Curious... Why SageTV over Mediaportal (or other alternatives)??

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by emveepee

I would love to agree, I swear by extenders, however there are two forums here that prove that is not the case for everyone.

Strictly speaking, that's true. But, I don't think it accurately reflects the fact that people have had significantly fewer problems with playback on the extenders than with PC-based clients. Though they have their problems, the extenders really are great devices. I think perhaps biggest issue with them is that they either work or they don't. If there's a problem on a PC-client, sometimes there are workarounds you can do on your own. If there's a bug in an extender, you pretty much have to wait until Sage fixes it. Luckily pretty much all the bugs have been worked out.

To react to to OP's real point "honestly without that community I think Sage would be sorely lacking." you have to admit it is the community and not Narflex etal that keeps this going.

I agree. The community is a huge part of the Sage experience. I think a lot of SageTV support happens on these forums between users. I think a lot of people might not continue to use Sage if it wasn't for the add-ons that users have developed. The community has always been a big advantage of Sage, going back to when I started using Sage in 2003.

[Brent]

I think the extenders success (HD100 & HD200) are almost entirely due to SageTV (could be Narflex or others at SageTV) as far as how well the hardware works.

But I definitely think that overall SageTV's success continues due to the great community here. I think many 3rd party developers have been helped in some way by Jeff and others at SageTV though so I give SageTV some credit there as well. You know I don't think SageTV has a monopoly on good communities though. Microsoft has a pretty darn good community at GreenButton also though. Snapstream used to have a really good community, but they've left the consumer business alone so much most of those folks have left the forums. GBPVR & Meedios both have nice communities also, but very small.

If I were to rank the things I think SageTV has as advantages in the HTPC realm it would be like this:
1. Server/client setup
2. Extenders (HD200 and HD100 and even the tired old MVPs)
3. Community - tech savvy & helpful as well as awesome 3rd party plugins & UIs
4. Very responsive & enthusiast-friendly company - they still are profit based & don't necessarily respond to everyones wishes, but they are pretty good in my book

There are plenty of disadvantages also of course.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Given that the post order went you-me-you, I had reason to think you were responding to me.

I was responding to the topic of wMVP's which wasn't started by you although you certainly participated in it. Like I said, it wasn't intended to be directed towards anyone in particular - it was my feeble attempt to make a point along with my grumpiness thrown in. sorry if I overstepped my bounds - I didn't mean to.

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Strictly speaking, that's true. But, I don't think it accurately reflects the fact that people have had significantly fewer problems with playback on the extenders than with PC-based clients.

I recently installed XBMC for linux on my Asrock ION 330 and it did a better job on playback then my PCH from bare-metal in about 1/2 an hour. However, as I suspect you are talking WinPC clients, mpc hc can be pretty comprehensive and show what can be done.

Microsfot has realized that DirectShow is dead and Media Foundation is the future and WMC in Win 7 looks to be pretty good out of the box for mpeg playback. It's up to SageTV and GBPVR and the older clients to step up and start advancing or they won't compete. My feeling is that SageTV is the most likely to do this.

Martin

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

If I were to rank the things I think SageTV has as advantages in the HTPC realm it would be like this:
1. Server/client setup
2. Extenders (HD200 and HD100 and even the tired old MVPs)
3. Community - tech savvy & helpful as well as awesome 3rd party plugins & UIs
4. Very responsive & enthusiast-friendly company - they still are profit based & don't necessarily respond to everyones wishes, but they are pretty good in my book

I'd probably add some notion of flexibility to the list. This can mean lots of different things, but I like how you can mix and match platforms. I probably would have tried MythTV years ago (before the extenders) if they had a decent Windows client. With Sage you can use a combination of Mac, Linux and Windows (and WHS) systems and have the same user experience on all of them.

There are plenty of disadvantages also of course.

While I know you don't think Sage is perfect, this piqued my curiosity. What do you think are the big disadvantages, and what mitigates those disadvantages? The big ones that come to my mind are limited ways of getting premium HD cable, mitigated by the HD-PVR, and inconvenient official tech support, mitigated by the forums. Set up and configuration is probably a little too difficult, but they're making good progress (I'm a particularly big fan of the new changes to channel scanning and remapping).

[aflat]

Originally Posted by emveepee

I recently installed XBMC for linux on my Asrock ION 330 and it did a better job on playback then my PCH from bare-metal in about 1/2 an hour. However, as I suspect you are talking WinPC clients, mpc hc can be pretty comprehensive and show what can be done.

Microsfot has realized that DirectShow is dead and Media Foundation is the future and WMC in Win 7 looks to be pretty good out of the box for mpeg playback. It's up to SageTV and GBPVR and the older clients to step up and start advancing or they won't compete. My feeling is that SageTV is the most likely to do this.

Martin

Actually I think MS has to step up too. What they call an extender is sorely lacking. There are way too many limitations on it, which is why I think people came to Sage int eh first place. No BD playback, no >4gb file, no mkv without transcoding (among other formats) these are some features that they need to address, things that Sage has. MS has gotten the UI down, but if you need a whole house solution with extenders, the UI shouldn't be the only deciding factor. Unfortunately many times it is, which is a big reason why VMC is so popular, well that and Netflix helps too, I do wish Sage would get on the Netflix bandwagon, it's a fun ride.

[stlbearboy]

One more reason that has really been improved and come in handy for me lately is the automatic conflict resolution, HD recording preferences and bad recording rescheduling. There is no way I am going back to manually needing to handle conflicts.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stlbearboy

There is no way I am going back to manually needing to handle conflicts.

What were you using before? I thought conflict resolution was one of the defining characteristics of a DVR. Of course, Sage is my first and only DVR, so maybe that's why I thought that...

What did you mean by HD recording preferences? That Sage will first attempt to record something in HD, then fall back to SD if necessary?

[valnar]

Originally Posted by reggie14

What did you mean by HD recording preferences? That Sage will first attempt to record something in HD, then fall back to SD if necessary?

Sage will prefer an HD tuner if available.

[stlbearboy]

Originally Posted by reggie14

What were you using before? I thought conflict resolution was one of the defining characteristics of a DVR. Of course, Sage is my first and only DVR, so maybe that's why I thought that...

What did you mean by HD recording preferences? That Sage will first attempt to record something in HD, then fall back to SD if necessary?

When you have too many favorites scheduled for the same time period Sage will automatically try to schedule different airings to get around the conflict. This is especially useful when you have a limited amount of tuners (HDPVRs in my case). GBPVR and I think Vista Media Center will notify you of the conflict but you have to reschedule your recordings around it.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by reggie14

While I know you don't think Sage is perfect, this piqued my curiosity. What do you think are the big disadvantages, and what mitigates those disadvantages?

Well that list is tough. Because many of it's disadvantages are true of all HTPC software programs. But I can give it a good start:

1. The default UI (the one that comes installed when you first download) is stinky. My wife puts it this way: "there is NO WAY I would put up with that on my TV!." I don't think it's all that bad as there are plenty of good things about the default UI, but I do agree it isn't for the average HTPC user. SageTV needs an update of the UI look as well as how the default UI works imo. I don't expect a bunch of animations or super flashiness (whatever that means) but I do think it can be better - much better in its default form. Fortunately we SageTV users have many awesome customizations available to us - thanks to Studio & some great developers. Disclaimer: Many LOVE the current default UI - to each his own of course.
2. Small company - this is really a double-edged sword. On one hand being a small company means that company when well-focused will answer the enthusiasts needs faster and better than the behemoths we know as Microsoft and Apple. That's true mostly because those 2 companies see HTPCs and the like as a very small puddle of profit potential compared to the rest of their universe. But a small company doesn't have equal opportunities to make deals with hardware manufacturers, content providers or custom installers like the biggies do
3. Music & Photos are lacking in SageTV. It's currently a fact. Microsoft is better at it right now. Fortunately there are some 3rd party add-ons that keep SageTV in the chase here and I have hopes we'll see some major improvement in this area for the next iteration of SageTV (SageTV7) so we'll see. But right now I think these 2 areas are lacking for SageTV.
4. Access to encrypted content - SageTV doesn't have CableCard or Satellite TV tuners (I only include Satellite tuners because I think we'll see one or more for MediaCenter next year with W7). SageTV DOES have the Hauppauge HD-PVR which in my opinion is mostly better because it avoids stupid decisions by the cable companies & content providers to DRM or copy-protect-flag the content and therefore complicate matters. The HD-PVR is a great device & w/it's current driver & SageTV's latest software versions it's nearly perfect. But it requires a cable box (1 per HD-PVR) & either an IR blaster or firewire for channel changing which is a turnoff for many.
5. Setup isn't always easy - This area is getting better and fast. Setup used to be a major pita, but the SageTV has been focusing on improving this & it's beginning to show. I don't see this as a disadvantage versus the competition, but more as an overall HTPC disadvantage now.
6. Lots of options & configuration - I hesitate to put this out there as I personally WANT lots of options & configuration. I don't want the iPod of HTPCs and only have it one way - their way. But it makes things more complicated for those that don't want to take the time to learn it and that is a disadvantage for some.
7. SageTV is a for-profit company - Another two-edged sword. I think this is a good thing, but many just don't think its worth it to have to pay for their software. I shake my head over this because the software is some of the cheapest components of the HTPC usually, but I know some are going as cheap as they can & some prefer true-open-source. I think for-profit can be a good thing because if you have a well-run company, those running the company have a good incentive to continue improving the product - something that should be a win-win for all of us.

That's a pretty decent list I think. You see, I most definitely do not think SageTV is perfect. Shoot, I don't even think it's the best one for everyone. But I do think (this is only my opinion of course) that SageTV is THE BEST HTPC program for those that want a Home Media Server setup - one with multiple TVs all connected to a single media server in the home. Snapstream's BeyondTV used to come close in the TV-part of this equation, but really SageTV has this one wrapped up at the moment. MS MediaCenter is nice for a single TV, but screws it up with the current lack of extender options and lack of Server/Client arrangement. Plus it appears like MS won't do the Hauppauge HD-PVR without a 3rd party hack as they seem to have caved to the media companies on that one.
GB-PVR is nice, but too small, slow with new updates. It's a good option for those wanting free software & not worried about a fairly small community & a mostly one-person development team.
MediaPortal is good as long as you don't care about TV - Same thing for XBMC although that team is making very good progress with "integrating" other software PVRs with its HTPC program. There are others of course, but you get the idea. I see SageTV as the best option for those who have the know-how & want the best whole-home HTPC server with the best integrated extenders. But it's far from perfect which is why I'm so glad they push out updates so often

Whew, another long post - sorry.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

3. Music & Photos are lacking in SageTV. It's currently a fact. Microsoft is better at it right now. Fortunately there are some 3rd party add-ons that keep SageTV in the chase here and I have hopes we'll see some major improvement in this area for the next iteration of SageTV (SageTV7) so we'll see. But right now I think these 2 areas are lacking for SageTV.

That's a good list. I'm curious about this point. Sage support for music (and, to a lesser extent, photos) is somewhat of a controversial point, with some people thinking Sage shouldn't devote much time to it (suggesting people use things like Squeezebox instead), and some people thinking Sage really needs to improve in this area. But, this is one area where Sage has a feature that BeyondTV doesn't have.

Still, I agree this is an area where Sage trails behind Microsoft. Since I regularly use the music feature, I'm interested in ways to improve it. While I really like SageMC for TV and video, I think its music interface is actually a step down from the stock UI's. Are there other [extender-friendly] plugins that you think improves music functionality?

BTW, a big advantage of Sage being a commercial company is that it makes it possible to include good integration with EPG data. As someone that started using Sage before it had complete guide data for the US (and thus had to mess around with XMLTV), that's huge! I'm not sure which was a happier moment for me- the UI improvements from v1.4 to v2, or when I found out Sage expanded EPG data to cover the whole US.

[PAF]

Not sure what the whole hoopla about wireless but I certainly have a bad opinion of wireless in the realm of video streaming... Wired >>>> Wireless.

As far as disadvantages go... I think the list is about right.
1. The default UI is the achilles heel of sage. I'm not saying it is horrible but I am saying that many people are turned off because of it and that is evidence enough that it does not work well. I understand that usability and "pretty factor" do not necessarily go together, but that does not mean it cannot be done. Microsoft is pretty darn good at this and for a good reason... they have a lot of money to throw at this. But if you look at XBMC, they don't have "a lot of money" and some of those UIs look pretty darn good. Sage NEEDS to correct this. Asking questions like "well, what is wrong with the current UI" comes off as a defensive question does not help because the fact is, it is a turn off. I also understand that the extenders do not have 3D processing power but that was Sage's decision and they need to work around this as is was, obviosuly, a conscious decision not to include a 3D processor. (how much would it really add to the extender to have a 3D process from 2 generations ago like the original xbox?) In the words of Saturday Night Live, "Fix it! Fix! It!"

3. Music and Photos... Photos need to be fixed. Presentation and interaction need to be improved. I am sure lots of people use this feature to show pictures of vacations, events, etc. and a simple browser with a click for slideshow does not do the job. Smoother transitions (fading, overlap), zooming and panning of pictures while displaying the picture, perhaps integration with 3rd party software like adobe elements or google picasa for orientation and picture correction WILL go a long way. With the transition to digital pictures, crowding around computers is a crappy way to show pictures and with the gain in HDTVs, watching pictures on the big screen is a very nice feature when done right.

Music... I am on the fence with this one. I initially though it would be a great thing to have music integrated into Sage. It may still be true for, say, playlists for pictures or simply ambient music but with bigger and bigger music libraries, it is difficult to effectively manage importing and searching in Sage. I have a library of 30,000 music files and it takes a long time to import and searching is a pain. I asked how this can be improved and I have a hard time figuring this out without having a keyboard. In fact, I simply dropped music from SageTV and use a series of Airport Express Devices, airfoil and a laptop or a netbook...

5. Ease of Setup. SageTV is easy to setup to use stock UI and stock features. TSageTV in stock is not that much of an improvement when it comes to a weighed total against media center... The customizations are what makes SageTV shine (kinda like the Android OS for mobile phones). The
problem is that installation of these customization is difficult and you can do some real damage to the reliability to the Software and it is even more difficult to remove those customizations.

Features I would like to see Sage add/modified to get a lead in the HTPC realm...

1. The UI, the ui, the ui. fix the OSD (it looks primitive and takes up way too much screen real estate), fix the transitions (they are choppy and primitive), fix the overall feel (it feels like the different menu areas were pieced together).
2. Build an installer for customizations. This would eliminate much of the "stability issues" because it would create a unified way of installing customization so there would be no user error and if there was an issue with the customization, there is an easy way to remove it.

Some other stuff that would increase satisfaction would be...
Add hardware support for wireless keyboards for the extender...
Social Networking integration...
Netflix integration...
Use extenders as an Airfoil speaker or as a Airport Express speaker. (long shot, I know...)

[tchapin]

I was a long-time TiVo customer, from roughly 2000 / 2001 until 2007. We loved the TiVo, but there were a few reasons I was looking to switch to something new:

- better, cheaper multi-room support. With Tivo, I basically had to buy a separate computer (a Tivo) for each room. That also involved additional subscription expenses for each unit. Also, the "sharing" between units was not streaming, but it would copy the program to the unit you wanted to watch it on. Also, each unit would maintain it's own favorites and recording lists and there was no way to centrally manage them.

- better integration of videos, photos and music. I had bought two of those early networked DVD players (by GoVideo) and they worked ok for music and photos, but very poorly for videos. Also, Tivo's support for media from a server never really impressed me.

The reasons why I chose Sage over other options:
- solid PVR experience
- extender support (I still record with one 150 and support 3 MVPs)
- SageMC STV (if the default UI was the only choice, I would not have purchased Sage. For me, it's not a "flashyness" issue, it's a usability issue. You can tell that the default UI was designed by programmers and not UI designers just from the way things are organized.)
- the strong community
- plugins - while I don't run many (Placeshifter toolbar, JRMC, perhaps one other), the fact that they are available is great.

My experience has been that Sage has been really solid for me. Upgrades have gone well. I haven't had any software outages. My MVPs have started to act a little flakey when being powered on. The SageTV server process memory usage is very high (I've seen it as high as 500MB.).

Overall, I'm pleased with Sage, but there are a few things that keep me from being ecstatic with it. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's the best option out there.
- music support is lacking, especially with regards to playlists and smart playlists. I have the JRMC plugin and that solves some of the issues, but it's slow and I'd prefer not to have to rely on a plugin + another piece of software. I'm currently considering getting Sonos.
- Sage as a company does not seem to be terribly friendly or organized. The website is a mess and needs to be redone. The product naming scheme is a mess and needs to be redone. There are many posts to the forum about questions which should be able to be easily answered on the SageTV website. Tivo is a company that generally does a great job of communicating with their customers. Admittedly, not always perfect. And yes, Sage is a small company (although how many employees do they have?) and they are dedicated to working on improving the product so they do not have time for outreach.
- Support is adequate. I've only used them once or twice. The delay with emails can be frustrating. There should be an option for paid phone support.
- Product licensing needs to be cleaned up. Since each SageTV installation phones home, you should be able to swap out a Windows license to Mac to Linux. Plus the whole Placeshifter / MVP / client licensing issue.
- plugin support. There's no separate development environment from your SageTV installation unless you purchase another license for the software. I suppose that could be considered the cost of the SDK. Also, the fact that each STV needs to have a different set of plugins really complicates things. Plugins can make your installation really unstable. Finding, installing, and keeping them up to date is non-trivial.
- The settings / options menus are confusing and complicated. There's no distinction between settings which will effect only your current UI environment vs global SageTV settings.
- The mysteries of the wiz.bin file and how losing it can hose your whole history and all that, yet there are no real diagnosis and repair tools. The only real solution is to keep frequent backups of your file.
- Things in the product still seem oriented towards using your SageTV computer connected to the computer, even though extenders are better and easier. I'd love to see some stats about what % of customers use extenders.
- The trial period for the product is stingy. It should be longer because if things go easily, it's enough time, but if they don't, it's not long enough. Also, if one is comparing products during the trial period, you will definitely want more time.
- If you have more than one extender of the same type, there's no easy way to have the same setup between them without doing things manually.

Things that would be interesting:
- The SageTV manual should be online. Including video tutorials could be interesting and helpful.
- I've love to have better, easier integration with iTunes / iPod / iPhone. Transcode and cut commercials and queue up a video to add to my iPhone would be great.
- iPhone remote control and access to my media. For the latter, I currently use Orb, which is adequate, but I'd rather
- How large is Sage's customer base? 1k? 10k? How representative are we, the forum posters, of the customer base? They know how many active installations there are of their software, since it phones home.


I'm sure that some of my issues are because I use SageMC and it's not updated as frequently and exposes Sage's functionality in different ways and cannot necessarily take advantage of all the most update things in Sage. I'm excited for it's replacement!


Whew!

[freedml]

I know it's tempting, but you can't really compare SageTV with Tivo or standalone DVRs which are mature consumer products. You plug them in and they work. They may not work exactly the way you want, but they do what they do reliably.

SageTV is very customizable and so can do many things just the way you want them, but it just doesn't necessarily do them reliably or without tinkering or handholding. SageTV may be the best solution of its kind, but it's not nearly at the 'consumer product' level yet.

[tchapin]

SageTV's been around for how many years, 7? How long does it take to become a mature product? It's on the 6th major revision.

I'd say that SageTV is much more mature than many of the standalone DVRs out there. I've seen spme of the ATT and FiOS ones, which are terrible.

[freedml]

I don't consider anything HTPC to be a 'consumer' product yet. Any product where you have to edit properties files or frequently upgrade to 'beta' versions to get it to work is not a stable consumer product. And any product which has to have the plug pulled on a regular basis to operate normally is not yet a 'consumer' product (HD200).

[stanger89]

Make sure you report those issues to support.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Make sure you report those issues to support.

Speaking of which, I'll add one thing to my list of advantages and disadvantages of Sage. And this is something that is both an advantage and a disadvantage.

Reporting problems and bugs. In some ways its great. You can often work directly with the lead (only?) developer to fix problems you're having. You're basically considered a partner in the software development process.

Of course, the problem is you're basically considered a partner in the software development process. Sage will ask you to do things that other software companies wouldn't dream of asking their customers to do. Those of you that have done troubleshooting on your HD100/200 extenders with Sage support probably know exactly what I'm talking about.

Is that a problem? Maybe, maybe not. I think it works well for Sage (and its customers) with the niche that it has carved out, but it limits who I think are suitable customers for Sage products.

[freedml]

I've reported it over and over again. I had a worse issue which it took ME months to figure out. Tech support kept thinking and still thinks that it's a problem with my network switch and I have done testing which convinces me that it's not. Even if there is a problem with my network, that's no excuse for the HD200 to be unable to turn off and on from the remote and require the user to pull the plug (just about daily in my case) to get back to normal operation (without powering down the switch or anything else, further evidence it's not the network).