CableCard OEM Restriction Lifted!!!

[stuckless]

I wonder, out of all the users crying for cablecard support, who would be happy with sage, if the solution turned out to be a very restricted drm encumbered solution that auto deleted recordings after an expiry and prevented you from moving your recordings to other devices, etc.... ie a STB.

I don't think that I'd want to reward cable companies by ditching sage and going after a drm solution. Maybe someday, sage will have to incorperate some sort of drm... that is the day that I decide to leave the flock... until then, I'll continue to reward sage for resisting drm solutions while building a great, open, and flexible pvr system.

[PLUCKYHD]

I think Brent hit the nail on the head why you will not see cable card in Sage--money. Cablelabs certifiction is very very expensive. Hell when the OEM requirement was around I tried to get my company certified and even that was way to much money (glad I didn't now and would be pissed if I was an oem that just spent money getting my machine certified). Microsoft has poured more money into this than any of us want to imagine, but it is a drop in the barrel to them. Sage and smaller platforms don't have that kind of money to throw around. I don't think this will ever be "hacked". No the drm free recordings will probably play back just fine in sage but using the tuners in sage will never happen without a serious investment in time and money from sage.

I think sage will hang in there but if the mpaa ever gets the analog hole closed like they keep trying
http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/09/04...th-new-more-i/
Then that would make the hd-pvr usueless and sage would be in some serious trouble. As the r5000 model dish boxes have already stopped being produced so that option is closing fast for sattelite users.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by stuckless

I wonder, out of all the users crying for cablecard support, who would be happy with sage, if the solution turned out to be a very restricted drm encumbered solution that auto deleted recordings after an expiry and prevented you from moving your recordings to other devices, etc.... ie a STB.

I .

I agree with this (although you are a little far feached on the delete recordings that doesn't happen with cable card there is no expiry date), but in the end it comes down to being able to get the content. If some DRM is the only way it is the only way. HD is what I am about and the hd-pvr is not an ideal solution to me. The r5000 is but it is slowly dying out now that dish is not producing boxes capable of the mod anymore. It is a give and take. It may come down to OTA and QAM only for sage at some point and that is not enough for most (including myself).

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by stuckless

I wonder, out of all the users crying for cablecard support, who would be happy with sage, if the solution turned out to be a very restricted drm encumbered solution that auto deleted recordings after an expiry and prevented you from moving your recordings to other devices, etc.... ie a STB.

I don't think that I'd want to reward cable companies by ditching sage and going after a drm solution. Maybe someday, sage will have to incorperate some sort of drm... that is the day that I decide to leave the flock... until then, I'll continue to reward sage for resisting drm solutions while building a great, open, and flexible pvr system.

I agree have people forgotten about the errant prohibited recordings on MC that keep cropping up....
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/05/20...-doesnt-expla/

And rememember the DRM requirement has only been lifted for "Copy Freely" content, "Copy Once" content still requires DRM, and that could be everything depending on cable company. How many people are able to use Firewire for everything (everything is "Copy Freely")?

And then there's the crippled extenders and lack of PC client....

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

I think Brent hit the nail on the head why you will not see cable card in Sage--money. Cablelabs certifiction is very very expensive.

The one saving grace for Sage could be that since the OEM req is gone, they probably don't need to be certified anymore. Since the tuner does all the encrytion itself, Sage could be able to control the tuner without significant issue.

The stumbling block would be in implementing the PlayReady (or whateve it's called) DRM for protected recordings, which is counter to Jeff's goals of keeping SageTV DRM-free.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I agree have people forgotten about the errant prohibited recordings on MC that keep cropping up....
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/05/20...-doesnt-expla/

And rememember the DRM requirement has only been lifted for "Copy Freely" content, "Copy Once" content still requires DRM, and that could be everything depending on cable company. How many people are able to use Firewire for everything (everything is "Copy Freely")?

And then there's the crippled extenders and lack of PC client....


.

I don't think people have forgotten the prohibitied recordings mostly have only effect analog for some reason. I used cable cards for over a year and never had one issue with something not recording. I wish I could say that for hdpvr or r5000.

Firewire is different on the copy freely aspect as that is up to the cable company on encrypting firewire or not and most do (cox in my area doesn't send anything in the clear over firewire). Having used a tivohd there is actually quite a bit that is marked copy freely mostly hbo and the like are not.

[Fuzzy]

It all depends on what happens in the Microsoft camp. There IS DRM that would meet cablecard's requirements in Win7's Media Foundation framework, which would theoretically expose the card and media to any compatible recorder/player software. This would require an untouched path from tuner to hd on the recording side, as well as an untouched process on the playback side as well. There is nothing in Sage's architecture (outside the extenders) that would prohibit the playback of these files on the recording server, as long as they implement media foundation playback. There would have to be some determination of the feasibility of license transfer between server and clients. Extender support would be difficult though. It would basically require that the extender be implemented as a Media Framework Renderer, and that renderer get certified. If they could pull that off, they'd be my personal heroes. Not that I'd necessarily go to it, as long as my R-5000 is working, but it would definitely bring a level of 'consumerism' to the system.

I fear Linux and Mac implementations would be pretty hard to do though... (though Moxi DOES implement cablecard on it's linux based STB's... so perhaps some of this is potentially licensable)

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

It all depends on what happens in the Microsoft camp. There IS DRM that would meet cablecard's requirements in Win7's Media Foundation framework, which would theoretically expose the card and media to any compatible recorder/player software. This would require an untouched path from tuner to hd on the recording side, as well as an untouched process on the playback side as well. There is nothing in Sage's architecture (outside the extenders) that would prohibit the playback of these files on the recording server, as long as they implement media foundation playback. There would have to be some determination of the feasibility of license transfer between server and clients. Extender support would be difficult though. It would basically require that the extender be implemented as a Media Framework Renderer, and that renderer get certified. If they could pull that off, they'd be my personal heroes. Not that I'd necessarily go to it, as long as my R-5000 is working, but it would definitely bring a level of 'consumerism' to the system.

I fear Linux and Mac implementations would be pretty hard to do though...

Right but Sage would still have to pay to get their process certified which again is very very expensive and not the route sage wants to go.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

I
Firewire is different on the copy freely aspect as that is up to the cable company on encrypting firewire or not and most do (cox in my area doesn't send anything in the clear over firewire). Having used a tivohd there is actually quite a bit that is marked copy freely mostly hbo and the like are not.

In theory, 5C encryption is only suppose to be applied to things that aren't marked copy freely. That being said, when I go into my STB's diagnostic screen almost everything shows up copy freely (except HBO and the likes), yet for some reason I still can't record HistoryHD. I'm not sure what that means- if the diagnostic screen is reporting the wrong copy protections or if 5C is being applied to copy freely channels.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by reggie14

In theory, 5C encryption is only suppose to be applied to things that aren't marked copy freely. That being said, when I go into my STB's diagnostic screen almost everything shows up copy freely (except HBO and the likes), yet for some reason I still can't record HistoryHD. I'm not sure what that means- if the diagnostic screen is reporting the wrong copy protections or if 5C is being applied to copy freely channels.

In thoery but my cable operating applies it to everything on firewire.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by stanger89

....since the OEM req is gone, they probably don't need to be certified anymore. Since the tuner does all the encrytion itself, Sage could be able to control the tuner without significant issue.

The stumbling block would be in implementing the PlayReady (or whateve it's called) DRM for protected recordings, which is counter to Jeff's goals of keeping SageTV DRM-free.

They still have to get CableLabs Certification. I'm not sure if these changes make it any cheaper for someone like SageTV to do so - I just don't know.

I also wouldn't presume to say SageTV doesn't want to go down this path at some point. I personally doubt they would if the cost is really high, but you never know what they'll have up their sleeves.

[LehighBri]

It's amazing how much debate and excitement this topic has raised. To me, Sage should continue to take the "wait and see" approach and see how this all plays out and in the meantime, continue to embrace true next-gen stuff like Netflix support, streaming over extenders, etc.

In the meantime, HD-PVRs have been on sale like crazy lately (especially at Dell) and folks can probably get HD-PVRs up and running much cheaper than Cablecard.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by LehighBri

It's amazing how much debate and excitement this topic has raised. To me, Sage should continue to take the "wait and see" approach and see how this all plays out and in the meantime, continue to embrace true next-gen stuff like Netflix support, streaming over extenders, etc.

In the meantime, HD-PVRs have been on sale like crazy lately (especially at Dell) and folks can probably get HD-PVRs up and running much cheaper than Cablecard.

It is exciting. But remember dell has internal cable card tuners for list of $209 with coupons it gets cheaper. I think Sage is going in the right direction but they are not embracing the future of tv if they don't take some steps to get some external tuner support be it sattelite or cable or something besides reallying soly on hd-pvr/qam/ota for hd. I still think the analog hole will be closed may be a while but I don't think the mpaa will give up the fight until it is at least downconverted to 480p on component.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

Right but Sage would still have to pay to get their process certified which again is very very expensive and not the route sage wants to go.

That depends on whether the DRM will reside within media foundation or not. If it continues to require the use of PlayReady licensing (which isn't really designed for this scenario to begin with) then, yes, it would require PlayReady licensing ($50k+). However, it could also be shifted to using a media foundation based DRM scheme, which would avoid such licensing. Too much is yet unknown to determine this. (though i do hope Jeff is trying to keep up with what is happening).

Another option is the upcoming 'server on a stick' scenario. It could potentially lead to a Server device that would be not unlike the Moxi standalone units. They are linux based, have cablecard slots, and even support media extenders (the Moxi Mate unit). All of this within CableLabs approval.

There also seems to be some provision in the system for allowing degraded quality output through a non-protected path. This might even allow for some level of comskip system, or even placeshifting. It actually seems like some sort of dialog would have to be established with cablelabs to determine the intent of their protections, and try to work towards implementing the features of sage around their protections...

[Polypro]

I'm with Stanger...I would never go back to cable. I also have to be honest: I have 2 HD-PVR's sitting in a closet unopened...because S-Video from an HD DirecTV box looks "good enough" for 99% of the stuff that gets recorded. Most of the stuff I care about is OTA and the wife can't tell if "Designed To Sell" is in HD or not. I'm not blind guys, of course there is visual difference...It just isn't big enough for me to switch from the PVR500's yet. CableCard support in Sage doesn't matter to me one bit.

P

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by stuckless

I wonder, out of all the users crying for cablecard support, who would be happy with sage, if the solution turned out to be a very restricted drm encumbered solution that auto deleted recordings after an expiry and prevented you from moving your recordings to other devices, etc.... ie a STB.

I do not like the idea of automatically deleting things, but aside from that if I can record something, keep it on my server, and watch it on any extender/client/placeshifter whenever I wanted to, as many times as I wanted to, I'm 100% fine with that and would pay for a solution.

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

It is exciting. But remember dell has internal cable card tuners for list of $209 with coupons it gets cheaper. I think Sage is going in the right direction but they are not embracing the future of tv if they don't take some steps to get some external tuner support be it sattelite or cable or something besides reallying soly on hd-pvr/qam/ota for hd. I still think the analog hole will be closed may be a while but I don't think the mpaa will give up the fight until it is at least downconverted to 480p on component.

And you don't think that once cablecard "copy freely" is adopted by everyone... then the content providers won't just say... "hey, let's turn off the copy freely flag". I don't mind if sagetv wants to invest in cablecard, but I would hope that they would price their servers and clients in 2 tiers... 1 higher priced tier for cablecard support + drm and a requiar price teir for non cablecard+drm support. That way, people that love and want DRM, can pay the extra costs for it.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Another option is the upcoming 'server on a stick' scenario. It could potentially lead to a Server device that would be not unlike the Moxi standalone units. They are linux based, have cablecard slots, and even support media extenders (the Moxi Mate unit). All of this within CableLabs approval.

That is true they could bypass playready and avoid that licensing fee but anyway you slice it they would still have to pay CableLabs for certification and that is probably as much if not more then playready. Which Moxi and others have done.

[Ryokurin]

Originally Posted by stuckless

I wonder, out of all the users crying for cablecard support, who would be happy with sage, if the solution turned out to be a very restricted drm encumbered solution that auto deleted recordings after an expiry and prevented you from moving your recordings to other devices, etc.... ie a STB.

No, I haven't forgot but we all are going to be hit with a major problem in the next year or so as Comcast convert their system to a completely digital system. It's been widely expected that since the FCC gave them the right to enable Privacy Mode (56-bit encryption) they will eventually lock down all of their channels to everything but authorized equipment as it will basically prevent cable theft, and people getting services they weren't paying for.

I recently disabled my analog ports on my hvr-1600 as comcast is knocking most of the channels out next week, and unless I can rig sage or any other program to switch channels on the DTA I'm stuck only being able to record OTA channels. I'm cool with that as 80% of what I watched was broadcast channels but I will miss being able to occasionally record SD content.

All I'm just saying is that sooner or later we are going to have to deal with it, if you have cable. Heck, any way you choose now you are going to have to figure out how to IR blast to multiple equipment. The rats nest of cables is just going to get worse.

[Dirtman16]

SKIP ME - I'M MERGED FROM THE HARDWARE FORUM

Looks like aftermarket CableCARD tuners will be supported by Media Center in Windows 7. Any chance this will come to Sage?

http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/p...MCCEDIAPR.mspx

End Customers Can Now Add Digital Cable Tuners With CableCARD to Their PCs

Microsoft and CableLabs announced that customers will now be able to add digital cable tuners with CableCARD to a Windows 7-based PC with Windows Media Center. A new tool will be provided by Microsoft that assesses the PC’s ability to support the solution. This tool will analyze the customer’s PC and enable digital cable support if the PC meets requirements, opening digital cable options to Windows Media Center customers across the country. Microsoft also announced that, with Windows 7, it has increased the number of TV tuners that can be connected to the PC from two to four per tuner type, thereby allowing customers to simultaneously record or watch as many as four digital cable TV channels.

“We are excited that digital cable customers will now be able to take advantage of this new opportunity to bring great cable TV programming to the PC,” said So Vang, vice president of OpenCable at CableLabs. “We are dedicated to helping customers get the most from their cable service, and this will be a great win for both the customer and the cable operators.”


* merged 8 *

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Brent

They still have to get CableLabs Certification. I'm not sure if these changes make it any cheaper for someone like SageTV to do so - I just don't know.

Do they? Or if they use MediaFoundation or whatever VMC is using with PlayReady (which playready is already approved) do they need to. Or more to the point, can 3rd parties assemble the parts MS has already certified and play these files back?

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Another option is the upcoming 'server on a stick' scenario. It could potentially lead to a Server device that would be not unlike the Moxi standalone units. They are linux based, have cablecard slots, and even support media extenders (the Moxi Mate unit). All of this within CableLabs approval.

But they'd still need to license a DRM system or create one from scratch and get it certified.

Originally Posted by stuckless

And you don't think that once cablecard "copy freely" is adopted by everyone... then the content providers won't just say... "hey, let's turn off the copy freely flag". I don't mind if sagetv wants to invest in cablecard, but I would hope that they would price their servers and clients in 2 tiers... 1 higher priced tier for cablecard support + drm and a requiar price teir for non cablecard+drm support. That way, people that love and want DRM, can pay the extra costs for it.

Yeah, why are they going through the trouble of getting DTA's waivered if they're going to let anyone record unprotected copies of everything in the basic tier.