PVR-250 Highest Quality not good enough?

[rak306]

I only have 3 hrs using SageTV but I have quality issues.

My setup is:

Asus P4R800-VM motherboard with built in ATI 9200 Radeon graphics with TV out
2.4 G Celeron
512 meg RAM
80 gig, 7200 RPM HD
PVR-250
50" Pioneer Elete Projection TV

High signal quality analog Cable TV split 2:1. One 75 ohm direct to the TV (no cable box), one to the PVR-250.

I don't care all that much about record time, but superb record quality is required. I have the PVR-250 recording set to the highest setting of 5.6 Gbyte/hr, and while the output is pretty good (better than VCR), it is quite "soft", looking like it has lost some of the resolution vs direct to the TV.

There is no skipping of any issues like that. CPU util is around 20%-30%, Disk under 5%.

There are also some subtle effects, that are acceptable to me, e.g. basketball games look like they were filmed vs live.

But the loss of image detail is not acceptable. Basically I don't want to be able to tell the difference: direct to the TV vs PVR.

Questions:

1) Am I asking too much.

2) Would a PVR-350 with hardware for the MPEG to Video output improve the picture?

3) Are there other settings to try?

Ultimately I wanted to have the PVR-250 doing the capture and recording, while sending the video via 100 ethernet to a media MVP running SageTV client (if/when that becomes available). So the output quality of my ATI 9200 graphics is mute, as long as either the PVR-350 or media MVP output quality is acceptable.

But so far, while the output quality is pretty good, it's not good enough for me.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Rick

[jptaz]

Does it look soft on the Computer monitor?
Frequently TV Out on video cards cause this softening.

I use 2GB/HR and do not see this softening.
My TV Out is using NVdia FX5200 with Display set to 720x480 with Full overscan.
I found that many Video out settings look soft with 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768. The Native resolution of TV is 720x480.

Hope this helps,
John

[jptaz]

Also the PVR 350 out would be better than a Video Card with TV Out.

But this assumes that when looking the Video on your computer monitor you are happy with the Video quality. But make sure that the aspect ratio is set to source and not fill or force 4:3 as this will stretch the image instead of showing a 1 to 1 pixel mapping.

John

[fidget]

If you want to have the picture look like a direct TV signal, you will need a hardware decoder. I have a PVR-350 driving my TV set and it looks just like the direct feed. My -350 is in a dedicated PC (a VIA EPIA-M based machine) that only contains the -350. This way I don't have the conflicts with chipset versions that is possible between the PVR-250 and -350.

Currently, IMHO, the best solution for TV out is a PVR-350 since it gives you the full on-screen display (OSD). The XCard is suppose to have more features (DivX support as well as support for CSS encoded DVDs), but it does not have the OSD (yet). I am wiating for the MediaMVP to become fully integrated so that I will have a cheater (and quiet) solution for integrating all of my TVs into my SageTV system.

[stanger89]

I'm going to dissagree with the others here since you are using a Pio Elite HDTV. I'm guessing you're using S-Video which will look horrible in your setup. You want to use Component YPbPr or RGB/VGA. The problem I'm guessing you're seeing is the Interlaced source->deinterlace->interlaced (S-Video)->Deinterlaced in TV.

See this thread it's also related to a Pio HDTV:
http://forums.sage.tv/forums/showthr...&threadid=4070

[rak306]

stanger89 wrote

"I'm going to dissagree with the others here since you are using a Pio Elite HDTV. I'm guessing you're using S-Video which will look horrible in your setup. You want to use Component YPbPr or RGB/VGA. The problem I'm guessing you're seeing is the Interlaced source->deinterlace->interlaced (S-Video)->Deinterlaced in TV. "


My Poineer Elite does not have component input, and so I am using S-video in. But I'm not going to replace the TV. DVDs look spectacular on this screen using S-video. I'm sure there are many computer issues related to interlace/deinterlace, but S-video by its nature is not the issue.

I have a broadcast Sony Betacam recorder that you cannot tell the difference between live and recorded, and this is using composite video, not S-video. I also have a broadcast 19" monitor with component input, and yes the quality of a high bandwidth camera input is better on component than composite, but a TV source, with limited color bandwidth of 1 MHz, is not limited by S-video.

So while I agree my picture does have issues in quality, I place the "blame" squarely on the computer, not the TV monitor. So my question is will the PVR-350 (or hopefully the media MVP) solve this?

Rick

[rak306]

jptaz wrote:

"Does it look soft on the Computer monitor?
Frequently TV Out on video cards cause this softening.

I use 2GB/HR and do not see this softening.
My TV Out is using NVdia FX5200 with Display set to 720x480 with Full overscan.
I found that many Video out settings look soft with 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768. The Native resolution of TV is 720x480."

It looks soft on the computer monitor as well.

My video card does not have a 720 x 480 resolution, so I'm using 800x600.

Rick

[rak306]

One more thing: While I know the media MVP will not work with SageTV now, is it possible to get it to view a recorded sesion, so that I can judge the video quality?

Rick

[fidget]

Originally posted by rak306
One more thing: While I know the media MVP will not work with SageTV now, is it possible to get it to view a recorded sesion, so that I can judge the video quality?

Rick

Yes, just chose the MPEG file and it will be played back. The "will not work with SageTV" part is that it is not integrated (i.e., you don't have the SageTV interface so you can't change channels, set recordings, etc.) with SageTV, but the MPEG files are readily available.

[jominor]

Try a different decoder. I was using the Intervideo non-css decoder that came with the Hauppage. I am now using the RAVISENT decoder than came with my ATI AIW 8500.

The RAVISENT is hardware accelerate and thus better than straight software not as good as HW decoded.

The difference was phenomenal. I have just used Sage color calibration settings and the difference between that and the default is even more pronounced. The default was too bright and the sharpness not quite high enough.

After this tweaking, the Sage playback is better than the straight signal(analog cable, BTW).

I'm going to order the newest ATI decoder to see if it gives me the VMR9 support.

I would say, try a different DVD decoder, make sure it is HW accelerated, then play with the color calibrations.

I'm extremely pleased with the results.

[rak306]

jominor wrote:

"...I have just used Sage color calibration settings and the difference between that and the default is even more pronounced. The default was too bright and the sharpness not quite high enough."

Where are the "Sage color calibration settings", and how do you set them?

Rick

[jominor]

Setup->Setup Wizard

then select your source(the tuner)

You will then see color calibration

Here is the link to a thread



2.0 beta Color Calibration thread



Geez! I just realized, I've got beta on the brain...
1.4 Color calibration

this should help you find 1.4 settings

Good luck!

[stanger89]

Sorry, I just assumed your Elite was an HDTV, since it's not, then yes a 350 probably would make a noticable difference. While S-Video in and of itself may not be a problem, in the scope of PC video playback it is. The problem lies in the chain video goes through.

First you start with interlaced video that the 250 records (720x480i).

This is then deinterlaced by the decoders you choose (720x480p). - This doesn't happen on the 350

Then it is scalled to your desktop resolution (assuming fullscreen) - Neither does this

Then it has to be scaled back to 720x480 and re-interlaced, probably not the same way it started. - or this
-Even here, many report that the picture is softened, how much depends on the Video card and decoders.

On an HDTV (or an SDTV with a Line Doubler like I expect yours has) the video is then deinterlaced a second time

When I ran S-Video to an HDTV with internal Deinterlacing, the picture was quite poor. The foreground wasn't horrible, but the background seemed to go in and out of focus, overall it was much softer than direct to the TV. However using Component or VGA the picture is at least as good as live.

A couple tricks that have been mentioned already, Setting the desktop to 640x480 or 720x480 help avoid the unnecessary scaling, and also if you set the decoders to force Weave, or disable deinterlacing, that may also help.

[rak306]

stanger89 wrote "Sorry, I just assumed your Elite was an HDTV... "

Well I wish it was, but it dates back before the HD standard was finalized, still a good picture though.

"...First you start with interlaced video ...then ...then..."

No wonder it has problems, at any rate, today I went out and bought a media MVP to check it out, as this is what I eventually want to use. The picture is much better. I connected directly to the PC via crossover cable (100 Mbps ethernet). It was not able to handle a 5.6 GB/hr file but did handle the 3.2GB/hr. I still noticed some small video picture issues but they were very sublte, and are likely fixable via some settings. But all in all much beter than before.

I also think as many have suggested, that there are decoders/settings that would work without the need for the MPV, but in my situaltion, I always intended to run the PVR remotely, and use SageTV client, and the MVP hardware is cheap, and quiet.

Now if just 2.0 were finished and the client was converted to run on the MPV <VBG>.

Thanks very much for the feedback.
Rick

[krutaw]

Originally posted by rak306
No wonder it has problems, at any rate, today I went out and bought a media MVP to check it out, as this is what I eventually want to use. The picture is much better. I connected directly to the PC via crossover cable (100 Mbps ethernet). It was not able to handle a 5.6 GB/hr file but did handle the 3.2GB/hr. I still noticed some small video picture issues but they were very sublte, and are likely fixable via some settings. But all in all much beter than before.

I would recommend checking out the PVR-350 before you make your final decision. I was shell-shocked at the quality difference between full-quality on the PVR-250 on a tv out card to 1.6gb / hour on a PVR-350. The 350 wins hands down. I haven't kicked it up to the highest it would go yet, but I can tell you it looks darn close to what my dvd player does right now.