraphStudio is primitive at best. Guess I have my next project. It would be cool to know the what's and why's, that's for sure.

Anecdotally, I'd agree with you - there are times I have noticed that WMP handles stuff better. Or even PowerDVD.

I really do need to learn how to use GraphStudio. At least then I can appear to be an informed idiot rather than an uninformed one. And that comment is aimed STRICTLY at me, not at you or anyone else in here who has taken the time to really understand the in's and out's of this software.

[sdsean]

Using overlay, and cyber link (pdvd 8) decoders, everything has be great for me. . .

the problem for has always been when I try to switch to evr, then everything goes ape sh$&

i have been willing to stick with overlay, bc i never have stuttering or anything (my tv only does 60hz, DLP, and 720p).

what i can say is that stuttering or bad de-interlacing is almost always a codec or code+video card issue.

but if you saw what my screen does with EVR, you'd say WTF!! And what's really bizare is that usually with H.264 content EVR is fine, but MPEG2 is no good.

all this said I still can't CC to work though, and recently i have seen where the cursor on dvds has disappeared and I can't get overlayed text (like subtitles) to display. . .but again this is some crazy codec issue i'm sure. . .

[brainbone]

With overlay, don't think you're using DXVA, so no hardware acceleration.

Do the same recordings work well outside of SageTV?

[sdsean]

Actually I believe you still get hardware accel since i'm using the Cyberlink codecs and it manages that. . .its not the same as the dvxa stuff in the sage decoder though. ..

its tough for me to tell since my cpu usage is so low. . .

[Polypro]

If you're on Windows 7, The MS MPEG2 Decoder is deeply entrenched. You can see it in DSFM, but it's grayed out. If you set SageTV to "Default" it will use the MS decoder without having to mess with the properties file. You *can* increase the merit of AC3 Fliter and Windows 7 will obey and use it instead of the MS Audio Decoder. To take the MS Decoder out of the equation, you need to rename it...either directly, or through a 7MC utility called MCDU. I say this because W7 *REALLY* likes to insert the MS video decoder and even though you may secect a 3rd party decoder in SageTV...I'd enable debug logging to see if Sage is really obeying (for instance, you can register the TMT3 codec and it will look like it's working...but when you look at the debug log, it silently failed and built the graph with the MS decoder). You can use the nVIDIA decoder, but make sure you run in VMR9...EVR will put you in software mode...you won't get the tray icon either...you can adjust while playing content with DSFM, GraphEdit, or GraphStudio...but are limited to "Best Available" for deinterlacing modes. I've gone through ALL of this (just because, didn't have a problem) and am back at the MS Decoder with AC3Filter using EVR. Quality is fine.

P