SageTV on Popcorn C200

[Bal]

Well the Popcron hour C200 has been confirmed to not only play BR iso but decode DTS as well. To top it off one can add a BR drive to the box for local play. Finally, it includes a mini-pci allowing for N network speed wireless. All this with no fans. (The one complaint my lady has is she can not just rent a dvd/BR on a whim and throw it in a player at each TV.)

All in all this gives one the ability to have a single box play network media including all ISO, local DVD & BR, and even wirelessly if absolutely neccassary.

Thats EXACTLY what I want hardware wise. One box per TV and I can do everything.

One large issue. It does not integrate with SageTV!!! It does work with GBPVR though meaning the possability exists it could work with Sage (just an open source protocol). Is there any chance of this happening?

I know before the Sage boxes came out there was some work on this but it died since Sage went with a closed protocol. I would love to hear some feedback from people on what they think about this.

At a minimum I think Sage should just develop a software client for the C200 they can sell seperately, similiar to their media extender client software.

Am I hoping for too much here?

[reggie14]

Bare in mind Sage has always had a proprietary protocol on the extenders. Things didn't really change with the HD100/HD200. Extender support did first start with a user effort getting the interface to work on the Hauppauge MVP, which later Sage picked up and branded as the SageTV Media Extender. I think there's been a couple efforts by users to get Sage going on other extenders more recently, but Sage didn't have the time and/or inclination to help them out.

I've been advocating support for third-party extenders for quite a while, but I don't think we'll ever see it again (maybe, just maybe, if Hauppauge makes another one. It's just not a priority for them. I understand where they're coming from. The HD200 extender does pretty much what most of Sage's current customers want at a lower price than the PCH C200. Plus, its easier to support two related pieces of hardware (the HD100 and HD200) that they have complete control over than lots of different extenders from other manufacturers. And, of course, there's the risk that another extender could cannibalize HD200 sales and damage their ability to make a good return on their investment for developing the HD200 in the first place. We know Sage is a pretty niche product; there probably isn't a huge market out there for SageTV extenders.

[TallMomof2]

Bal - I, too, would love the C200 to work with Sage since I'm looking at purchasing *more* equipment to get my ripped Blu Rays working on my older HD TV. Most of my Blu Rays have DTS which means addtitional equipment for DTS pass through or converting DTS to AC3 which is time consuming.

An HD200 with a built in Blu Ray and decodes DTS would be perfect but heck I'd settle for an HD200 that decodes DTS.

[Brent]

I don't think it's impossible, but it would be difficult to do right and would require someone 3rd party to do it. I'd rather see a SageTV HD250 or something with similar innards though. The HD200 does nearly everything I want it to except for the lack of decoding DTS. I wouldn't mind having the ability to throw in an internal hard drive either.

[Bal]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Bare in mind Sage has always had a proprietary protocol on the extenders. Things didn't really change with the HD100/HD200. Extender support did first start with a user effort getting the interface to work on the Hauppauge MVP, which later Sage picked up and branded as the SageTV Media Extender. I think there's been a couple efforts by users to get Sage going on other extenders more recently, but Sage didn't have the time and/or inclination to help them out.

I've been advocating support for third-party extenders for quite a while, but I don't think we'll ever see it again (maybe, just maybe, if Hauppauge makes another one. It's just not a priority for them. I understand where they're coming from. The HD200 extender does pretty much what most of Sage's current customers want at a lower price than the PCH C200. Plus, its easier to support two related pieces of hardware (the HD100 and HD200) that they have complete control over than lots of different extenders from other manufacturers. And, of course, there's the risk that another extender could cannibalize HD200 sales and damage their ability to make a good return on their investment for developing the HD200 in the first place. We know Sage is a pretty niche product; there probably isn't a huge market out there for SageTV extenders.

Well it sounds like I am hoping for too much.

They make more profit per software sale than hardware. There is little no hard costs asociated for the app, only support, servers etc. All stuff they have to have for hardware as well as the hardware support and issues owning that entails. Meaning, I would have thought they would pick a model like the new C200, write a custom operaitng system, and sell software. They could support 1-2 models like they do now. Only difference is no hardware costs for them.

Just kills me that I am actually looking through the GBPVR forums to review what it would take to possibly change to it. Sage is so much better, but the C200 is just to perfect from a capability standpoint longterm to start investing in 4 more HD200's to have to replace them in 6 months.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Bal

They make more profit per software sale than hardware.

But they make even more by getting the proceeds from both the hardware and software sales!

In all seriousness, I don't mean to suggest that this is just some sort of evil business decision designed to lock customers in. There are good reasons for Sage to design and support their own, and only their own, extenders. First, when the HD100 came out, it was (almost) the only game in town (I think there was Dlink box that some users tried to mess around witH). The PCH was on it's way too, and I think just barely edged it out on release date, but clearly the two products were developed simultaneously. Maybe things would have been different if the PCH came out a year earlier. Furthermore, since Sage writes the firmware for the extenders, they have a lot more control over the complete product.

Of course, as a consumer I'd like to have more a choice, but I see the good and bad that goes along with extender support being the way it is now.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Bal

Well it sounds like I am hoping for too much.

They make more profit per software sale than hardware. There is little no hard costs asociated for the app, only support, servers etc. All stuff they have to have for hardware as well as the hardware support and issues owning that entails. Meaning, I would have thought they would pick a model like the new C200, write a custom operaitng system, and sell software. They could support 1-2 models like they do now. Only difference is no hardware costs for them.

Just kills me that I am actually looking through the GBPVR forums to review what it would take to possibly change to it. Sage is so much better, but the C200 is just to perfect from a capability standpoint longterm to start investing in 4 more HD200's to have to replace them in 6 months.

You realize that if Sage "supported" the C200, it would almost certainly mean losing all the functionality you want. Sage support would probably mean overwriting the entire PCH OS/install on the box. And Sage doesn't have the DTS license for DTS decoding, they don't have Blu-ray licenses for playing Blu-ray discs (fully), no AACS license.

So basically Sage running on that box would clobber the Blu-ray functions you so desire. That is unless Sage worked the same functionality back into the HD200/HD100, and then what's the point of getting the PCH C200 instead?

And you can't just do a "software" solution because these devices don't have the general-purpose CPU power to handle the Video decoding that such a solution would require. They need custom apps that know how to interface directly with the hardware to leverage the special purpose processors built into these things.

I and I think at least a few others still think a BD-Live version of the extender/miniclient is the optimal solution, it would mean Sage could use any BD-Live (Blu-ray Profile 2) player as an extender by just inserting a disc.

All that said, there's really nothing stopping anyone from making a "pseudo" client for such a box. Look at the XBMC "scripts" with Sage support. They interface with Nielm's webserver to get the Sage info and since the Sage files are located on standard windows file shares and are in standard formats, they can just be read directly.

[brainbone]

I would think creating an RDP/Media Center Extender wrapper for the SageTV proprietary extender/placeshifter protocol would do the trick.

The SageTV protocol being largely undocumented makes this a bit difficult for any 3rd party to implement.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by brainbone

I would think creating an RDP/Media Center Extender wrapper for the SageTV proprietary extender/placeshifter protocol would do the trick.

The SageTV protocol being largely undocumented makes this a bit difficult for any 3rd party to implement.

Write Your Own Plugin to Display the SageTV User Interface on Other Devices or Remotely

Gerry

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by gplasky

Write Your Own Plugin to Display the SageTV User Interface on Other Devices or Remotely

Maybe its just my own ignorance, but it looks like that doesn't even put a dent in the problem of trying to get the Sage UI up and working on third-party devices. Am I missing something? I just don't see how that could be used.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Maybe its just my own ignorance, but it looks like that doesn't even put a dent in the problem of trying to get the Sage UI up and working on third-party devices. Am I missing something? I just don't see how that could be used.

This is what was originally used to get the SageTV interface on the MVP via a plugin. And there is more.

MediaPlayer plugin

SageTV Input plugin

IMPORTANT NOTE:
The full SageTV UI can be exported to remote locations or devices by using this plugin along with the SageTV Input plugin and the SageTV OSD Rendering plugin. These 3 interfaces provide all that is needed to get the SageTV UI running on a Media Adapter or Media Extender. An example of this can be seen in the Hauppauge MediaMVP plugin

Gerry

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by gplasky

This is what was originally used to get the SageTV interface on the MVP via a plugin. And there is more.

Fair enough. Write that one up as my own ignorance. Thanks for the other links.

[simonen]

I would totally pay for an enhanced version of SageTV Media Center if it fully supported blue-ray and dts and ported it over to the HD100/200 when they connected to it.

It already costs $70 (per year) for anydvd to rip your movies and you still can't use dts, so then you have to convert the audio if an ac3 track doesn't exist or have a receiver hooked up to your TV. This doesn't even figure in on the movies you rent, because it is illegal to rip those since you don't own them.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by simonen

This doesn't even figure in on the movies you rent, because it is illegal to rip those since you don't own them.

Well, I guess that depends on your interpretation. I rent Netflix Blu-Rays on occasion and while I don't rip them, I do stream them from my HTPC server to my HD200 - without ripping. It uses Slysoft's AnyDVD to ignore the "protection" but I don't make a copy and I don't keep it. So in that case I personally see nothing wrong with it.

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by gplasky

This is what was originally used to get the SageTV interface on the MVP via a plugin. And there is more.

MediaPlayer plugin

SageTV Input plugin

Gerry

I haven't looked at them much but its unclear if these plugins would allow multiple, simulations connections to SageTV server... it seems like these work with a single SageTV client?

Ideally, I'd like enough information to implement a placeshifter client for Android...

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by brainbone

I haven't looked at them much but its unclear if these plugins would allow multiple, simulations connections to SageTV server... it seems like these work with a single SageTV client?

Ideally, I'd like enough information to implement a placeshifter client for Android...

You would have to search back thru the forums for some really old postings but Yes-as I recall this supported multiple MVPs as clients. I'll see what I can find from some old backups of the original plugin.

Gerry

[simonen]

Originally Posted by Brent

Well, I guess that depends on your interpretation. I rent Netflix Blu-Rays on occasion and while I don't rip them, I do stream them from my HTPC server to my HD200 - without ripping. It uses Slysoft's AnyDVD to ignore the "protection" but I don't make a copy and I don't keep it. So in that case I personally see nothing wrong with it.

To be fair, you are right; I have done this as well. The only problem is that sometimes you get sage using the wrong playlist on the disk without any way to change it.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by brainbone

I haven't looked at them much but its unclear if these plugins would allow multiple, simulations connections to SageTV server... it seems like these work with a single SageTV client?

Originally Posted by gplasky

You would have to search back thru the forums for some really old postings but Yes-as I recall this supported multiple MVPs as clients.

I kind of think you're both right. If my memory serves, I believe the user-created MVP plugin came out back in the days when you could start multiple instances of the Sage software- one server instance, and as many client instances as you wanted. I thought the MVP plugin required as many instances of the client software as MVPs you wanted to run. Sage blocked the ability to start multiple instances of the Sage software on one machine (using one license, I might add) when they came out with official support for the MVP.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I kind of think you're both right. If my memory serves, I believe the user-created MVP plugin came out back in the days when you could start multiple instances of the Sage software- one server instance, and as many client instances as you wanted. I thought the MVP plugin required as many instances of the client software as MVPs you wanted to run. Sage blocked the ability to start multiple instances of the Sage software on one machine (using one license, I might add) when they came out with official support for the MVP.

Here's the archive of the plugin:

MVP Plugin

And install:

These instructions cover the MVP Client Version 1.3.0.

1. Updating existing MVP Client(s)

Before you begin, shutdown all MVP Clients and backup the existing installations, especially the configuration files SageClient.properties and mvpmvp.properties and the StartMVPClient.cmd start scripts (if you changed them). The formats of those files did not change.

Then you can update the existing MVP Clients by copying the new version over the existing installations. After restoring the files SageClient.properties, mvpmvp.properties and StartMVPClient.cmd, the MVP Client is ready to run again.

Don't forget to shortly unplug the power from the MVP after the upgrade or the MVP itself will not load the new software version and the MVP Client will not work correctly.

2. Prerequisites

MVP Client V1.3.0 requires SageTV Version 2.2.7, 2.2.8, 3.0.5 or later (use MVP Client 1.1b6 for SageTV 2.1.10)
Java 1.4.2_07 (or later) or preferably Java 1.5.0. Java 1.4.2_05 is known to cause problems.
There is no need to have the original Hauppauge Software installed (if it is, make sure it is disabled)
Note: if you are using a personal firewall, make sure all required ports are open. See mvpmvp.properties for a list of required ports.

If you want to use more than one MVP as SageTV Client, please setup the first MVP Client by following the instructions listed under 3. using option "SageTV Client" first. Then go ahead with 4. to setup additional MVP Clients.

3. Installing MVP Client for one (or for the first) MVP

There are two ways to run the MVP Client for SageTV:

as regular SageTV Client
as UI for SageTV running as Windows Service
Please consult the SageTV documention for general information about installing and running SageTV Clients and the SageTV Service and its UI.

Pros and Cons of the two options:

#1 requires a SageTV Client license for the PC you install the MVP Client on (hey, it's not expensive ;-). With one Client license you can run any number of SageTV Clients on one PC. This includes MVP Clients.

#2 doesn't require an additional Client license, but you have to be aware that you can have only one such UI instance running at once. I.e. if you have the MVP Client running, you cannot open another SageTV UI on the PC running the SageTV Service.

Note: if you install the MVP Client into an existing SageTV folder (not recommended), make sure to backup it first!

3.1 Installation as SageTV Client

Install a fresh SageTV Client on the PC the SageTV server is running (you can use a different PC but it has to have the same drive mappings for the video folders as the server)
Unpack the Zip into the SageTV folder of the new Client installation
Set the mmc/video_format_code=8 in SageTVClient.properties if you are in PAL-land (like me in Switzerland ;-). Default is NTSC.
Stop all running MVP applications, e.g. the Hauppauge services MVPMedia and MVPMediaSvc, GBPVR etc.
Unplug the power from the MVP
Execute StartMVPClient.cmd
Power up the MVP
3.2 Installation as UI for SageTV running as Service

Create a copy of the SageTV folder
Steps 2-5 from above, but all in the just created copy of the SageTV folder
Make sure the SageTV Service is running
Execute StartMVPClient.cmd (or SageTV.exe)
Power up the MVP
Either way, after some time the SageTV main menu should appear on the TV attached to the MVP. Don't forget to adjust the overscan settings in SageTV (Menu Setup > Detailed Setup > Multimedia).

4. Installing additional MVP Clients, one for each MVP

If you haven't already, please follow the instructions listed under 3. using the "SageTV Client" option first. This should get you a first working MVP Client.

Then, for each additional MVP/MVP Client:
Create a full copy of the SageTV folder containing the first MVP Client. See the multimvp.jpg picture showing the recommended folder structure
Edit the file StartMVPClient.cmd and change the line "set MVP=MVP1" (without quotes) to
- "set MVP=MVP2" for the second MVP/MVP Client
- "set MVP=MVP3" for the third MVP/MVP Client
- etc.
Execute the StartMVPClient.cmd batch files of all MVP Clients
Note: If you want to run more than 5 MVP Clients you have to add addional port settings to mvp.properties.

Gerry

[Opus4]

This part of the old MVP plugin instructions is obsolete:

Originally Posted by gplasky

...

- Andy