Curious... Why SageTV over Mediaportal (or other alternatives)??

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by freedml

I've reported it over and over again. I had a worse issue which it took ME months to figure out. Tech support kept thinking and still thinks that it's a problem with my network switch and I have done testing which convinces me that it's not. Even if there is a problem with my network, that's no excuse for the HD200 to be unable to turn off and on from the remote and require the user to pull the plug (just about daily in my case) to get back to normal operation (without powering down the switch or anything else, further evidence it's not the network).

Sure there is. Unlike a Full Client, the UI is still dependent on your server, so if your network has issues (such as an acting up switch in between your HD200 and the server), the HD200 could easily lockup from not getting the information back from your server (especially if a packet is lost that it was very much in need of).

I would like to know how you have tested your switch? If all you have done is transfer files, that isn't a valid test as you wouldn't be able to tell when you suddenly have a ton of packet loss due to an acting up switch. A bunch of packet loss is unnoticeable when it comes to file transfers, but completely noticable when it comes to video and devices dependent on constant information from a source.

[freedml]

I won't get into the network issue at the moment, but if it doesn't get a packet it needs, it should time out after a _few seconds_ (not a minute or 10 minutes) and recover automatically, not lockup requiring a reboot.

Also, since network integrity is important to this product working correctly, there should be a user-accessible 'network test' function in each client (server, client, extenders, placeshifter) which tells you whether your hardware is up to running sage reliably or not.

[paulbeers]

Seriously, you keep blaming the product rather than taking ownership that you might actually have a problem! I asked how you tested your switch and you didn't respond. Based on your previous posts, you are under volting your swtich.

This site will tell you what you truly need for a wallwart:
http://blog.fosketts.net/toolbox/pow...et-calculator/

If you are running around 30 feet of ethernet at 12 volts and 2 amps with 24 gauge ethernet wire, you would actually need about 13 volts from the wallwart in order for your switch to get teh 12 volts at the other end of the run

This could be why your switch (as sage as pointed to), isn't working to its fullest potential. I suppose this again will not be your fault, but the switches fault for not having a strong enough tollerance for voltage irregularities.

[freedml]

At least I acknowledge when I don't answer YOUR questions.

So, maybe if I play along, you'll address my issues.

Consumption of the switch is 1.5a, so according to the calculator link you provided, the voltage drop is .5v or 4%. And wallwarts commonly provide a somewhat higher voltage than their rating, probably overcoming this 4% line drop without further ado. Even so, such devices are commonly designed to work with 10-20% below their nominal voltage, so 4% should be no big deal.

BTW There are several people having the same problems, and they don't all have my switch. Another reason I don't think it's the switch.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by freedml

Tech support kept thinking and still thinks that it's a problem with my network switch and I have done testing which convinces me that it's not. Even if there is a problem with my network, that's no excuse for the HD200 to be unable to turn off and on from the remote and require the user to pull the plug (just about daily in my case) to get back to normal operation (without powering down the switch or anything else, further evidence it's not the network).

I won't claim to know what your problem with the extender is, but I wanted to mention that a while back I had a very similar problem (would sort of "lock up" and had to pull the power to get it to turn off) with my HD100 that turned out to be a bad switch. Replaced it and never had the problem again. It's certainly worth checking out - maybe buying a switch from a local store & trying it out & if that doesn't help returning the switch.

UPDATE: As I think further on this - if it isn't the switch perhaps everyone experiencing this issue has something unique to their network or something the extender isn't handling with something particular to a network.

[freedml]

Was it the switch MODEL or that particular switch? Is there any way to diagnose the problem other than replacing the switch?

[Brent]

Originally Posted by freedml

Was it the switch MODEL or that particular switch?

In my case it was just a plain old switch going bad. It worked for most purposes, but was slowly dropping connections randomly which was giving the extender problems. I think it was a D-Link but not sure. I don't think it was model-specific, just bad-luck-specific .

Is there any way to diagnose the problem other than replacing the switch?

Probably. In my case I plugged in a laptop directly to the switch & it looked fine - ran some tests & stuff & it seemed fine. But I stuck with it and after a while noticed the network connection dropping - it took over an hour before I saw the network drop. But it got worse over time & I just picked up a replacement switch & traded it out. Never did any testing after that as the "if it works leave it alone" philosophy took hold

[reggie14]

The biggest problem I ever had when it came to playing things back on the HD100 actually was some sort of goofy server problem. I thought Sage was crazy for proposing it. I could play back most videos fine, but my mkv files from Handbrake would always lock it up. But, the problem only happened with later firmware on the HD100. I was sure it was some little bug in the HD100 firmware, and basically messed around with things for a month or two. At that point, I was getting a new workstation at home anyway, so I turned my old workstation into my Sage server. Sure enough, the problem went away. Apparently network optimizations in the newer HD100 firmware created problems with my server for unknown reasons.

So, when Sage suggests a hardware/server problem, you should take them seriously even if it sounds ridiculous.

Still, in the defense of freedml, I'm not convinced the extenders fail very gracefully. I don't think there's a good reason for the extenders to lock up from bad media files or an unreliable network connection. I'm not sure to what extent that's a hardware issue or a software/firmware one.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by freedml

Is there any way to diagnose the problem other than replacing the switch?

Another thing you might try if its possible is to plug the extender in directly to the router (if the router is separate from the switch) and see if you experience the same thing - in essence remove the switch from the equation temporarily.

[sageGuru]

1) Easy to setup, myth tv is too complicated to setup.
2) No monthly fee for guide data.
3) Quick software updates
4) All-in-one media solution
5) Customer support that values the customer
6) Ability for people to create plug ins and customize the interface ie. SageMC

[flashbacck]

I've been using Sage since v2, but I've recently been thinking of trying other media center solutions like Windows 7 MC. There are a few reasons, the primary being performance and stability seems to be poorer these days. Frequent Wheel Of Deaths and UI hangs are frustrating, and I just don't have the heart to sit around and diagnose the problem.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by flashbacck

I've been using Sage since v2, but I've recently been thinking of trying other media center solutions like Windows 7 MC. There are a few reasons, the primary being performance and stability seems to be poorer these days. Frequent Wheel Of Deaths and UI hangs are frustrating, and I just don't have the heart to sit around and diagnose the problem.

That's weird, I was just thinking how much more stable Sage is than ever before. I had a problem for awhile due to Java 12 update that f'ed everything up, but otherwise all is right with the world. All restarts to Sage in the last couple of months are solely due to beta/RC installs.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

That's weird, I was just thinking how much more stable Sage is than ever before. I had a problem for awhile due to Java 12 update that f'ed everything up, but otherwise all is right with the world. All restarts to Sage in the last couple of months are solely due to beta/RC installs.

It looks like flashbacck is using a PC-based client. It's been a long time since I've used a PC-based client on my primary TV (about 3 years), but when I did I experienced moderately frequent lockups. They've pretty much stopped now that I use extenders. So, I'm not sure how much of it is that Sage is more stable or that I'm just not exercising the part that isn't stable.

[Brent]

Well stability really can involve several things:
1. Server Hardware stability - I've been lucky although one nagging problem that I finally figured out a few months ago. A bad network card had been causing some issues for me.
2. Server Tuner stability - The HDHR went through some growing pains as I was testing the changes SageTV made on tuner lineups. But not a problem now and I LOVE the new lineup setup changes they've made. The Hauppauge HD-PVR used to be an issue for me but the combination of the last many beta cycles along with the latest Hauppauge driver AND firewire tuning have made the HD-PVR 98% trouble free! I leave the last 2% for the occasional cable box issue (not the HD-PVR's fault.)
3. Software stability - SageTV hasn't given me any bugs or issues I can think of for many months - even through the betas.
4. STV (UI) stability - SageMC has become mostly mature and Mike has handled any bugs I used to see.
5. Extender stability - Zero problems here even through the beta firmwares
6. PC Client stability - My client PC doesn't get used as much as it used to and I've recently begun to turn it off during the week, but no problems for months (knock on wood).


The following isn't directed at anyone, but it's some of the rules I think make your chances of trouble-free HTPCing more likely - hope it's useful to someone out there.

To reduce instances of problems I believe in the following:
1. Make sure your server is solely for HTPC serving, setup with enough memory & CPU to handle any transcoding & commercial detection you might do
2. Use Extenders whenever possible. You do give up a few things, but less can go wrong here - especially if you have multiple TVs connected to your Media Server. And it saves you money in the long-run on electricity costs too.
3. Keep your add-ons limited to the ones you really use. If you're having issues at all eliminate them while troubleshooting so you're positive they aren't part of the problem.
4. If you have the option, do beta updates on a secondary PC first.
5. Don't go installing every program and/or codec under the sun on your PCs.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

3. Software stability - SageTV hasn't given me any bugs or issues I can think of for many months - even through the betas.

You touched on this in your second section of your post, but I think its important to emphasize that a lot of software is involved in running Sage, particularly when you're also using a PC-based client. In the (distant) past we've seen problems with DirectX cause problems in Sage. As you suggested, Brent, I'm convinced video/audio decoders occasionally cause stability problems. The same could be said for splitters, although it seems like they usually just cause problems, rather than crashes. Then there's all your video card, sound card, network adapter, tuners, etc., drivers that have been known to cause problems.

In general, I call all of that part of the complete "system", although Sage is only responsible for a relatively small piece of it. There are so many pieces that its difficult to pinpoint stability problems to particular hardware devices or pieces of software.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by reggie14

There are so many pieces that its difficult to pinpoint stability problems to particular hardware devices or pieces of software.

Yep - totally agree. A true HTPC media system is a beast (in terms of things that can go wrong such as the many pieces of software, hardware, network connections etc). Which is why I've come to really believe extenders when well implemented help tremendously in reducing the software & hardware combination to make all things work. I know it's not for everyone, but it's been a great thing for me.

[nicholsona]

There are two interesting aspects to this post for me. The original question of why Sage vs. others, and then the issue of stability.

I first used BTV before ever trying Sage. I dropped them when the newest release won't support full-time time-shifting. That was a deal-breaker for me. I then tried SageTV and after getting used to the differences, I decided I even liked it better.

However, I had stability issues for years. After reading countless suggestions, I tried different motherboards (via chipsets were supposed to be a problem), versions of Java (a newer version was supposed to have problems), versions of Sage, updated firmware and capture card drivers, etc. I never had a perfectly stable system, though it was good enough.

Then I decided to put a sage system into the family room. I bought a dual capture card and put the old 100 and 150 into a new box. The problems went away and with the dual capture card (Haugpaugge PVR500?) I finally have a rock solid system. The new lower end system with the old PVR100 and PVR150 is actually more stable than it was before as well. So now I have a rock solid PVR with a dual tuner and a pretty solid PVR with a PVR100 and PRV150.

The point is that I never would have guessed that the two PVR cards were at the root of the problem. It wasn't really SageTV at all.