CableCard OEM Restriction Lifted!!!

[sleonard]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Not so much around here ...

That's just the thing most people don't understand, enthusiasts really don't drive technology. It's the mass market that drives technology, enthusiasts just buy in early and buy the few targeted niche products geared towards us.

If enthusiasts really drove things whole-house DVR systems would be common place. There'd be common solutions for legally building DVD and Blu-ray libraries. We wouldn't have Pan & Scan DVDs. Networks wouldn't crop and P&S movies for TV. SACD and DVD-Audio would be alive an well.

Make no mistake, while there are products targeted at enthusiasts, it's the masses that drive things. The real money in the market is in the selling millions of products to the masses, not thousands or tens of thousands to the enthusiasts.
...

Typical mass market consumer:

MMC: "I got an X52 digital VCR thingy from my cableco. I can watch reality shows whenever I want. I can pause them when I need to take a leak too. How cool is that!"

Enthusiast: "Actually, It's a Digital Video Recorder, and the cableco puts a lot of restrictions on what you can do with it. For example, you can't blah, blah.

MMC: "What! How dare they. I'm going to call my ... Ooh look, Monster Trucks are coming next month."


S

[samgreco]

Originally Posted by sleonard

Typical mass market consumer:

MMC: "I got an X52 digital VCR thingy from my cableco. I can watch reality shows whenever I want. I can pause them when I need to take a leak too. How cool is that!"

Enthusiast: "Actually, It's a Digital Video Recorder, and the cableco puts a lot of restrictions on what you can do with it. For example, you can't blah, blah.

MMC: "What! How dare they. I'm going to call my ... Ooh look, Monster Trucks are coming next month."


S

That nailed it!

[panteragstk]

Ok, Fuzzy and stanger (as always) pointed out the flaws in my argument. That is one of the many reasons I love this forum and sage. I'm always learning something.

Yes, much of what I said is massive speculation, but I still think that the way we view TV is going to change.

Yes, cable has converted to fiber networks, but as stanger pointed out if the house is still coax it doesn't do much good. I still think cramming all programming into "one transport" is dated. Tuning to the channel you are requesting only will save lots of bandwidth.

When I said we drive technology, I should have said we discover and implement it first. I remember buying the first gen cd burners and then dvd burners. Now they are commonplace in every computer. That is the kind of thing I mean when I said we drive technology.

I still think the next few years will be interesting for us htpc enthusiasts. This development does make things quite interesting, but I think there will be a few new developments this coming year for us.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

Yes, cable has converted to fiber networks, but as stanger pointed out if the house is still coax it doesn't do much good. I still think cramming all programming into "one transport" is dated. Tuning to the channel you are requesting only will save lots of bandwidth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_video

I still think the next few years will be interesting for us htpc enthusiasts. This development does make things quite interesting, but I think there will be a few new developments this coming year for us.

Like?

[fyodor]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

Actually the ati cards at least are reconized as network tuners and i have used a lan usb adapter on one in the past. I am hoping cetons external model will be reconized the same way.

How was it networked? 10/100 or gigabit? How was your experience with it? I'd vaguely been wondering if something like this would work since I don't have any free slots on my SFF PC and I don't want to clutter the area with USB gear.

[limiter]

I have a few comments and instead of replying several times I'm just dumping it all in one post.

First, Brent, you mentioned the HDFury2 which I almost bought because I'm convinced component will be disabled on cable boxes in the next few years; it has started in Europe, and the MPAA is making a big push here. I read that the HDFury2's HDCP string could be black listed making the device useless. You have any insight into this?

Second, I know the die hard SageTV fans see little reason for cable card with the HD-PVR, but the reality for me is the HD-PVR is a messy solution. Not even talking about reliability, you need a HD-PVR and a cable box, component cables for every input which means cable box fees, and in my area they have $7.95 per month "Digital Outlet Fee" on top of each of the box's fees. 1 M-Card means no box fee, and 1 digital outlet fee for multiple tuners. The day the analog hole is turned off is the day the HD-PVR becomes a paper weight unless the HDFury2 avoids being HDCP blacklisted, but that is another $150 per tuner and even talking about it on the forums might violate SageTV's terms of service.

Third, since Sage has already gotten into the Hardware game with the HD100 and HD200, maybe a cable-card SageTV server box similar to a Tivo or a Moxi could be in their future, but instead of relying on monthly fees for income like Tivo they could do one-time cost. Instead of a closed system like Moxi they could open it up to the plugins we have in SageTV right now and user expandable drive space. We know they have the linux Sage software for this and they have the hardware design from the HD200... combine the two for a hardware server with CableCard support.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by limiter

I have a few comments and instead of replying several times I'm just dumping it all in one post.

First, Brent, you mentioned the HDFury2 which I almost bought because I'm convinced component will be disabled on cable boxes in the next few years; it has started in Europe, and the MPAA is making a big push here. I read that the HDFury2's HDCP string could be black listed making the device useless. You have any insight into this?

It is of course, theoretically possible (ie the functionality exists to blacklist devices). The big unknown is what keys the HD Fury is using. If it's using an HDCP chip/keys that are used in some other, very common device, it's basically impossible for to blacklist it, because doing so would break a bunch of legitimate devices.

I have no idea of that's what happened, but it is a logical possibility, because the HD Fury shouldn't really be able to have been HDCP licensed.

Second, I know the die hard SageTV fans see little reason for cable card with the HD-PVR, but the reality for me is the HD-PVR is a messy solution.

Oh, we see the reason, we just question if it's worth it. Cablecard is a Trojan Horse for DRM and restricted usage (yeah, I know that's not the best analogy).

Not even talking about reliability, you need a HD-PVR and a cable box, component cables for every input which means cable box fees, and in my area they have $7.95 per month "Digital Outlet Fee" on top of each of the box's fees. 1 M-Card means no box fee, and 1 digital outlet fee for multiple tuners.

Nobody with cable seems to think about this, since they make using STBs out to being the end of the world, but everybody using Sage with DirecTV or Dish Network has been using STBs and the associated "mess" and cost for years.

And really, I think we may well see a complete replacement (or the ability to replace it) by the time we really need to worry about the "analog hole" being closed. Many people are dumping cable and Sat today in favor of OTA and internet VOD (Hulu, Netflix, etc). These services and those like them will only grow and expand over the next few years. It's entirely possible that by the time the analog hole is closed, we won't even need to record from a linear TV provider.

Third, since Sage has already gotten into the Hardware game with the HD100 and HD200, maybe a cable-card SageTV server box similar to a Tivo or a Moxi could be in their future, but instead of relying on monthly fees for income like Tivo they could do one-time cost. Instead of a closed system like Moxi they could open it up to the plugins we have in SageTV right now and user expandable drive space.

What's the point though. CableCard has seriously strict content protection requirements. So much so that IMO Sage could be neutered to such a point as to little functionally different than a Multi-room Moxi system.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by stanger89

What's the point though. CableCard has seriously strict content protection requirements. So much so that IMO Sage could be neutered to such a point as to little functionally different than a Multi-room Moxi system.

you are overstating a bit here it still will have relaxed drm meaning all locals (80%) of what most people what can still be commercial skipped and such.

[ghostlobster]

We really need to be careful about statements regarding the upcoming CableCARD DRM scheme here. To say unequivically that the DRM restrictions placed on CableCARD recordings will be crippling is pure speculation and really needs to be documented as such. The fact is that we do not KNOW what the new relaxed DRM scheme will be. It has not been documented anywhere (that I've seen) and all we know is that the current ridiculous restrictions WILL be relaxed with the next ATI firmware, due in conjunction with Win7.
So saying that DRM restrictions are the primary reason that you will not be switching to CableCARD is committing to an uninformed decision, and implying bad information to less informed people who might be reading these forums to make decisions.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

you are overstating a bit here it still will have relaxed drm meaning all locals (80%) of what most people what can still be commercial skipped and such.

That really depends though doesn't it? You are implying that only the CableCard recordings would have DRM, what if Sage is required to DRM everything (like WMC/VMC) in order be certified to even have CableCard? This is obviously purely speculation on my part as I don't know enough about the certification process nor do I honest care since I am a Dish Network Subscriber and will never go back!

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by ghostlobster

So saying that DRM restrictions are the primary reason that you will not be switching to CableCARD is committing to an uninformed decision, and implying bad information to less informed people who might be reading these forums to make decisions.

Hold on, I don't think anyone is saying that is the ONLY reason they don't want it. In fact the main reason against CableCard is the cost of certification and the fact that many of us aren't on Cable so it wouldn't even be a solution for many of us! If I am not mistaken it isn't that the DRM requirement is being lifted, it is that they are no longer tying the CableCard to OEM's who have paid to have their hardware certified. We will now be able to buy a CableCard adapter and drop it into any home brew machine.

Someone tell me if I am missing the boat here....

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

Hold on, I don't think anyone is saying that is the ONLY reason they don't want it. In fact the main reason against CableCard is the cost of certification and the fact that many of us aren't on Cable so it wouldn't even be a solution for many of us! If I am not mistaken it isn't that the DRM requirement is being lifted, it is that they are no longer tying the CableCard to OEM's who have paid to have their hardware certified. We will now be able to buy a CableCard adapter and drop it into any home brew machine.

Someone tell me if I am missing the boat here....

you are wrong The DRM is being modified. To respect the flags so anything marked with no restrictions (ie locals and other channels) are drm free. The only thing with strict drm will be the stuff flagged copy never. Which from my testing is usually hbo and the likes.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by ghostlobster

We really need to be careful about statements regarding the upcoming CableCARD DRM scheme here. To say unequivically that the DRM restrictions placed on CableCARD recordings will be crippling is pure speculation and really needs to be documented as such. The fact is that we do not KNOW what the new relaxed DRM scheme will be. It has not been documented anywhere (that I've seen) and all we know is that the current ridiculous restrictions WILL be relaxed with the next ATI firmware, due in conjunction with Win7.
So saying that DRM restrictions are the primary reason that you will not be switching to CableCARD is committing to an uninformed decision, and implying bad information to less informed people who might be reading these forums to make decisions.

But we do know what they will be it will respect the copyright flags anyone with a tivohd has the same capabilites. Basically anything they can copy to the tivo desktop software is marked copy freely and those same channels will be without drm on the media center pc.

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by ghostlobster

To say unequivically that the DRM restrictions placed on CableCARD recordings will be crippling is pure speculation and really needs to be documented as such. The fact is that we do not KNOW what the new relaxed DRM scheme will be. It has not been documented anywhere (that I've seen) and all we know is that the current ridiculous restrictions WILL be relaxed with the next ATI firmware, due in conjunction with Win7.

Actually I don't think that it's unreasonable to assume that if a system requires DRM then it will "crippling", and i certainly don't think it's uninformed. If you can show me 1 drm scheme that isn't crippling, then maybe I can change my mind, but the the whole point of DRM is to prevent you from doing what you want with your media... i think that's crippling.

So saying that DRM restrictions are the primary reason that you will not be switching to CableCARD is committing to an uninformed decision, and implying bad information to less informed people who might be reading these forums to make decisions.

Again, I'd have to disagree... I have no issues stating that I would not switch to CableCard (if it were offered in my area) simply because of the DRM. I have never purchased a single track of music from iTunes because of DRM (I've since changed my mind, because the drm has been removed). I wouldn't purchase a DVD if I couldn't rip it... and I've only recently began purchasing bluray titles because I can rip them using AnyDVDHD.... I don't think it uninformed... and personally, I think that if people really care about DRM, or the lack of it, then the best statement you can send is to NOT use it.

The problem with "relaxed DRM" is that it's doesn't exist. While you may get some recordings today that are DRM free... you are at the whim of the content provider to "enable" the drm flag and all future content may not record. So while the "relaxed DRM" may sound too good to be true... it probably is...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

you are overstating a bit here it still will have relaxed drm meaning all locals (80%) of what most people what can still be commercial skipped and such.

Well 95% of what I watch is NOT on locals.

Originally Posted by ghostlobster

We really need to be careful about statements regarding the upcoming CableCARD DRM scheme here. To say unequivically that the DRM restrictions placed on CableCARD recordings will be crippling is pure speculation and really needs to be documented as such.

Well of course, I didn't think it was necessary to include the disclaimer, but I guess I should have included it:

Disclosure: Forward-Looking Statements

Some of the information in this post may contain projections or other forward-looking statements regarding future events or the future restrictions on CableCard recordings. We wish to caution you that these statements are only predictions and that actual events or results may differ materially.

The fact is that we do not KNOW what the new relaxed DRM scheme will be. It has not been documented anywhere (that I've seen) and all we know is that the current ridiculous restrictions WILL be relaxed with the next ATI firmware, due in conjunction with Win7.

I don't know, I think it's pretty clear. Content marked "Copy Freely" should be recorded DRM free, basically the same way DTCP is supposed to work. Yet we have years of experience with DTCP that shows us that very, very little is allowed to be recorded without protection, regardless of how it "should" work.

So saying that DRM restrictions are the primary reason that you will not be switching to CableCARD is committing to an uninformed decision, and implying bad information to less informed people who might be reading these forums to make decisions.

The primary reason is that I will not go back to the craptacular cable we have here. You can pry my dish out of my cold dead hands.

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

you are wrong The DRM is being modified. To respect the flags so anything marked with no restrictions (ie locals and other channels) are drm free. The only thing with strict drm will be the stuff flagged copy never. Which from my testing is usually hbo and the likes.

Yeah, and we can see how well that worked out with Firewire/DTCP. Which is supposed to work the same.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Nobody with cable seems to think about this, since they make using STBs out to being the end of the world, but everybody using Sage with DirecTV or Dish Network has been using STBs and the associated "mess" and cost for years.

It is sort of messy though. It's perfectly possible to do, but there are issues with both digital cable and satellite systems that haven't been resolved perfectly. There's still the cost issue, which will never go away. There's the channel changing issue, of which there's a variety of decent current solutions. But, not everyone can do firewire or serial channel changing, and with FireSTB being half abandoned, there's no guarantee it will remain an option. IR blasting pretty much always works, but it slower and less reliable. Plus, there are lingering threats to reliability. The system updates issue is one example, although my understanding is that's mostly resolved by using 'Enter' as a prefix. I've noticed my STB has shut off by itself before, although I haven't missed any recordings as a result. There are probably other examples that have come up over the years, and there will almost certainly be more.

In general, STB recording has been more pleasant and reliable than I thought it would, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't rather use a cable card.

And really, I think we may well see a complete replacement (or the ability to replace it) by the time we really need to worry about the "analog hole" being closed.

I think you're probably right about this one. Perhaps PPV, and maybe even premiums like HBO and the like, will be downconverted for analog outputs in the moderately near future, but I really don't think we're going to see that with anything else before things like streaming internet video become mainstream.

What's the point though. CableCard has seriously strict content protection requirements. So much so that IMO Sage could be neutered to such a point as to little functionally different than a Multi-room Moxi system.

I think that's a bit extreme. For starters, I have all kinds of SageTV-related equipment that I've already invested in, so I'm not inclined to spent $1-2k on a Moxi system. Beyond that, you don't have quite the same expansion capabilities in a Moxi system as in Sage, or the audio/video streaming abilities.

I don't think cable card and DRM support are really things Sage could do, but in a sort of ideal world I think it could be done in a way that wouldn't significantly disrupt my usage. Just getting extender support is about 90% of it. I'm not entirely convinced placeshifting is out of the question, not that I do it much anymore anyway. Automatic commercial skipping would be a loss, but I don't think I would miss it terribly. I sometimes turn that off already when I get fed up with it marking commercials incorrectly.

[ghostlobster]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Well of course, I didn't think it was necessary to include the disclaimer, but I guess I should have included it:

Disclosure: Forward-Looking Statements

Some of the information in this post may contain projections or other forward-looking statements regarding future events or the future restrictions on CableCard recordings. We wish to caution you that these statements are only predictions and that actual events or results may differ materially.

Hilarious! Point made!
I just get bent out of shape when speculation is spouted as gospel. I don't doubt that there sill be some limiting DRM restrictions placed on the upcoming solution, and it very well might force me not even look at it, but I want to see it play out. If it turns out that it's only on the premium channels (HBO, Showtime, etc) than I can live with it as I don't even get those channels. But, if it spills over into SyFy, ESPNHD, Discovery, and other mid-tier channels, than that'll be an issue and will pretty much mean that absolutely nothing has changed, in my eyes.

[ghostlobster]

Originally Posted by stuckless

Actually I don't think that it's unreasonable to assume that if a system requires DRM then it will "crippling", and i certainly don't think it's uninformed. If you can show me 1 drm scheme that isn't crippling, then maybe I can change my mind, but the the whole point of DRM is to prevent you from doing what you want with your media... i think that's crippling.

Again, I'd have to disagree... I have no issues stating that I would not switch to CableCard (if it were offered in my area) simply because of the DRM. I have never purchased a single track of music from iTunes because of DRM (I've since changed my mind, because the drm has been removed). I wouldn't purchase a DVD if I couldn't rip it... and I've only recently began purchasing bluray titles because I can rip them using AnyDVDHD.... I don't think it uninformed... and personally, I think that if people really care about DRM, or the lack of it, then the best statement you can send is to NOT use it.

The problem with "relaxed DRM" is that it's doesn't exist. While you may get some recordings today that are DRM free... you are at the whim of the content provider to "enable" the drm flag and all future content may not record. So while the "relaxed DRM" may sound too good to be true... it probably is...

By uninformed what I meant was that we do not know what the facts are. now, the fact that you are that dead-set against anything DRM makes this an open/close case for you, so no information whatsoever is going to change your decision.
Perhaps I'm naïve, but I'm not all that uptight about it. I don't believe that the MPAA is going to jump onto my system and delete any recording of Eureka that's older than 3 weeks old, and then stop me from streaming this week's Fringe premier to my laptop while I'm having a cigar on the deck. Who knows, though. The entire industry is still recovering from the knee-jerk reaction to the Napster free-for-all of the late 90s-early 00s which resulted in the pendulum swinging just to the right of the Gestapo from a content protection standpoint. It's finally starting to come back to something that is more in line with the Fair Use act of the early-mid 80s which provides for individual convenience and rights as well content owner compensation. I'm very curious to see where it finally comes to rest and what event is going to kick it into one direction or another again.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stuckless

If you can show me 1 drm scheme that isn't crippling, then maybe I can change my mind...

Stream is basically a DRM scheme. I wouldn't call it "crippling". I quite like it over purchasing DVD/CD media. I think the biggest complaint against it is that you can't sell games you've previously purchased, but you're not technically suppose to do that with things like Sage either.

but the the whole point of DRM is to prevent you from doing what you want with your media... i think that's crippling.

Basically. I wouldn't quite put it that way. I think DRM is all about putting in artificial restrictions. Sure, that's a bit annoying, but the less technologically advanced version of that is non-artificial restrictions. Sure, it would have been nice to go nice, clean copies of VCR and cassette tapes, but you couldn't. Sure, it'd be nice to record the raw mpeg2/4 stream off of satellite, but you can't because they won't make any products to do it.

Maybe from a philosophical perspective I should more outraged, I don't know. But, I just don't see a huge difference form a user perspective between artificial restrictions intentionally built-in to products, and non-artificial restrictions created through the absence of functionality.

Of course, that doesn't mean that I'd buy things regardless of the DRM. I'm just going to make those decisions on a case-by-case basis.

The problem with "relaxed DRM" is that it's doesn't exist.

Meh, it depends on your definition of relaxed DRM. I think Steam fits the bill.

[lobosrul]

Another new device announced that has, up to, 6 tuners for Cable. Saw it linked on avsforum.

http://www.hometoys.com/hotstories/i...on=view&id=186

Would I ever purchase a device that has some sort of DRM built in? Depends on how easy it is to defeat. And make no mistake, if it can be viewed on a PC, streamed to another PC with SageTV or something like it, it can be defeated. But going back to the $100 Comcrap cable bills, not likely. I already feel a bit ripped off over my $40 satellite bill.