ATI vs Nvidia & SageTV - the quest for quality video in a SageTV Client

[brainbone]

I looked around a bit and can't find much talk of this, and I understand that so many are now using the HD200 that is may not really concern anyone.

As hard as I tried, I was unable to get quality video from TV 1080i Mpeg2 recordings in a SageTV Client (6.6.2) under Vista/7 using some relatively recent ATI graphics cards (HD 3450, 4350 & 4650). The same recordings played from Windows Media Player worked great -- even better under GraphStudio if I used SageTV MpegDemux -- but would not work well under SageTV. Jumpy video, bad deinterlacing, etc. Any codec I try would result in near the same results. About the best I could accomplish is interpolated field deinterlacing with the SageTV codecs. Horribly blurry in high motion, and noticeably "jerky" in 24fps sourced/IVTC material (so, most 1080i material worth watching).

Changing to a Geforce N210 appears to resolve the issue, and 1080i recordings look acceptable under SageTV using the Microsoft decoder included with Windows 7. The Nvidia drivers seem to be able to override whatever setting SageTV is forcing.

I still want to get my ATI cards working well in SageTV, and have a support request in attempting to accomplish this, but thought I'd share my experience in case it helps anyone here with the same issues.

To be clear, I do not think this is an ATI hardware/driver problem, but rather an issue with SageTV. The same recordings, with the same hardware, work perfectly using Windows Media Player, etc.

(EDIT: Note that I do not recommend the N210 for a HTPC -- you need to overclock it for OK results in 1080i)

[SWKerr]

I doubt most beople are using extenders but I would be interested in knowing what the percentage is.

I am using Vista 64 and Windows7 64 with 2 ATI 4550s, 1 AMD 785G and one AMD 780G(720p only) all as SageTV clients and it looks fantastic. Just watched the MatriX on my new 52" Plasma this weekend at 1080p and I had nothing like what you described.

It has to be in your setup somewhere. The only problem I have ever traced to just Sage has been playback of True-HD files that Sage seems to choke on. (Jerky playback for some reason)

I have had problems in the past with DVXA enabled. Some ATI drives did not seem to work with some codecs with in turned on but I don't think it was any better in MPC. The latest drivers don seem to have this problem.

[brainbone]

The problem is only with 1080i MPEG2 TV recordings, watched from the guide or played from recorded tv -- not from the "Videos" section.

I've tried multiple configurations on multiple PCs, with the only constant being an ATI card. Either you are not as picky about your video, you're not watching 1080i mpeg2 recordings, or you have some magical combination I'm not aware of.

1080p and other videos play fine for me in SageTV -- as do the 1080i recordings, but only outside of SageTV.

[SWKerr]

Most of my recordings are HD-PVR (h.264) so I do not watch much OTA 1080i, Just when the two HD-PVRs have conflicts. (I have an occasional multi-path problem so it is not as reliable.)

I will have to watch some football over the weekend over the HDHomerun and see how it looks. I report back.

[Taddeusz]

Granted, I've never really used my SageTV Client for any kind of serious viewing but I don't feel that the quality is bad on 1080i recordings. I'm running on Windows 7 x64 using a Radeon 3870 and the built-in Microsoft decoder. I have SageTV set to use EVR. I don't get any jerky video. I have full hardware acceleration on both MPEG2 and H.264 video. I don't believe I'm seeing any of the problems you're seeing.

Edit: Also note that I have always_use_dshow_player=true set in my properties file.

[brainbone]

What resolution display? What Codec?

If using the SageTV decorder, you can get video that isn't "jerkey", but you'll be running it in half vertical resolution on interlaced material -- or, if you enable DXVA for the SageTV decoder, you'll be using interpolated field deinterlacing. During a camera pan with interpolated field deinterlacing you will notice a slight, but consistent, "jump". Plus, the interpolation blurs motion.

If using a lower resolution display (like 720p), things like the half vertical resolution may be less noticeable.

You may just not be that pick about your video quality, but I can just about guarantee that the problem is there for you.

[Taddeusz]

My display is 1680x1050 and as I said I'm using the Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder and I have EVR set as my renderer. I don't play video very often but the last time I watched a 1080i recording in it's entirety on SageTV, which was probably about 2 weeks ago or so, I never noticed any kind of stuttering or jerkiness on pans. I can play around with it tonight but I really don't believe I'm seeing the same kind of problems you are.

Are you also using the latest native recording patches on your client?

[brainbone]

Ive tried with and without the native recording patches, and with and without "always_use_dshow_player=true" in properties. No real difference, except stability problems with the "native recording patches".

[Taddeusz]

I'm not familiar with "interpolated field deinterlacing". Can you please describe it to me?

[brainbone]

Pretty much the same as blended field deinterlacing. The Main Concent decoder (sagetv decoder) describes it as "interpolated field deinterlacing" -- so it stuck in my head as such.

Most 1080i content should be able to use Inverse Telecine deinterlacing -- bringing the content back to its original, progressive, 24fps source. The more I look at it, the more I think SageTV is forcing DXVA to not use Inverse Telecine, and shutting off the more advanced hardware deinterlacing features.

Looking closely at the results of even my n210, I can now see some field blending going on -- it just seems Nvidia is better (even with the n210 being as underpowered as it is) at deinterlacing 1080i without IVTC than ATI hardware/drivers. I was so excited to see smooth, relatively sharp 1080i video in SageTV, but, comparing the results of SageTV w/n210 playing 1080i against WMP, I can see that WMP is still better - especially in pans.

This still points to a SageTV problem.

[panteragstk]

I have a similar problem with 1080i content. It goes away when I use overlay. the arcsoft decoders work the best for me in vmr9 mode. Running xp not 7 though.

[brainbone]

Are you able to get the same 1080i content looking good outside of SageTV in XP?

Give GraphStudio a shot, and see if you can build a graph that works well.

Try: 1080i Mpeg file -> SageTV MpegDemux --> SageTV MPEG2 decoder --> VMR9.

In the "SageTV MPEG2 decoder properties" (right click, select properties), set: Deinterlace: VMR; Condition of deinterlace: interlaced frames; and Hardware acceleration: on/enabled.

In Vista/7, this graph works well (but using EVR instead of VMR9).

[babgvant]

Are you using the Sage MPEG decoder for playback? If so, that could be the issue.

I've used Cyberlink's, the MS one in VMC and 7MC, and the AVIVO (not DXVA2, but best CC support) mpeg decoders with 1080i captures with very good results on ATI (3650, 780G, 4650), Nvidia (8600GT), and Intel (G45) hardware.

[brainbone]

I've tried just about every codec when testing, including MS, Cyberlink, etc.

I think it's pretty clear cut: I can get it working perfectly outside of SageTV. This is a SageTV problem. What about your ATI platform is masking the issue, I don't know, but I would have to guess that there are issues you may just not be seeing (My wife, for example, is not bothered by the bad quality 1080i video -- my daughter and I are driven crazy by it).

After the amount of testing I've done, I have a hard time swallowing the "everything is great here in 1080i on ATI hardware" I've been seeing. I remember an argument here not too long ago where many didn't mind and couldn't tell the difference in the down sampling of 1080i to 720p on the HD PVR, if you set it to do so -- yet there certainly is a very noticeable difference.

Nvidia and Intel hardware/drivers seem to be able to cope better with SageTV's settings. I have yet to get ATI to do it well -- but, again, since it CAN work well outside of SageTV, this points to a SageTV issue.

Edit:
For those that have good quality 1080i using ATI hardware;
Where are you 1080i captures from (what tuner hardware)
For those that have bad quality video with ATI, same question.

Mine is from an HVR-2250, using QAM.

[Wirenut]

I have an ATI HD4870 and an HDHR with clear QAM stuff on NBC at 1080i, I've noticed the crappy de-interlacing on wide pans. The PQ is excellent other than pans. No one notices except me at our house. I have Catalyst 9.11 and have set it for Vector Adaptive de-interlacing, but I've tried everything and each and every driver. Makes me appreciate the HD200, but I have a local client on the server for our main theatre room... and maybe it's that I'm too picky.... but again... it works in MPC and WMP just fine on the pans.... only Sage seems to screw it up. I'm on XP and have dxva working with VMR9... maybe I should try the overlay again... but that didn't work nice on our system. I have tried all the decoders as well... and the ATI seems to work the best for me with HD... the Purevideo I used for years until the jump to HD.... I dunno... I'm still looking for the PQ to be the ultimate. My Sony 120hz bravia looks great using WMP or directly from the tuner onboard...

It's kinda hard for me, 'cause I'm the only one who sees the picture error in our house... but once you notice it, you can't miss it.

Wirenut

[brainbone]

The developers do appear to be looking into this issue, but I have no idea where it is on their priority list, or when to expect a resolution. (read as: If you are having this issue, send a detailed support request - it may help increase the priority).

If you are in a hurry and just can't stand the quality, I suggest picking up a more recent Nvidia card. The N210 was cheap, but I did need to overclock its RAM and GPU a bit to get good 1080i out of it in SageTV. The N210 is really a bit too low-end for a HTPC -- you wont be able to use any of Nvidias image quality enhancements (noise reduction, edge enhancement, color correction, etc.) with it, since you can't set different profiles for HD and SD. (I realize now that I should have put that information in the first post, as it may sound like I'm suggesting a N210).

Windows 7 may be required to get quality video even out of an Nvidia card. I haven't used XP on a HTPC for awhile now, so I really can't comment on it.

[Oats]

I just switched from a MediaMVP to a PC based client. Right now I'm using EVR with everything else set to default on Win7 with an 8800GT since I haven't had time to mess with it.

How do I get the MS decoder? I have no option for it in Sage. Is this because I uninstalled 7MC?

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by Oats

How do I get the MS decoder? I have no option for it in Sage. Is this because I uninstalled 7MC?

Others will say to install the "Native Recording" patches -- for me they caused instability when seeking, so I'd stay clear of it, unless you absolutely need it.

To add Microsoft Decoder support (without the Native Recording Patch):
1) Close SageTV
2) Edit your sagetvclient.properties file in C:\Users\[name_of_user]\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\SageTV\SageTV, and add/edit the following lines:

videoframe/additional_video_filters=Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder
videoframe/h264_video_decoder_filter=Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder

To disable Windows Media Center in W7MC (if you need to), look here:
http://mymce.wordpress.com/2009/11/0...-media-center/

[dcardellini]

Originally Posted by Wirenut

I have an ATI HD4870 and an HDHR with clear QAM stuff on NBC at 1080i, I've noticed the crappy de-interlacing on wide pans. ..........

As I, too, am struggling with ATI and XP currently, your predicament is shared by me. As soon as I see a clear path with Win7, I will move on, but not until it looks like I can do everything I need to at quality levels I expect.

For now...... Do you have a cpu that is at least two cores and 2.2ghz? If so, try turning off the DXVA and see what happens on those problematic wide pans. For me, even from 3200/4200 IGP to the 4670 discrete, I HAD to turn off DXVA to get stutter-free pans.

You didn't mention your mpeg2 codec, but after playing with sagetv mpeg2, nVidia Purevideo mpeg2, cyberlink sp mpeg2, and something from MPC (I forget), the cyberlink was the ONLY one that could truly give me great-always results on the 3200/4200 IGP with DXVA turned OFF.

Once there, I did put the 4670 discrete in and turned the Cyberlink decoder DXVA back on. Low and behold...the stuttering on certain pans came back.

Originally Posted by Wirenut

.....It's kinda hard for me, 'cause I'm the only one who sees the picture error in our house... but once you notice it, you can't miss it...........
Wirenut

Times are changing. Six years ago, not many people had big-screen TV's with a cable/satellite box feeding high-def material. Friends/family would see the cool thing you have done and ooow and ahhhh.

Today, if you are over 30, most people you know probably have a big screen being fed HD material from cable/Sat/OTA. Their eyes are "used to" a quality experience. Watch a basketball game on your big screen with the stuttering on pans, and friends are asking" "WTF is that?" Embarrassing.

Personally, I can live with an occasional glitch, pixellation, etc. But the stuttering kills me....

It is encouraging to see like-minded folks like you and Brainbone demanding more. I have been lurking here for years and know there are some really smart folks in this space...guys I really respect.

Why aren't there massive complaints about the lack of a "reference" minimal system that can playback everything that the HD200 can at same quality level? Maybe many people just use SageTV at their desktop and only occassionally watch privately. Maybe those with big screens (>50") use it privately or family does not have high expectations from consumer quality STB or OTA-HD. Maybe there is a secret forum corner that I don't know about that has the secret sauce for a PC Client.

....ok..ranting again......sorry.

[Oats]

Originally Posted by brainbone

Others will say to install the "Native Recording" patches -- for me they caused instability when seeking, so I'd stay clear of it, unless you absolutely need it.

To add Microsoft Decoder support (without the Native Recording Patch):
1) Close SageTV
2) Edit your sagetvclient.properties file in C:\Users\[name_of_user]\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\SageTV\SageTV, and add/edit the following lines:

videoframe/additional_video_filters=Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder
videoframe/h264_video_decoder_filter=Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder

To disable Windows Media Center in W7MC (if you need to), look here:
http://mymce.wordpress.com/2009/11/0...-media-center/

Thanks, after a little testing it appears when I chose default it uses the MS decoder. With default my CPU usage is 4-14%, with SageTV it is 20%+, and when using MS it is 4-14%. I'm installing the Nvidia PureVideo decoder too.