Calling all Network Whizzes!!!! Network problem with HDHR

[srothwell]

Help! I have a need for a network guru!

I recently re-installed Sage on windows 7. I have 1x PVR-250 and 2xHDHR with my Sage setup.

I have the 2xHDHomeRuns on a private Gig-E switch which goes into a second NIC on my server (static IP of 169.254.4.1). The first NIC is where the rest of the house is connected (static IP of 192.168.1.50).

On XP, the world was a happy place. The HDHR LAN minded its own business and the home LAN minded its business. the two never met.

Now under windows 7, I'm noticing my internet connection is timing out all the time. I did a Tracert and found that at least every other time the system wants to go to the internet it actually ends up going to the HDHR LAN to look for the internet instead of the first NIC.

Somehow these two LANs seem to be connected in the server (they certainly aren't physically connected). Win7 does not have the brigded by accident.

also, as is typical with Win Vista/7 the HDHR network shows up as PUBLIC and I had to change a bunch of firewall settings just to get the darn HDHR to be seen.

Can anyone help me with this? I really want to keep Win7 becuase of the possibility of doing CableCard stuff later and don't want to go back to XP, but this is almost getting too frustrating!

Thanks!

[gplasky]

Why not change the IP of the second NIC to a 192.168.1.x address and just bridge the network. The traffic still stays isolated and Win & shouldn't see it as a public network anymore. You could change it back to home network and not worry about the firewall settings.

Gerry

[Fuzzy]

I'd second Gerry's suggestion.. No reason to split the networks logically. All that does is complicate matters, by giving your PC two IP's.

[Thomas Wischgol]

Using the same network segment for the connection to the HDHR and bridging it probably defeats the purpose to some extent as all traffic then may go through both network cards. There is no technical reason why your initial setup would not work in Windows 7. It probably just sets up the routing table a little different, which gives you the problems you are experiencing. If you open a command shell and type "route PRINT", what are you getting? The important parts are the default gateway (which should point to the IP address of your router) and the entries for 192.168.1.0 and 169.254.4.0 (the last two may have zeros as the last two entries if the netmask is 255.255.0.0 instead of 255.255.255.0).

Thomas

[gplasky]

Only 1 of those NICs can have a default gateway. You're now talking about configuring those 2 NICs for routing which overcomplicates everything.


Each network card has a switch at each end. The switch knows where the packets need to go and the traffic would still stay segemented. The only way traffic would go from one card to the other would be if the HDHRs had to go out to the Internet. The only time that would occur is if you enabled deugging for the HDHRs. Other than that there is no device on one NIC that needs to talk to a device on the other NIC. They only need to talk to the server.



Gerry

[srothwell]

Originally Posted by Thomas Wischgol

Using the same network segment for the connection to the HDHR and bridging it probably defeats the purpose to some extent as all traffic then may go through both network cards. There is no technical reason why your initial setup would not work in Windows 7. It probably just sets up the routing table a little different, which gives you the problems you are experiencing. If you open a command shell and type "route PRINT", what are you getting? The important parts are the default gateway (which should point to the IP address of your router) and the entries for 192.168.1.0 and 169.254.4.0 (the last two may have zeros as the last two entries if the netmask is 255.255.0.0 instead of 255.255.255.0).

Thomas

Here what came back:

C:\Users\rothwells>route print
===========================================================================
Interface List
 13...90 e6 ba 4f e8 60 ......Marvell Yukon 88E8056 PCI-E Gigabit Ethernet Co
oller
 11...90 e6 ba 4f ed d4 ......Marvell Yukon 88E8001/8003/8010 PCI Gigabit Eth
et Controller
  1...........................Software Loopback Interface 1
 12...00 00 00 00 00 00 00 e0 Microsoft ISATAP Adapter
 14...00 00 00 00 00 00 00 e0 Microsoft ISATAP Adapter #2
 15...00 00 00 00 00 00 00 e0 Teredo Tunneling Pseudo-Interface
===========================================================================

IPv4 Route Table
===========================================================================
Active Routes:
Network Destination        Netmask          Gateway       Interface  Metric
          0.0.0.0          0.0.0.0         On-link       169.254.4.1    266
          0.0.0.0          0.0.0.0      192.168.1.1     192.168.1.50    266
        127.0.0.0        255.0.0.0         On-link         127.0.0.1    306
        127.0.0.1  255.255.255.255         On-link         127.0.0.1    306
  127.255.255.255  255.255.255.255         On-link         127.0.0.1    306
      169.254.0.0      255.255.0.0         On-link       169.254.4.1    266
      169.254.4.1  255.255.255.255         On-link       169.254.4.1    266
  169.254.255.255  255.255.255.255         On-link       169.254.4.1    266
      192.168.1.0    255.255.255.0         On-link      192.168.1.50    266
     192.168.1.50  255.255.255.255         On-link      192.168.1.50    266
    192.168.1.255  255.255.255.255         On-link      192.168.1.50    266
        224.0.0.0        240.0.0.0         On-link         127.0.0.1    306
        224.0.0.0        240.0.0.0         On-link       169.254.4.1    266
        224.0.0.0        240.0.0.0         On-link      192.168.1.50    266
  255.255.255.255  255.255.255.255         On-link         127.0.0.1    306
  255.255.255.255  255.255.255.255         On-link       169.254.4.1    266
  255.255.255.255  255.255.255.255         On-link      192.168.1.50    266
===========================================================================
Persistent Routes:
  Network Address          Netmask  Gateway Address  Metric
          0.0.0.0          0.0.0.0      169.254.4.1  Default
          0.0.0.0          0.0.0.0      192.168.1.1  Default
===========================================================================

IPv6 Route Table
===========================================================================
Active Routes:
 If Metric Network Destination      Gateway
  1    306 ::1/128                  On-link
 11    266 fe80::/64                On-link
 11    266 fe80::c1d8:7eac:5760:cbc6/128
                                    On-link
  1    306 ff00::/8                 On-link
 11    266 ff00::/8                 On-link
===========================================================================
Persistent Routes:
  None

The gateway for the house's LAN is 192.168.1.1.

Even Sage says it wants to use the 169 address as the Placeshifter, which is obviously wrong!

I'm not going to be claiming to be a routing expert here :-) But my goal is to keep ALL the HDHR traffic off of the house's main LAN, hence the two difference NICs and switches.

Do you see anything I need to do here?

thanks EVERYONE for the help!

[paulbeers]

I hate to be a naysayer here, but why are you trying to keep the HDHomerun traffic off your house network? If everything is gigabit, then even recording 4 streams at 1080i (using all 4 tuners), you would only be using approx 80mbps leaving you 920mbps left! Even the fastest mechanical hard drives on the market (not SSD's) can only accomplish sustained writes of about 80MBps's (or 640mbps). I fail to see why in a home setting, people try to create two networks with their HDHomeruns. Now, if you were just running 100mbps networks, that would make sense, but seriously gb? You aren't even going to notice a slow down even if you were recording 4 streams at once.

Instead all you have done is create headaches for yourself and you run the risk of more issues down the road....

[srothwell]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

I hate to be a naysayer here, but why are you trying to keep the HDHomerun traffic off your house network? If everything is gigabit, then even recording 4 streams at 1080i (using all 4 tuners), you would only be using approx 80mbps leaving you 920mbps left! Even the fastest mechanical hard drives on the market (not SSD's) can only accomplish sustained writes of about 80MBps's (or 640mbps). I fail to see why in a home setting, people try to create two networks with their HDHomeruns. Now, if you were just running 100mbps networks, that would make sense, but seriously gb? You aren't even going to notice a slow down even if you were recording 4 streams at once.

Instead all you have done is create headaches for yourself and you run the risk of more issues down the road....

Thanks for the feedback. What I'm really curious about is this didn't happen on XP, this seems to be new to Win7. I never seemed to have any routing issues on XP.

However, the reason I want to keep the newtorks separate is this machine is also the home's file server. I do a lot of 3D animation work and routinely send 100's of gigabytes over the LAN to other machines for a render farm. THAT plus the 4 tunes would be more likely to cause an issue -- maybe not all the time, but I just want to avoid it.

I'm not sure what headaches down the road I would have as this machine wil always be used for this purpose. If I decide to repurpose it later the worst I would have to do is reinstall Windows again for a completely fresh start.

But, please understand, I do value and respect your opinion.

That being said, is there something I can do, seeing the routing table above, that can segregate these NICs? Heck even just tall the computer, ANYHTING that's going outside to the internet should use 192.168.1.50 and not the other IP?

thanks

[DigitalMan]

You've created a bunch of threads trying to solve this problem, but it seems you don't understand what folks are trying to tell you.

I offered a few solutions to your network issues a few days ago, did you try any of them?

[srothwell]

Originally Posted by DigitalMan

You've created a bunch of threads trying to solve this problem, but it seems you don't understand what folks are trying to tell you.

I offered a few solutions to your network issues a few days ago, did you try any of them?

yes I did (except for going out and buying another router - trying to avoid buying another router). All that ended up happening is that all the HDHR traffic ended up being sent on my house's LAN, which is what I was trying to avoid.

As I look at the Route data that I posted it just looks like, for some reason, windows is trying the HDHR LAN *before* it's trying the home LAN with the internet/router on it.

I wonder if its as simple as finding a route statement that says to look at one ip first for a gateway?

Obviously I don't know much about routing...... :-)

[carlgar]

First of all you need to simplify your network by getting rid of that class B (169.254.4.1) network. No home user needs a class B. Just use another Class C number like 192.168.2.X. This will still allow you to have 2 seperate networks. If you chose you could bridge then to look like one if you need to in the future.

I suspect your primary problem is the first 2 entries in the routing table:
Network Destination Netmask Gateway Interface Metric
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 On-link 169.254.4.1 266
0.0.0.0 0.0.0.0 192.168.1.1 192.168.1.50 266

I don't know why the netmask is zero, that would match everything which is probably what is causing the issue.

I would also question the following entries:
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 127.0.0.1 306
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 169.254.4.1 266
224.0.0.0 240.0.0.0 On-link 192.168.1.50 266
But this may be a bridge that you set up between the Class B and Class C networks. I don't think it is causing any problems.

[Fuzzy]

Have you tried running bridged? it WILL keep the traffic segmented, but still allow everything to function normally. Ethernet is not just a single buss where every bit of data is routed to every node. It is a switched network. If your HDHR only needs to get from itself to the server, it's going to do it in just the single hop. It will not go out onto your house LAN. Having the networks bridged basically turns the pair of network cards into another network switch. If traffic needs to get from one net to the other, it is routed.. if it doesn't, it isn't.

[david1234]

Originally Posted by srothwell

However, the reason I want to keep the newtorks separate is this machine is also the home's file server. I do a lot of 3D animation work and routinely send 100's of gigabytes over the LAN to other machines for a render farm. THAT plus the 4 tunes would be more likely to cause an issue -- maybe not all the time, but I just want to avoid it.

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Ethernet is not just a single buss where every bit of data is routed to every node. It is a switched network. If your HDHR only needs to get from itself to the server, it's going to do it in just the single hop. It will not go out onto your house LAN.

I think that you're over-thinking your network. Like Fuzzy mentions, your switch makes it unlikely you could max out your network. You have to keep in mind that it's a gigabit per link, not for the entire network. If it were me, I'd get rid of the second network.

What your trying to do is troubleshoot a problem that doesn't exist, and you've created a network that is more complicated because of it.

[srothwell]

Thank you to everyone who gave advice.

I will try the bridging suggestion in the next coupleof days when Sage can be turned off (wife hates when server goes down!)

BTW... the reason for the Class B IP address is that's what the folks at Silicon Dust (HDHR) tech support told me to do about 6 months ago when I bought the additional HDHR and needed to network them together. They suggested putting on a separate NIC with that IP address.

So, when I bridge them together they will automatically have the same gateway, right? The reason I ask is becuase I had someone else suggest that I give the HDHR network the same same gateway as the house LAN in an attempt to placate Win7 into calling the HDHR LAN a private LAN. It didn't work and I got a big warning from Win7 when I tried to do that.

Thanks again for the help! I will post with my results....

Happy Thanksgiving!