Are we ever going to get rid of the "pause"? YES WE DID!

[sportera]

Is getting rid of the "PAUSE" high on you wish list???

Go to the below link and Vote....

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48115

Note: If this is high on your list, don't check off any of the other line items. I screwed up here, by selecting (2) line items, and split my vote 50% for fixing the pause and 50% for getting Blu-ray support when if I had the option, I would have voted 90% get rid of the pause and 10% add Blu-ray support.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by sportera

Is getting rid of the "PAUSE" high on you wish list???

Go to the below link and Vote....

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48115

Note: If this is high on your list, don't check off any of the other line items. I screwed up here, by selecting (2) line items, and split my vote 50% for fixing the pause and 50% for getting Blu-ray support when if I had the option, I would have voted 90% get rid of the pause and 10% add Blu-ray support.

The poll does not 'split' your vote. It counts each item as a separate yes/no poll. If you want both those things, then it counts each individually (currently, 44 or the 160 people who have taken the poll said they want the recording scheme improved - hence the 27.5%) You other choices do not diminish that at all.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

You other choices do not diminish that at all.

Voting for multiple things absolutely does diminish the impact of your vote for fixing the "pause". Deciding a winner is pretty much always relative. If you prefer A over B, and B over C, how do you decide whether you should vote for just A, or A and B? Your type of poll is basically the same thing as "approval voting", and where is an element of strategy for approval voting. The problem is, basically, voting for A and B cancels out their impact relative to one another, even though you might prefer A over B.

As it turns out, there's no such thing as a "perfect" voting method. While not all methods have the same problems with strategic/tactical voting, they all end up with logical inconsistencies when you consider what will happen in fairly specific circumstances. It's actually been universally proven that its impossible to create a "perfect" voting method.

[Fuzzy]

It's not about a 'winner'... at least I sure hope sage isn't working on only ONE thing for the next version of sage.. It's about a weighted representation of the userbase's wishes.

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

It's not about a 'winner'... at least I sure hope sage isn't working on only ONE thing for the next version of sage.. It's about a weighted representation of the userbase's wishes.

That has always been the case with SageTV. The features which would benefit the biggest chunk of the user base are the ones that eventually are adopted.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Lucas

That has always been the case with SageTV. The features which would benefit the biggest chunk of the user base are the ones that eventually are adopted.

Except sportera was implying that they would only implement the 'feature' (not features) that the single largest chunk of people voted for.

[sportera]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Except sportera was implying that they would only implement the 'feature' (not features) that the single largest chunk of people voted for.

Nope Fuzzy, I was not implying a (1) feature priority. I was implying that your fairly long list of "needs and desires" allows a user to spread his single vote across multiple selections, splitting his vote equally across all the boxes he selects, thus skewing the end result priority rating over all feature upgrade requests. Read my post again. My single vote implied my upgrade priorities were spread 50% fix the pause and 50% add blu-ray support. When I really prioritze my specific need is 90% fix the pause and 10% add blu-ray support.

I'm not stating that any one on the list isn't on "someone's" wish list. I'm just stating that their are significant "flaws" in how the existing SageTV system operates now with HDTV recording available, specifically the "PAUSE". Furthermore I'm stating that fixing existing "flaws" should be prioritzed over adding more "bells and whistles".

Am I making any sense? Again I just cannot believe I'm the only one out there that sees a significant flaw in how Sage operates now with true Hi Def LiveTV recording/playback. And I still cannot believe the majority of Sage users are just going to "accept the flaw" and change viewing habits to pre-recording everything they wish to watch. Furthermore in any software I've ever used (and in +20 years I've used a lot), the vendor always prioritized "fixes" first in new releases.

C'mon people. Give me some support here.

[blade]

Originally Posted by sportera

I'm just stating that their are significant "flaws" in how the existing SageTV system operates now with HDTV recording available, specifically the "PAUSE". Furthermore I'm stating that fixing existing "flaws" should be prioritzed over adding more "bells and whistles".

Am I making any sense? Again I just cannot believe I'm the only one out there that sees a significant flaw in how Sage operates now with true Hi Def LiveTV recording/playback.

I don't really see how now having "true Hi Def LiveTV Recording/playback" makes the pause any less desirable than it was when analog was the only option.

And I still cannot believe the majority of Sage users are just going to "accept the flaw" and change viewing habits to pre-recording everything they wish to watch.

I highly doubt the majority of Sage users are changing their viewing habits because of the pause. It's more likely that the majority of users prefer pre-recording everything, which in turns makes the pause less of an issue for them.

Furthermore in any software I've ever used (and in +20 years I've used a lot), the vendor always prioritized "fixes" first in new releases.

If it was a "bug" I would agree, but it's a side effect of the method Sage chose to use for capturing Live TV. They knew this when they made the decision. It's already been stated by Sage that it's unacceptable and will be addressed in a future release.

The pause has been there since the beginning. Personally all of the new bells and whistles we've gotten over the years such as support for OTA digital signals, QAM support, extenders, HD-PVR support, etc... were much more important to me than fixing the pause. I think a lot of people would probably agree.

C'mon people. Give me some support here.

I think it's a little funny that you're asking people to change they way they vote in a forum poll in an attempt to prove you're right. I don't think you'll find anyone saying, I love the pause please don't do away with it.

I don't dismiss you're dislike of the pause and I agree it will be great when it's gone, but it's not the number one thing on everyone's wish list. I don't understand why that's so difficult for you to accept.

[brainbone]

As I've pointed out in other threads, this pause is the result of a weakness in SageTV's buffering method*. Fixing the pause would also likely decrease recording glitching that can happen if you have too many tuners recording to the same disk or network share (especially if you forgot to format with 64k clusters).

To me, the pause is annoying. But more annoying than the pause are the design decisions* made by SageTV that allow the pause to be there.

* No, I'm not talking about a circular buffer on disk.

[Rico66]

Originally Posted by blade

The pause has been there since the beginning. Personally all of the new bells and whistles we've gotten over the years such as support for OTA digital signals, QAM support, extenders, HD-PVR support, etc... were much more important to me than fixing the pause. I think a lot of people would probably agree.
:

The problem though is that some of these new "bells and whistles" emphasized the pause feature/bug. The pause on OTA channels is somewhat less than a second, which I'd call a feature and I don't have a problem with. But on the HD PVR it's closer to 10 seconds, which I won't call a feature anymore. This simply shows a flaw in the design.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Rico66

The problem though is that some of these new "bells and whistles" emphasized the pause feature/bug. The pause on OTA channels is somewhat less than a second, which I'd call a feature and I don't have a problem with. But on the HD PVR it's closer to 10 seconds, which I won't call a feature anymore. This simply shows a flaw in the design.

That increase in time is the HD-PVR's delay, not Sage's.

[Rico66]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

That increase in time is the HD-PVR's delay, not Sage's.

Yes and no. It's a fact that a channel change takes it's time with the HD PVR, which is not the point of discussion here. But the problem of Sage is that it seems to treat this as if it would be a channel change. All you want is to move the recording to a new file due to the underlying schedule, but there's really no reason to restart the channel (filter graph etc.). If the HD PVR recording wouldn't be restarted then the pause would be much shorter.
Sure, this can be blamed on the HD PVR, but in the end it's the application that asks the device to start and stop.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Rico66

But the problem of Sage is that it seems to treat this as if it would be a channel change.

That's a setting you can change (always_tune_channel=true).

[Rico66]

Originally Posted by stanger89

That's a setting you can change (always_tune_channel=true).

Using this setting does indeed not retune the channel (on the STB). But it still stops and restarts the recording, which is exactly what I pointed out above. I have been using this setting for a long time, the pause is 5 to 10 seconds on the HD PVR.

[stanger89]

Interesting, wouldn't have expected the "delay_to_wait_after_tuning" setting to kick in in that case.

[sportera]

Originally Posted by blade

I don't really see how now having "true Hi Def LiveTV Recording/playback" makes the pause any less desirable than it was when analog was the only option.

Are you serious? Do you even have an HDPVR to make an intelligent remark either way? With analog the pause was always a 1/2 sec to 1 second. With the HDPVR it is anywhere from 3 - 10 seconds. Somehow even if I was a moron, I think I'd call that "less desirable".

Originally Posted by blade

I highly doubt the majority of Sage users are changing their viewing habits because of the pause. It's more likely that the majority of users prefer pre-recording everything, which in turns makes the pause less of an issue for them.

Yeah, I keep hearing that from the "Sage Icons" and "Advanced Users". Don't believe it and I still belive this poll proves it.

Originally Posted by blade

If it was a "bug" I would agree, but it's a side effect of the method Sage chose to use for capturing Live TV. They knew this when they made the decision. It's already been stated by Sage that it's unacceptable and will be addressed in a future release. .

Again, as stated above, it was acceptable with analog. It is unacceptable with HDPVR's. And for the umteenth time, Sage made the decision to promote and sell the HDPVR. Now they need to fix the application to support the hardware they promote and sell. And I'd sure like to see a link to where you state that Sage accepted the fact that the pause is acceptable and will address it in a future release. Heck if that was out there somewhere where the average Sage yahoo could find it, I doubt we'd be going back and forth with this. I know, I'd feel more comfortable and reassured.

Originally Posted by blade

The pause has been there since the beginning. Personally all of the new bells and whistles we've gotten over the years such as support for OTA digital signals, QAM support, extenders, HD-PVR support, etc... were much more important to me than fixing the pause. I think a lot of people would probably agree.

Again you live in the past, duh analog. Yeah we got HD-PVR support and I'll be the first to speak up and say THANK YOU!!! But again, the exceptionally LONG pause that goes with it sucks.

Originally Posted by blade

I think it's a little funny that you're asking people to change they way they vote in a forum poll in an attempt to prove you're right. I don't think you'll find anyone saying, I love the pause please don't do away with it..

I don't care one iota how people vote. That's what this country is all about. What I do care about is that the voting mechanism is designed to produce a rating that truly represents the voting public's priorities.

Originally Posted by blade

I don't dismiss you're dislike of the pause and I agree it will be great when it's gone, but it's not the number one thing on everyone's wish list. I don't understand why that's so difficult for you to accept.

I think it is about time we clarify the confusion. It is pretty simple it you think about it.

1. If you still watch and record analog TV, life is still great. You won't notice any significant pause to even worry about. If I were there, I'd vote for other features.

2. But if you've converted to watching and recording digital Hi Def TV, using HDPVR tuners, you've got a 3-10 second pause on the 1/2 and 1 hour when watching LiveTV and the same when changing channels. And if your system is like mine, the pause includes a 3-10 second audio studder with it which really sucks. Life ain't so great anymore.

Now, I have to state I'm sorry for getting hot headed this time, but I'm getting friggin tired of the recordaholic "minority" responding to every post I write with some stupid remark like, "well if you pre-recorded all the programming you watch and view it at a later time like EVERYONE does, you wouldn't have to be concerned with the pause". I'm really sorry but that one just doesn't float.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by sportera

Now, I have to state I'm sorry for getting hot headed this time, but I'm getting friggin tired of the recordaholic "minority" responding to every post I write with some stupid remark like, "well if you pre-recorded all the programming you watch and view it at a later time like EVERYONE does, you wouldn't have to be concerned with the pause". I'm really sorry but that one just doesn't float.

Regardless of your personal experience and usage habits, the same poll you are recruiting people to currently shows that 71.19% of (126 or 177) respondents didn't feel the pause was significant enough to even be one of their choices for sage's priorities. No matter how much you SAY the 'majority' are annoyed by this, it seems not to be the case.

[korben_dallas]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Regardless of your personal experience and usage habits, the same poll you are recruiting people to currently shows that 71.19% of (126 or 177) respondents didn't feel the pause was significant enough to even be one of their choices for sage's priorities. No matter how much you SAY the 'majority' are annoyed by this, it seems not to be the case.

Fuzzy,

I just reallized that the poll is unfair to the vast numbers of Live TV watchers.. they simply don't have the time or flexibility to participate in polls like us few recordaholics. Yeah, that must be it..

[blade]

Originally Posted by sportera

Are you serious? Do you even have an HDPVR to make an intelligent remark either way? With analog the pause was always a 1/2 sec to 1 second. With the HDPVR it is anywhere from 3 - 10 seconds. Somehow even if I was a moron, I think I'd call that "less desirable".

Please point out in the post I quoted where you referred to the HD PVR. You made reference to true HD recording capability not the HD PVR specifically. The HD PVR is not the only device capable of capturing HD. In fact since it uses the analog hole instead of capturing the digital stream one could argue it's the least form of true HD recording available in Sage. If you don't believe QAM tuners (which is what I have) are capturing true HD then I would say you're the one who isn't capable of making an intelligent remark on the subject.

Your statements lump all HD capture together and not all devices suffer the same severity of pause. I can assure you I've never had anywhere near a 10 second pause with my tuners. As a matter of fact I just timed mine and it was approximately 1.5 seconds. I also timed my analog tuner and it was around 1 second. Not an earth shattering difference IMO. Oh and those pauses were with Sage set to change the channel upon the start of a new show. I suspect the pause would have been less if that was set to no.

If everyone was experiencing 3-10 second delays with all of their HD capture devices I'd agree with you that the pause was a bigger issue. The fact of the matter is not everyone is suffering from pauses as long as you are. If you limited your arguments specifically to the HD PVR and not all HD capture you'd probably have less people opposing your argument and more in agreement.

Yeah, I keep hearing that from the "Sage Icons" and "Advanced Users". Don't believe it and I still belive this poll proves it.

You posted:

I still cannot believe the majority of Sage users are just going to "accept the flaw" and change viewing habits to pre-recording everything they wish to watch."

What the poll proves is that the majority of users who voted agree the pause should be fixed at some point.

It does not prove it's the #1 desired fix/feature for users, in fact another current poll disproves that theory. It also does not prove more people watch live TV in Sage than pre-record everything. Numerous people have stated in this thread and others that they do not watch live TV in Sage, but agree it should be fixed. Lastly it definitely does not prove that the majority of users are changing their viewing habits from live TV to pre-recorded because of the pause.

If you'd stop and realize that not everyone is using a HD PVR for live TV viewing and that other HD tuners don't suffer the same length of pause you would better understand why some of us don't see the pause as such a big problem that demands immediate attention.

Again, as stated above, it was acceptable with analog. It is unacceptable with HD PVR's. And for the umteenth time, Sage made the decision to promote and sell the HD PVR. Now they need to fix the application to support the hardware they promote and sell. And I'd sure like to see a link to where you state that Sage accepted the fact that the pause is acceptable and will address it in a future release. Heck if that was out there somewhere where the average Sage yahoo could find it, I doubt we'd be going back and forth with this. I know, I'd feel more comfortable and reassured.

Once again show me where in the post I quoted you referred to the HD PVR. I'll say it again, based on what you posted it appears your problem is more with the HD PVR. Expecting everyone to agree with you that the #1 desire of the majority of users is to fix a problem that is most detrimental to those who watch live TV through 1 particular capture device is asking a lot.

It was stated years ago on the forums in one of the many posts debating whether Sage should be using a circular buffer over writing files to the disk that they felt the benefits of the method chosen outweighed the negatives.

Years later narflex said the pause was undesirable. I don't want to put words in his mouth because I don't recall the exact comment, but it's been reference by both sides of the argument in numerous threads and in at least one that you took part in a couple of months back. Someone with a better memory or more interest in the pause may be able to provide you a link or a quote.

I know in the first case it wasn't referring to the HD PVR since it was years before it was released. I can't recall if the undesirable comment had anything to do with the HD PVR or just the pause in general.

Again you live in the past, duh analog. Yeah we got HD-PVR support and I'll be the first to speak up and say THANK YOU!!! But again, the exceptionally LONG pause that goes with it sucks.

Again you attempt to make everyone's experience with other HD capture devices the same as yours with the HD PVR. The pause was there with analog, it was there with OTA and QAM capable tuners with very little increase over analog. Now with 1 device there is an exceptionally long pause.

If your problem is specifically with the HD PVR you need phrase it that way. Either way your points do not hold water when generalizing the performance of all HD capture devices based on your experience with 1 device.

I don't care one iota how people vote. That's what this country is all about. What I do care about is that the voting mechanism is designed to produce a rating that truly represents the voting public's priorities.

Usually when someone tells others to exclude certain votes from a ballot the person asking them to do it tends to desire a specific result.

I think it is about time we clarify the confusion. It is pretty simple it you think about it.

1. If you still watch and record analog TV, life is still great. You won't notice any significant pause to even worry about. If I were there, I'd vote for other features.

2. But if you've converted to watching and recording digital Hi Def TV, using HDPVR tuners, you've got a 3-10 second pause on the 1/2 and 1 hour when watching LiveTV and the same when changing channels. And if your system is like mine, the pause includes a 3-10 second audio studder with it which really sucks. Life ain't so great anymore.

Once again you're wrong. I've been capturing HD via HDHomeRuns from almost the time they became available. As I said before the pause is just slightly longer than my old analog tuners and I must say life is still great.

As I said above, people would be a lot more receptive to your position if you were able to realize that not everyone uses a HD PVR nor is it the only option for capturing HD in Sage. Saying your choices are analog or long pauses simply isn't true.

Now, I have to state I'm sorry for getting hot headed this time, but I'm getting friggin tired of the recordaholic "minority" responding to every post I write with some stupid remark like, "well if you pre-recorded all the programming you watch and view it at a later time like EVERYONE does, you wouldn't have to be concerned with the pause". I'm really sorry but that one just doesn't float.

If you're referring to me, please point out where I suggested you should pre-record everything. If anything you're the one who believes everyone should watch TV the way you do and have the same concerns as you. Also I never said you shouldn't be concerned with the pause. IMO you should get over yourself and realize it's OK if everyone doesn't agree with you.

Also you have no evidence to prove that those who watch primarily pre-recorded TV are in the minority, just like we have no evidence they're not. You're making an assumption based on your viewing habits.


To take a page from your book and clarify the confusion. It is pretty simple if you think about it.

1 - If you're watching digital Hi Def TV using HD PVR tuners and believe that all HD capture devices suffer the same long pause you're extremely unhappy and generalize all HD viewing experiences as the same. You may even take part in multiple threads on the forums arguing the matter and believing everyone should agree with you that all live HD capture is bad.

2 - If you're watching digital Hi Def TV using HD PVR tuners and realize that not all HD capture devices suffer the same long pause you're extremely unhappy and convey that you're problem is primarily with the HD PVR's extremely long pauses. You may even take part in multiple threads on the forums having civilized discussions with members who agree the HD PVR has excessively long channel changes and you understand not everyone is as upset over the delay because they're not experience the same delay due to different HD capture hardware.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by sportera

Again, as stated above, it was acceptable with analog. It is unacceptable with HDPVR's. And for the umteenth time, Sage made the decision to promote and sell the HDPVR.

Sage added support for the HD PVR because a strong user/customer desire for support for it, for a solution to recording HD from cable or satellite. They added it with a minor version change and did what they could to make it stable. It was not to sell the HD PVR hardware.

And I'd sure like to see a link to where you state that Sage accepted the fact that the pause is acceptable and will address it in a future release.

Jeff (CTO of SageTV) voted in your favorite "pause" thread that he thought it should be fixed.