Curious... Why SageTV over Mediaportal (or other alternatives)??

[Brent]

The MVPs with SageTV worked better than any other MVP solution imo. I tried them all. Wireless for SD video is okay but even then not to be trusted 100%. Wireless for HD is always a bad idea - Always.

None of that has anything to do with SageTV and how well it works. It has everything to do with how you set it up and your expectations given your setup. It's mostly the same with any HTPC solution today.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

The MVPs with SageTV worked better than any other MVP solution imo. I tried them all. Wireless for SD video is okay but even then not to be trusted 100%. Wireless for HD is always a bad idea - Always.

Why do you say that, Brent? I understand stanger when he says wireless is always bad. But, I don't understand why you'd say it's OK for SD but not for HD. Partly I'm just assuming you're saying 802.11g is OK for SD (since we were talking about the wMVP), which maybe you weren't saying. Assuming that is what you're saying, I don't see why 802.11n would be that much worse for HD than 802.11g is for SD. I would think it would be better for two reasons: 1) there's less interference in the 5Ghz band, and 2) practical bandwidth utilization is actually lower for HD on 802.11n than SD on 802.11g. There's actually several people on this forum that use the same WNDEB111 bridge that I use to stream to HD extenders, and I haven't heard anyone indicate they've had a problem.

Of course, if you think only 802.11n is suitable for SD, then that's another story.

Part of it I think is that I'm willing to tolerate less reliability with wireless, partly because I have to, and partly because, in the grand scheme of things, it's not terribly noticeable compared to all the other little things that come up. There's already a bunch of different things that can go wrong. Sometimes my HD200 decides it wants to act up. Sometimes my cable box decides to act up. Sometimes Comcast decides it's going to stop working for a few hours. Once a month or so my server decides to lock up (probably from sgraphrecorder, or maybe the firestb drivers). And, there's completely normal things, like blips between live TV episodes. I'm sure some people experience problems with wireless that don't just end up as background noise in the grand scheme of things, but I haven't experienced them.

But again, of course I'd never recommend wireless over wired. When I used to do construction work building and remodeling homes over the summer and I always strongly recommended to clients that they should run networking cable to every room. The electrician we worked with usually ran a single line that had 2 coaxial and 2 cat5e cables into each room. But, sometimes you can't run wire where you want them, particularly if you're in an apartment or condo. I don't mind running wire along floorboards, but that wasn't going to be enough when I moved into a larger apartment so now I have two wired networks that are joined with an 802.11n bridge (the bedrooms aren't wired for cable, otherwise I probably would have went with MoCA). And, I think that's a good option for people that have similar problems running wire, as long as they know they get pretty good performance and range on their 802.11n router tested from a laptop.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Why do you say that, Brent? I understand stanger when he says wireless is always bad. But, I don't understand why you'd say it's OK for SD but not for HD.

If you have a choice & can in any way wire instead of using wireless, that is what you should do. Why? Because unless all outside elements (interference, distance from access point, other things that cause occasional drops) are not present, you will have trouble at some point viewing video over the air.

I say SD is "okay" (note I didn't say great or even good) compared to HD, it's simply less data over the wireless "pipe." Yes G is okay only for SD. N is probably your best bet for HD although I still would avoid it if you have the choice.

So I'm not saying wireless won't work or anything like that. I'm just saying it should be a last resort kind of thing.

NOTE: I'm currently testing a Belkin Powerline Gigabit connection in my home with mixed results. It could work for some people facing this issue. I'll also test the coming-soon Wireless N USB stick when it's available for the HD200. Maybe it will work fine in my home and others - But where I have the choice I still prefer to go with the wired even if it means some fishtape work

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by Brent

The MVPs with SageTV worked better than any other MVP solution imo. I tried them all. Wireless for SD video is okay but even then not to be trusted 100%. Wireless for HD is always a bad idea - Always.

None of that has anything to do with SageTV and how well it works. It has everything to do with how you set it up and your expectations given your setup. It's mostly the same with any HTPC solution today.

It seems that if one of the prime reasons for choosing SageTV over others is extenders I think wireless needs to be addressed because SageTV sells the hardware too. The wMVP is a terrible wireless device, and I hope SageTV don't repeat history.

That being said I've never found a good wireless extender. My experience with the PCH has not been good and after some prodding they did add some notes on the corporate web site like, "Streaming video over WiFi under best condition only able to achieve up to 10Mbps." and "If enabling WiFi with a dongle, even with the latest router with 802.11n specs, do not expect to be able to stream anything. in reality you will be able to stream SD xvid and if lucky low bitrate 720p TV rips" I wasn't so lucky. It's not really SD/HD either it is bitrate. I am hoping that SageTV will be as honest, frankly the forums posts are meaningless, because you always end up with the 'it works great for me" posts.

I would challenge the MVP SageTV combination versus mvpmc GBPVR too especially on Vista. But I am biased because I wrote the client and I demand internet radio on my extenders.

Martin

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

I say SD is "okay" (note I didn't say great or even good) compared to HD, it's simply less data over the wireless "pipe." Yes G is okay only for SD. N is probably your best bet for HD although I still would avoid it if you have the choice.

I am in no way shape or form disagreeing that wireless is a last resort (well, I might say it comes before powerline networking, in certain situations).

It just seems like, in general (and we're really working in generalities here), HD over 802.11n would probably work better than SD over 802.11g. Why? Because HD actually fills the 802.11n pipe a little less than SD fills the 802.11g pipe (in terms of realistic wireless performance, not theoretical). 802.11n has about 80mbps of realistic performance, versus 24mbps for 802.11g. *If* you're doing SD at 3 gigs/hr (I think 2gig/hr looks bad), then SD is about 6.5mbps, and HD is about 18mbps. Also, the 2.4Ghz spectrum is significantly more crowded right now. Unless you use 802.11a, which almost nobody has, then only way you're going to avoid that interface is using the 5Ghz band of 802.11n.

Continuous external interference will kill both, and short bursts of interference will impact the SD stream more than the HD stream, since 802.11g is running closer to capacity.

I'm by no means sure of this analysis. There very well might be a good reason to think HD streaming over 802.11n is less reliable than SD streaming over 802.11g, I just don't see what it is. It might simply be that in practice it doesn't work as well, for reasons that are difficult to enumerate.

Of course, emveepee's assessment of the current wireless extender situation doesn't bode well for the HD200's wireless dongle support. I think the performance of USB dongles doesn't compare well to other wireless products, like standalone bridges. So, it's fairly likely that once we get official HD200 wireless support, people will still be better off buying standalone bridges (if they have to use wireless). i wonder how the C200 extender's wireless performance will be.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Perhaps. Certainly the quality of the wireless components were Hauppauge's fault and not Sage's. I think Sage did sell both the wireless and the wired MVP, so I'm not completely convinced they would have omitted wireless in the first place. If memory serves, they did continue to sell the wired MVP after they pulled the wMVP, indicating to me they lost confidence in the ability of the wMVP to work as it was supposed to.

The wMVP came out quite a while after Sage added support for the "normal" MVP. When it came out, it either worked with Sage out of the box or was trivial to add support for so Sage did. Also, Sage already sold the normal MVP and they added the wMVP to the store as well.

The MVP/wMVP are not Sage built devices, they are 3rd party devices that Sage supports. Like I said above, I think wMVP support came about primarily because Sage already had support for the normal MVP. So it's not like Sage "chose" to support wireless, or intentionally brought a wireless product to market, they sort of had a wireless extender thrust on them, and they learned, in short order, that you just can't trust wireless.

[reggie14]

Sage sold the wMVP in their store, didn't they? I'm not 100% sure, but I think they did. I also think they stopped selling the wMVP before they stopped selling the wired MVP, but I'm even less sure of that.

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by stanger89

So it's not like Sage "chose" to support wireless, or intentionally brought a wireless product to market, they sort of had a wireless extender thrust on them, and they learned, in short order, that you just can't trust wireless.

Completely untrue, it was totally their choice and they choose to respond to the market. Sage had to rewrite their custom software that runs on the wMVP, it isn't close to the dongle that Hauppauge distributes. It runs on a different version of linux kernel with different wireless drivers that are available only from SageTV, so is definitely not-Hauppauge (I have seen some mvpmc code in it though).

They must have known during their testing that it wasn't a great solution, but I have only seen negative comments from users.

Martin

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Sage sold the wMVP in their store, didn't they? I'm not 100% sure, but I think they did. I also think they stopped selling the wMVP before they stopped selling the wired MVP, but I'm even less sure of that.

True, they did sell them but as you note, they stopped when it was clear they weren't working well.

Originally Posted by emveepee

Completely untrue, it was totally their choice and they choose to respond to the market. Sage had to rewrite their custom software that runs on the wMVP, it isn't close to the dongle that Hauppauge distributes. It runs on a different version of linux kernel with different wireless drivers that are available only from SageTV, so is definitely not-Hauppauge (I have seen some mvpmc code in it though).

What I'm saying is Hauppauge developed and brought the wMVP to market, not Sage. Sage didn't seek to develop a wireless extender (not that we know of). Sage, logically, added support for it since there was lots of clamoring for wireless, and it was essentially the same a the normal MVP they already supported. Obviously Sage's MVP code is much different from Hauppauge's, but I seriously doubt there's much difference (other than the network drivers) between Sage's wired and wireless MVP code.

[reggie14]

stanger-

I think emveepee and I were both taking issue with your assertion that Sage didn't "choose" to support wireless. wMVP support required a server and extender update, which Sage chose to do, and Sage chose to sell the wMVP in their store and to advertise it (I'm pretty sure on their front page, even).

Of course, as you note, people were clamoring for wireless, so it made perfect sense for them to do those things. I'm not trying to criticize Sage for their decision to support and sell the wMVP. I thought they were pretty responsible. It's too bad their internal testing didn't show that it had pretty horrendous wireless performance (I really think it should have, but who knows), but at least they pulled it when it was clear it couldn't live up to its expectations.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by reggie14

stanger-

I think emveepee and I were both taking issue with your assertion that Sage didn't "choose" to support wireless. wMVP support required a server and extender update, which Sage chose to do, and Sage chose to sell the wMVP in their store and to advertise it (I'm pretty sure on their front page, even).

What I basically mean is, how do I put this... Had Hauppauge not brought out a wMVP, I doubt Sage would have sought a wireless solution, or if Sage handn't supported the wired MVP already, I doubt they'd have supported the wMVP.

To put it another way, I think one of the primary reasons the wMVP was supported was the MVP already was, and they're basically the same device (save network).

Of course, as you note, people were clamoring for wireless, so it made perfect sense for them to do those things. I'm not trying to criticize Sage for their decision to support and sell the wMVP. I thought they were pretty responsible. It's too bad their internal testing didn't show that it had pretty horrendous wireless performance (I really think it should have, but who knows), but at least they pulled it when it was clear it couldn't live up to its expectations.

It just goes to show you just how unpredictable wireless is. It's quite likely it worked reasonably well in their private testing. But being a small company there's only so much they can do.

[Brent]

Just wondering what this talk of the wMVP has to do with the topic of the thread. And no, wireless isn't a great option unless it's your only choice. Why does it matter that SageTV sold the wMVP through their store? Especially now... SageTV supports YouTube playback. Does that mean SageTV is responsible for the horrible quality and content on YouTube?

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

JWhy does it matter that SageTV sold the wMVP through their store?

I agree we're way off topic... In any event, I think it does matter that Sage sold the wMVP through their store. That's basically Sage's endorsement that it will work. I'd say similar things about other sellers, like Newegg, Best Buy, MicroCenter, etc. Though, I think it's particularly true with Sage, as they were saying it would work in a particular use case, streaming live/record TV wirelessly. They said so in their advertisements, such as this one. It wasn't even like they just copied Hauppauge's marketing material, like Newegg likely did. Sage clearly did internal testing and wrote marketing materials that said it would work, without any kind of warning about wireless performance. I see that as a significantly different thing than if they would have, for instance, supported it, but avoided selling it or making any official statements basically saying it would work.

Really, I don't think it's even terribly different than if Sage made the wMVP themselves. Sure, we knew it was a Hauppauge product, but it was Sage branded. Sage didn't call it a Hauppauge wireless MVP in its store, they called it the SageTV Wireless Media Extender. That's basically the same thing as the HD100/HD200, except that Sage is the only seller of those products.

But again, I think what Sage did with the wMVP was relatively responsible. Occasionally products will slip through that don't work as planned. When that happens the right thing to do is the pull the product, which exactly what Sage did. If memory serves, there weren't any problems with people attempting to return wMVPs that didn't work as advertised.

Hopefully Sage doesn't fall into this mess again by selling USB dongles in its store. I think it makes more sense to let people buy them from other sources. I don't think very many people will use it anyway.

[Brent]

I'm tired - very tired after this weekend, & I had this 10 paragraph response to that crazy talk. But i give up. Some will never be happy. That kind of logic would keep a company from supporting HTPCs in general imo And MS, GBPVR, Apple and others all could fall into that same silly trap. I'd rather see them do cutting edge stuff then avoid something because it doesn't work for everyone.

Again, this has nothing to do with the original poster's question.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

I had this 10 paragraph response to that crazy talk. But i give up. Some will never be happy.

I never said I was unhappy. Quite the contrary. I've been saying I thought Sage handled it well.

Though, I don't understand why you're calling it "crazy talk". If you're going to make that accusation you at least owe me a response.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by reggie14

If you're going to make that accusation you at least owe me a response.

I don't owe anyone anything here. My comment didn't quote anyone or really address anyone directly so sorry if you or anyone else took it that way.

But I do think inferring SageTV (or Frey back in the day) did something wrong by selling the Hauppauge eMVP in their store and branding it with their name. For instance, they sell the Hauppauge HD-PVR in their store now. Some have great difficulty with it, but it is such a great device - something that makes HTPCing really worth it when it all works (like it is for me right now) that I would be very disappointed if they didn't support it - think Microsoft cause they are not getting "official" support for the HD-PVR according to what I'm hearing and I'm pretty sure their users will be unhappy about that. Maybe I'm just grumpy after working for 14 days straight, but this discussion just sort of nudged me.

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by Brent

Again, this has nothing to do with the original poster's question.

I usually just post to try to correct errors in what people are saying since I am not a SageTV user. A thread like this in a SageTV user forums, is bound to be biased, but just look back and freedml was challenged rather than accepting his comments as one opinion it opened a debate. I remember being jumped on when I said that the HD100 didn't deserve as high a review score as some of you did, (somewhat ironic now because the the HD200 probably deserves better than 6/10 I will need to read the review) and I think that while this forum can be very useful and I agree with the OP that is what makes SageTV a success, IMO an HTPC is not an appliance, yet there is a fanboy attitude that doesn't allow very open discussion on this key point.

Martin

[Brent]

Originally Posted by emveepee

IMO an HTPC is not an appliance, yet there is a fanboy attitude that doesn't allow very open discussion on this key point.

Martin

I agree. An HTPC is not an appliance. But an extender really is mostly.


The original post asked this:

I'm just wondering what it is that keeps many of you attached to Sage...

I think he wants to know why we did or did not choose SageTV - in particular vs. MediaPortal.
I chose it because while MediaPortal has nice plugins and themes, it is very flakey for TV and the EPG support is less than ideal for my setup.

I think the extender concept (which does work much as an appliance) is a very big advantage SageTV has over all other HTPC software programs. For most people (not all...) the HD200 just works. Disclaimer: avoid wireless if you have a choice.

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by Brent

I agree. An HTPC is not an appliance. But an extender really is mostly.

I would love to agree, I swear by extenders, however there are two forums here that prove that is not the case for everyone. To react to to OP's real point "honestly without that community I think Sage would be sorely lacking." you have to admit it is the community and not Narflex etal that keeps this going.

Martin

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

I don't owe anyone anything here. My comment didn't quote anyone or really address anyone directly so sorry if you or anyone else took it that way.

Given that the post order went you-me-you, I had reason to think you were responding to me. I apologize for the misunderstanding if it wasn't to me, but it seems like it was.

But I do think inferring SageTV (or Frey back in the day) did something wrong by selling the Hauppauge eMVP in their store and branding it with their name. For instance, they sell the Hauppauge HD-PVR in their store now. Some have great difficulty with it, but it is such a great device - something that makes HTPCing really worth it when it all works (like it is for me right now)

I think its important to note that the HD-PVR isn't branded as a Sage product.

I'm not really sure where you're getting this idea that I think Sage did something particularly wrong by selling the wMVP (if indeed you are referring to me). Sure, I think there testing probably should have caught its problems sooner, but as stanger pointed out, as far as we know it passed Sage's tests. In other words, Sage isn't losing any "points" in my mind for selling the wMVP.

Maybe in some ways I have a different level of expectation for new products. When I say I considered the Sage-branding and sale of the wMVP as an endorsement of its performance, I don't think its a problem if some didn't work. I think the endorsement just means Sage had to stand by the product's advertisements, and accept returns when it didn't work as advertised. As far as I know, Sage did that. Maybe that explanation helps put into context my previous posts. Looking back I can understand why someone might think I was being quite critical of Sage when I said they were promising the wMVP would work. Really I just meant I think it makes Sage responsible when it doesn't.

So, I don't really expect 100% of products to work. I just expect that a high enough percentage of them work such that the manufacturers and stores wouldn't mind dealing with the trouble caused by returns on the ones that don't. That is a rather simplistic explanation, but probably accurately describes my thoughts to a first approximation.

Maybe I'm just grumpy after working for 14 days straight, but this discussion just sort of nudged me.

Apparently I have that effect... Really, truly, honestly, I'm not trying... I don't know what else to say. The surprising thing is I really didn't even think I was being critical of Sage here...

With that I'll be done on this subject. I just wanted to to clarify my thoughts because I think some of my posts were unclear and may have been misinterpreted. People can PM if they want to say anything else, but I agree with Brent that we should try to put this thread back on topic.