Project Draco - another MCE project dead

[wayner]

There is much unhappiness in the MCE camp now that Project Draco (aka a DISH network tuner for Win MC) appears to be dead. Over at TheGreenButton there are a bunch of folks saying things like "This is the last straw - I am moving to Sage". Prepare for new users.

[HelenWeathers]

I gave up on MCE when the HDPC20 (DirecTV's version of Draco) was shot down last summer and no support for the HD-PVR was in the works yet.

New SageTV users are always welcome.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

I gave up on MCE when the HDPC20 (DirecTV's version of Draco) was shot down last summer and no support for the HD-PVR was in the works yet.

According to Brent the HD-PVR support could be the next item to fall by the wayside.

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by wayner

According to Brent the HD-PVR support could be the next item to fall by the wayside.

Too little, Too late anyway.

[wayner]

Totally - especially since they have also given up on extenders other than an Xbox360.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by wayner

According to Brent the HD-PVR support could be the next item to fall by the wayside.

Lets just say I don't expect to see native HD-PVR + MS MediaCenter support this year. And I can't seem to confirm it will happen for sure at all anymore...

I could be wrong of course so take that for what its worth.

[wayner]

Why does MS always have to make things so difficult? They make Canadians jump through hoops to get ATSC support in MCE and surely it wouldn't be that hard to get the HD-PVR working in MCE given their resources and the fact that people have written hacks to allow it to work.

[Brent]

I think the team that worked on MC WANTED to make things work, but were forced to change their focus and give up on anything that doesn't fit into that very narrow focus. It was a business decision by the powers that be at MS that basically made MC a narrowly focused app. Probably a simple "is it worth it for our company" decision.

[wayner]

I hear what you are saying but just writing drivers to support a tuning device isn't really changing the focus of the app. After all, MCE has no problem handling SD cable boxes via tuners with S-video inputs and IR blasters. What is the big deal about supporting a tuning device that uses component inputs rather than s-video or composite inputs and gives you HD? That's not a shift in the focus of the app.

Oh well, that's reason # 345 that I switched from MCE to SageTV!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Brent

I think the team that worked on MC WANTED to make things work, but were forced to change their focus and give up on anything that doesn't fit into that very narrow focus. It was a business decision by the powers that be at MS that basically made MC a narrowly focused app. Probably a simple "is it worth it for our company" decision.

The ironic thing is if MS had not imposed so may artificial restrictions on *MC they could have wiped the floor with all the other apps.

I still remember how exciting it was watching the first CES keynote where Media Center was originally announced. It sounded wonderful. Great DVR software for the PC, that integrates well with windows....

But then it was only available to big OEMs, it took a year or two before you could pick it up on Newegg.

And then there were the extenders, and the "professional" add ons. Once again sounded perfect. A vast ecosystem of connection and "plugin" options from "professionals" to do almost anything.

Basically everything that's been "promised" about *MC is everything that makes Sage great, but with a better UI and professional developers making add ons.

But it seems at every turn MS has nipped anything interesting in the bud before it could get really exciting.

[MitchSchaft]

Ha, I switched over from MCE2005 in January. Microsoft gets chewed out a lot at TGB!

[wayner]

And Sage is very responsive to its user base which is a polar opposite from MS. I have only been using Sage for a year but when someone provides a good idea, such as giving prioirty to HD recordings, it seems to get implemented in Sage very quickly. That never happens with WinMC. Another example is support for BluRay rips. The Sage extender is a great product that has few shortcomings - one was lack of wifi and now that has been fixed - MS never got their extenders to have the total functionality required and now they seem to have given up.

MS has also been ridiculously obstinate about not coming up with a software clients (softsled) which IMHO is totally illogical.

Sage also has great support - you don't really get much support from MS for MC.

[soul_stalker]

I'm a current VMC user. I rely on firewire for all my recordings. I use three extenders and have the HTPC itself in my home theater (okay it's just a basement with a large TV). The only thing missing from VMC for me is the ability to use the firewire stream for live tv.

#1. I know sage can use firewire as a native tuner, but I am not hearing good things with respect to the reliability of the solution.

#2. Number two (And I know this is a huge can of worms around here) is the UI, yes even Sage MC. If the UI was better I'd gladly switch, pay for sage, buy three extenders and so on. But that awful (imho) GUI plus mixed results with firewire leaves me solidly at VMC.

This community is incredible, the product sounds awesome, the functionality unbeatable, the extenders a dream come true... the GUI is CRAP. Like Atari bad.

I cannot stress this enough Sage developers.... I really mean that. Look at all the very, very tru pro-sage points listed in this threat so far and still... STILL, sage has not attracted nearly as many of the Media Centre user's as it should. They are smart people, who love to develop, expand the functionality of VMC, and contribute to their respective community extensively. Sounds like they would LOVE sage. It has everything they are looking for! But they are staying with VMC for the GUI. Remember, these are not people who are just into bling..... as I said, they are writing apps and creating workarounds and hacks all with the functionality in mind.... all because they love the GUI. That has to speak volumes. If sage had it's current guts, community, and great product with a better GUI there would be very few of us left over at TGB. It really is the only thing keeping people there.... SAGE has VMC beat in EVERY other category... so even if your anti-bling, you should be able to appreciate the power of the GUI appearance.

Is it something I could look past... well maybey, BIG maybey. Would my wife.... never.

-Chris
(Sorry for the rant... I really want to be able to enjoy SAGE)

[aflat]

I think alot of this stems from the fact that MS is trying to create software for both the consumer, and commercial customers. They are pushing their IPTV commercial product hard, AT&T Uverse runs their software. I'm sure their trying to convince other companies to use their software as well. Of course by giving people all these features in MC cuts into the selling points of their commercial software. Which one do you think makes more money, commercial software, or something that comes bundled with most versions of Windows? They ahve to save all the good features for the commercial software.

Although we are happy to roll our own DVR, there are many many more people who are happy just renting from their cable provider. Why do you think MC extenders are being discontinued, there aren't enough of us to support that business model, yet there are a ton of people who still want to use a DVR in their home.

[wayner]

And the cable companies make it very hard to use any other hardware given all of the DRM amd shortcomings around CableCard. Every cable/satellite company PVR that I have seen has totally sucked vs. TiVo/Sage/Windows MCE/BeyondTV. But there is no easy option for the average consumer.

[wayner]

Chris Lanier has an interesting story on his blog saying, essentially, that MS has no interest in devleoping MC for the enthusiast market. That has become increasingly clear over the last couple of years, hopefully more come over to Sage to increase the user base and use their development skills to build more plugins. See http://msmvps.com/blogs/chrisl/archi...2/1717522.aspx

[stanger89]

Yeah, I agree with their outlook, however I completely disagree with this:

Charlie: “No. That's because they have never done so. The enthusiast market is always a subset of the overall market any product targets. Put another way: Where the goal is making a profit you wouldn't sacrifice a broad market opportunity of 100 for the narrow enthusiast market of 10. Making a Microsoft-sized profit is different than making a profit if you were a much smaller company.”

The best, most successful products out there are successful because they satisfy the enthusiasts and the broad market. MS seems to think they are mutually exclusive, when they are not.

-edit

And reading the rest of Chris's blog, I think it's clear that Sage needs to kick into high gear. While the "enthusiast" market might not be big enough for MS, it's huge for a company like Sage. They're in a position to make out like bandits picking up the pieces of *MC.

[Taddeusz]

The main problem I see with *MC is that any more it is pretty much tacked onto Windows as an afterthought. People who care know it's there. Everyone else outside of the enthusiast market either don't care or have a Tivo or DVR from their satellite or cable company.

As an enthusiast product the reason *MC has failed is it's lack of extensibility. No native H.264 recording, a la the HD PVR. No client/server model or rather no software extenders. Ok, you can access media on other MC's but isn't it so much simpler if everything is centralized? Decentralized PVR's seem like such a PITA having to figure out what gets recorded where. Then there's the chance that two family members record the same thing. That's a waste of storage.

But really, the main problem with *MC is that because it is a Windows feature it is not a separate priority for Microsoft. But then this all stems from the fact that the majority of the OEM's aren't going to try and push something that the majority of people aren't going to care about. The multitudes are happy with their set-top DVR's.

SageTV is made for the enthusiast who cares.

[Brent]

I think we'll see several Microsoft MC users at least taking another look at SageTV. Not a landslide of people or anything like that, but these last few developments (disappointments) for MC will probably get them to look at least.

[stanger89]

Yeah, I'm sure lots of people will stick with it because it works. But there's definitely a decent sized group out there that's been "sticking with it" hoping for a good premium HD solution.

With the DirecTV and Dish's solutions being canned, and as somewhat questionable future for the HD PVR on WMC, I think we're at a time where a decent number of people will realize it's futile to wait for MS to "fix" stuff.