Hulu/Netflix please!

[kurt711]

I know this has been discussed alot but I would like Jeff or Andy to give some sort of answer on this. I saw Hulu shown off at CES and was so excited that HD200 was going to be the only box I'll ever need connected to my TV. I have tried playon route but it is really too slow and would break with playon updates or HD200 updates(not to mention it being out of SageTV interface). I have been very happy with my sage purchase but this is one point that i would like some sort of answer on. I would like to replace my htpc client with another HD200 but if there are no plans to bring Hulu/Netflix into Sage interface on HD200, I guess I'll have to stick with my power guzzing htpc. Thanks for a great product, just one step away from pefect one .

[gplasky]

From Brent's interview with Jeff Kardatzke, the CTO and co-founder of SageTV:

Jeff: "It’s definitely important, but it’s something you have to be careful with in terms of what you try to promise there. A lot of this online content delivery is going to change and be restricted as time goes on."
Brent: I know you demo'd Hulu playback within SageTV earlier this year at CES. Has the built-in Hulu playback been shelved for SageTV since the Boxee/Hulu war broke out?
Jeff: "We are hoping there is some way to deliver Hulu content but we haven’t found a way to do it reliably and are not sure Hulu would support that."
EDITORS NOTE: I got a clear indication that SageTV has stopped development on Hulu for the time being and it seems (my speculation) directly related to what happened with Boxee. They left the door open that someday it might be added back, but for now don't expect anything further in my opinion. Almost to further enforce SageTV's reasoning on this topic, Hulu blocked Playstation 3 Hulu playback after this interview took place - much like Hulu did on Boxee.

You're not going to see Hulu anytime soon on Sage.

Gerry

[Brent]

Netflix seems like a more likely alternative. I would LOVE to see Netflix added although I honestly don't know if it will or won't ever happen. I'm crossing my fingers that we'll see it eventually but Jeff indicated the free online services such as some of the online radio/audio were more likely - at least at first.

[davidjade]

I too would love to see Netflix support added. I would but more HD200s if that happened. It seems like more and more devices and platforms are supporting Netflix everyday. Why doesn't SageTV?

[valnar]

Originally Posted by davidjade

Why doesn't SageTV?

The correct question is why doesn't Netflix? I'm sure Sage would love to. My bet is the ball is in Netflix's court.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by valnar

The correct question is why doesn't Netflix? I'm sure Sage would love to. My bet is the ball is in Netflix's court.

Agreed. I guarantee you SageTV wants Netflix on the box. The only things I can think of holding this back are:
* Netflix approves which devices to put it on & either hasn't gotten to SageTV yet or thinks SageTV customer base is too small or something like that
* DRM issues - some really involved and/or expensive process to ensure the hardware is capable of protecting the media
* Other software issues - needs something not yet on the HD200 or something like that. So either in the plans of SageTV or being worked on
*It's coming - we just don't know it yet... This one's my dream anyway. But we'll never know until it's ready if it ever is

There are probably other reasons - but those are the ones I could dream up at the moment.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by valnar

The correct question is why doesn't Netflix? I'm sure Sage would love to. My bet is the ball is in Netflix's court.

Originally Posted by Brent

Agreed. I guarantee you SageTV wants Netflix on the box. The only things I can think of holding this back are:
* Netflix approves which devices to put it on & either hasn't gotten to SageTV yet or thinks SageTV customer base is too small or something like that

As brainbone was checking out being an official Netflix developer this is what he came across:

Originally Posted by brainbone

Ok.So, using the "Netflix Branded" API (what Vista Media Center (VMC) Uses for accessing Netflix) through a standard Netflix Developer Account is not an option. Netflix will only allow this for applications it approves as "Netflix Branded", and will only approve applications that target 50,000+ users in the first few months of release.

It sounds more like our customer base to me.

Gerry

[Brent]

That looks like it could be the problem. Good point Gerry. Disappointing though.

[gplasky]

The other thing that is disappointing is Microsoft includes VMC in Vista Premium and Vista Ultimate. Whether people use it or not, so it is much easier for Microsoft to hit those types of numbers than a true PVR/Media application that has to be bought for only that type of function.

Gerry

[Brent]

Originally Posted by gplasky

The other thing that is disappointing is Microsoft includes VMC in Vista Premium and Vista Ultimate. Whether people use it or not, so it is much easier for Microsoft to hit those types of numbers than a true PVR/Media application that has to be bought for only that type of function.

Gerry

I've been thinking of a unsolicited "business plan" for SageTV regarding increasing the eyeballs and customer base. Here's the gist of it:

1. Offer a SageTV One version. Sort of a "basic" version that offers all of SageTV functions for a single computer. But limit it by # of tuners, and limit some other features such as don't allow client PC or placeshifter - something like that. So you hopefully pick up some looking for a free HTPC software program who once they get hooked want more. Extenders would work with this group which makes SageTV money even though the user is using the #1 version.

2. Offer a SageTV Pro version. That would be the version we have today.

I imagine the problem with that is they would have to somehow pay for the cost of guide data for the #1 group with revenues from all others. But something along those lines seem to be a possible successful avenue. Even still, while I have no idea how many users there are, I imagine it would be quite a stretch to get to 50,000 hardware devices.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by Brent

I've been thinking of a unsolicited "business plan" for SageTV regarding increasing the eyeballs and customer base. Here's the gist of it:

1. Offer a SageTV One version. Sort of a "basic" version that offers all of SageTV functions for a single computer. But limit it by # of tuners, and limit some other features such as don't allow client PC or placeshifter - something like that. So you hopefully pick up some looking for a free HTPC software program who once they get hooked want more. Extenders would work with this group which makes SageTV money even though the user is using the #1 version.

2. Offer a SageTV Pro version. That would be the version we have today.

I imagine the problem with that is they would have to somehow pay for the cost of guide data for the #1 group with revenues from all others. But something along those lines seem to be a possible successful avenue. Even still, while I have no idea how many users there are, I imagine it would be quite a stretch to get to 50,000 hardware devices.

This is where you work a bundle deal with a tuner manufacturer (maybe work with one on their next new tuner) and get them to pick up the guide tab. Or restrict it to OTA and throw in a pair of rabbit ears. And no clients. Or think if they could set these restrictions on their up and coming Sage-on-a-Stick and bundle that USB stick with a tuner. Which tuner just came out recently-the Avermedia Duet? Now just think if Sage came with it and was restricted to just work with that one tuner. Upgrade later for more tuner support. Sometimes you have to ride on someone's coattails.

Gerry

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by gplasky

This is where you work a bundle deal with a tuner manufacturer (maybe work with one on their next new tuner) and get them to pick up the guide tab.

It seems like this would be the best way to expand Sage's customer base, but they've tried this before. The Plextor ConvertX PX-TV100U came with "SageTV Lite". I don't know details about what functionality it offered, but the announcement gives come clues. Apparently it didn't include favorites recording, the imported media player, DVD playback or the client-server architecture. It apparently never caught on. The announcement suggested that SageTV Lite would be sold on its own for $30, but I don't think that ever happened (someone should correct me if I'm wrong).

Edit: I think the existence of Windows Media Center pretty much removes manufacturers' incentive to provide decent DVR software with tuners. I think it will probably be even harder for Sage to strike up deals with manufacturers now than in 2005.

[simonen]

The other route would be for someone to make some kind of plugin that would allow media from playon to be brought into the server so it can be distributed to all clients and/or extenders. This could keep the heat off of Sage and leave it on playon who have to update their software anyways when something changes.

I say it like it is easy, but it could be a viable alternative.

Why can't Sage add support as a DLNA/UPnP client (and I am not referring to the HD200)?

[Brent]

I think SageTV is competing against "free" or at least the illusion of free. You have your many freeware HTPC apps which I don't think are as good in the PVR realm. And then you have Microsoft which bundles MediaCenter with their OS - that's the real competition imo. Put your best foot forward with a real, usable SageTV software version with some limitations - this gets everyone in the door so to speak. Then you sell more HD200s, more Placeshifter licenses, and other add-ons etc.

Maybe I'm just thinking this because I just read "Free" by Chris Anderson. It's all about competing with the free ones and/or the perception of free by giving something away to increase your numbers and making the money on the add-ons. It has some obvious risks, but some advantages that I think might apply here now or later.

[aflat]

I'm not sure about the One plan, if they are working on Sage on a stick the next logical step is to sell an all in 1 box, like a Tivo, but runs the Sage on a stick. Get a tuner, a hard drive, a case, and some form of the HD200 board, maybe whatever is in the PCH C300, use the linux Sage on a stick version, and sell it. I would think you could do that for less then $400.

Of course then you have to work out the situation of 2 or more boxes. Maybe force one of the boxes into client only mode, but you'd lose a tuner. Details details

[SWKerr]

"power guzzing htpc"

I started looking at this awhile back and got kill-a-watt to measure the output of everything. I now have everything set to go to sleep now when not in use and, although it was not easy, wake up with the remote. Fact is in sleep mode it draws almost no power and even during playback it is not that bad. (Especially considering what the Receiver and TV draw) The saving of going to the Extender would not even pay for the kill-a-watt you would need to prove you save something. In the extender model you still need to have the server running all the time so I am not sure how much you really net depending on your setup.

I was shocked to see how much power the A\V Receiver and Sat boxes draw in this experiment. I did make a special effort to configure everything so those would be off as much as possible. Even in standby those things use more than I would have expected.

**********************
I really would not drop my HTPC for the extender because of the online content. Sage will never be integrate everything because of DRM and licensing issues. I don't have the Sage extender but I have tried Playon with the Xbox360 and the quality is just not the same and it is slow.

I like the new Hulu Desktop a lot, I can easily control it with the remote and switch back and forth with Sage from the couch. The netfilx plugin works well also but it is not perfect and is not easy to setup. The HTPC is fully functional for everything I care about I cant say I would feel the same way about the extender.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

I think SageTV is competing against "free" or at least the illusion of free. You have your many freeware HTPC apps which I don't think are as good in the PVR realm. And then you have Microsoft which bundles MediaCenter with their OS - that's the real competition imo. Put your best foot forward with a real, usable SageTV software version with some limitations - this gets everyone in the door so to speak. Then you sell more HD200s, more Placeshifter licenses, and other add-ons etc.

I kind of feel like we're hijacking the thread with this discussion, but I think its clear based on what brainbone found that Sage doesn't really have any hope of getting Netflix support unless they can increase their customer base.

I don't think it would be enough for Sage to release some sort of functionally-limited free version of the SageTV software. The problem isn't that Sage is competing with comparable products (BeyondTV) or even free products (GB-PVR). The problem is that Sage basically competing with something that people already have- Windows Media Center. I think that's a fundamentally more difficult problem to overcome than simply competing with 'free'.

Take the browser wars for example. The Mozilla Foundation has a completely free and open source product with the backing of almost every techie in the world. And, its current major competition is a product that has a reputation (somewhat undeserved, in my opinion) of being a virus-loving, spyware-infested piece of crap, even among many non-techies. Yet, IE has 68% market share and Firefox has 22%.

Now, 22% is nothing to sneeze at, but it gives you some idea of what Sage would be up against. It would be significantly more difficult for Sage, since they'd be putting out a limited-functionality product, they wouldn't be up against a product with a reputation like MSIE, and they wouldn't have the benefit of an existing customer base with extenders (i.e., the XBox, though perhaps a BD-J version of Sage would counteract this).

So, basically I'd say their best chance to grow significantly would be to do some bundling with major tuner manufacturers. That almost puts you on the same playing field competing with products people already have. I'm sure they've thought of this because they've tried to do it. I just suspect there isn't much interest from the manufacturers.

[kurt711]

First of all thanks for all the replies and I don't mind thread being hijacked to discuss Sage strategy. I believe we will all win if Sage is more successful. I understand about Hulu but to me Netflix on extender will be 80% of the perfection i am looking for. I do not buy the argument that Sage is too small of user base, I have seen Netflix approve unproven devices especially expensive LG and samsung bluray players. Netflix might not involve themselves in development as they have Roku(similar to standalone HD200) but they certainly would not say no if Sage did all the ground work.
I believe Sage's big in is the HD200, if it had netflix in standalone mode along with upnp, I'm sure people going for PCH or any other media player would atleast give HD200 a look. I come from MCE world and got into Sage just because of HD200, bought it in first round right after Brent posted on his blog. Thought was, I could get rid of one PC(power and noise) and if I don't like Sage, I'll atleast have a media player to stream movies from server.
On the point of not letting go PC client, I understand DRM and all but HD200 is almost there. I can watch TV (recorded on my WHS), stream movies (even ripped bluray), stream music and watch podcasts(love Tekzilla and HDNation). I have PC client in bedroom because I want netflix streaming late night movie session. My toned down PC still uses about 60 watts and noise level is just enough to annoy while watching movie at low volumes. I love HD200 and all I was looking for was an official yay/nay so I can think of other avenues.
I don't mean to call out on anyone and I understand Sage has to keep some secrets but would like to hear more from top brass. Interview that Brent did with Jeff was the first insight I got into sage and it was great to see Jeff's enthusiasm with media stuff, made him seem a fellow geek
By the way I would even take a Bluray player with sage client. Maybe Sage should partner with Vizio on their upcoming cheap player, expand marketshare!
Thank you guys for allowing me to get it all out there and all your answers.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by kurt711

I do not buy the argument that Sage is too small of user base, I have seen Netflix approve unproven devices especially expensive LG and samsung bluray players.

I wonder how they made those deals to put Netflix on those two devices if there is a minimum sales requirement. Possibly based on similar devices or projected sales? Or maybe Netflix requires the company come up with some cash - something like that.

By the way I would even take a Bluray player with sage client. Maybe Sage should partner with Vizio on their upcoming cheap player, expand marketshare!

I wouldn't mind seeing something like this either.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by Brent

I wonder how they made those deals to put Netflix on those two devices if there is a minimum sales requirement. Possibly based on similar devices or projected sales? .

My guess: Brand recognition and projected unit sales. If Samsung came to Netflix pointing out how many Blu-Ray players they have sold and will sell and all they would have to do is a firmware push and they could have Netflix running on several of their old devices and many of the ones to come, Netflix would be stupid not to.