SageTV 7 Software...

[kingwr]

I have read several posts referencing SageTV 7. Is there a version 7.0 of the product planned? Has it been spec'd out? Is there a target release date? I would really like even speculation on what's coming to put up against Windows 7 before I make a buying decision.

[reggie14]

Right now Sage is still trying to finish off Sage v6.6, or whatever they're going to call it. Look at the beta forum for more information on what Sage is currently working on. The big things are probably subtitle/CC support and better blu-ray support.

There's been no discussion of a Sage v7 release date, or planned/expected features. Some people have been requesting features, but no one really knows anything yet. I don't have any idea of what Sage might come up with for v7. Feature-wise I think Sage stacks up very, very well to the competition. I'm kind of hoping for a new user interface in the next version of Sage (something I'm been wanting for quite a while).

Are there any particular features you're looking for?

[Djc208]

Sage is traditionally mum about future products and dates. I'm sure they'll release version 7 when it's good and ready. I don't know if an interface change is in the works, but from the various threads the biggest change I expect from it is some sort of multi-user support. Lots of people have requested the ability to allow multiple family members to maintain their own listings of favorites, watched shows, etc.

Regardless I would not be waiting for Sage 7 to make a decision. Truth is other than the interface differences (and Win 7 media center definitally wins on the interface side for eye candy), Sage already offers far more flexability than Windows Media Center in any of it's forms.

[kingwr]

User Interface changes would definitely be what I was looking for. Specifically, an integration of SageMC-type templates and capabilities into the product, so that there aren't so many layers and the interface is consistent throughout the entire product (e.g. settings screen on stock interface while main menu on SageMC interface). This would also get rid of the requirement of two versions of add-ons: a stock UI version and a SageMC version. Beyond that, I would like to see more sophistication in the interface. Animated backgrounds, animated screen transitions, other motion-based UI elements (such as slide-show), and a multi-touch interface for touch screens.

I know SageMC and SageTV allow customization of the UI, but, honestly, I don't have nearly enough creativity to design and implement these kinds of things. I do know what I like, however, and the Windows 7 Media Center interface is pretty sharp. As someone over on TGB said, while SageTV may be more capable, if feels like the interface is several years behind. I don't want the transition to feel like a step backwards to my users (my wife and kids).

[Brent]

Originally Posted by kingwr

User Interface changes would definitely be what I was looking for. Specifically, an integration of SageMC-type templates and capabilities into the product, so that there aren't so many layers and the interface is consistent throughout the entire product (e.g. settings screen on stock interface while main menu on SageMC interface).

I don't think it is likely that SageTV will ever bundle SageMC (or whatever the next version of that is) with SageTV OOTB. But seriously I just don't understand what the big deal is about installing SageMC. The steps are as follows:
1. Download SageMC STV
2. Extract the SageMC STV Zip file into SageTV/SageTV folder
3. In the SageTV UI "load" the SageMC STV.
4. Enjoy

It's an addon, and there are many "skins" and additional addons available for it that allow you to customize it if you want to. I think we will see this process get even easier in the coming year or so too.

Beyond that, I would like to see more sophistication in the interface. Animated backgrounds, animated screen transitions, other motion-based UI elements (such as slide-show), and a multi-touch interface for touch screens.

I'd like to see this as well, but honestly it doesn't really add that much to the table. As of today, SageTV just can't do those things so as you say it will involve a new version of SageTV for that to happen.

I don't know when SageTV7 will arrive or even if they've begun working on a newer version. I do look forward to when that happens, but for now I'm really enjoying the many, many new features they keep dropping in version 6 at no additional cost to me.

I do hear what you're saying. I'd love to see the ootb "default" UI updated by SageTV, but I think its most likely that the best UI's will be user-developed. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing as the people working on those user-developed UI's are very talented and are committing a lot of hard work to the process.

[Ryokurin]

for all we know, when this beta is finished it could be promoted to 7. It happened before. Either way, don't wait because there's some newer version 'close' to being released, they'll take care of you either way. It's a good investment.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

I don't think it is likely that SageTV will ever bundle SageMC (or whatever the next version of that is) with SageTV OOTB. But seriously I just don't understand what the big deal is about installing SageMC. The steps are as follows:

It's not that hard, but it's kludgy. Not everything works in SageMC works on certain platforms (i.e., extenders) or without additional software, or without doing more complicated configurations. The actual SageMC software is sort of a hack job, with the installation spreading files all over the place, and putting configuration settings in lots of different files. Settings don't get carried over when you upgrade, and every time I've asked there doesn't seem to be a good way of saving/backing-up SageMC configuration settings.

And really, I think the default set of SageMC skins look pretty bad too. I do think the nBlue theme is a dramatic improvement over the stock UI and the SageMC default themes, but the installation is a bit more involved (why can't importing menu layouts be automatic when you change themes?). Plus, the SageMC UI doesn't work well with a mouse, as opposed to a remote, it doesn't work well on 4:3 TVs (things don't fit right), and it's a little buggy compared to the stock UI.

I do hear what you're saying. I'd love to see the ootb "default" UI updated by SageTV, but I think its most likely that the best UI's will be user-developed. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing as the people working on those user-developed UI's are very talented and are committing a lot of hard work to the process.

I really think updating the UI should be one of Sage's top priorities at this point. I think it's a much bigger deal than adding subtitle/CC support, though it's also a lot more work. I think Sage has tried to justify keeping the poor UI that hasn't changed that much since 2003 on the basis that they have studio, so users can make their own UIs. Studio and SageMC are great things, but they're no substitute for a good stock UI. First of all, it's a pain when you find a problem in Sage and you have to go back to the regular UI before you can get support from Sage. Second, a fair number of people will just skip over Sage completely after seeing the stock UI, even if one of the SageMC themes would be visually acceptable to them. Third, there's the problem with the lag time between new features in Sage and getting them in SageMC. And finally, as I said, you could resolve some of the issues of kludginess in SageMC if Sage would just integrate much of that functionality in one package to begin with.

[Brent]

Sorry in advance for the long, overly wordy response. But I wanted to address your comments/concerns as much as I could.

Originally Posted by reggie14

It's not that hard, but it's kludgy. Not everything works in SageMC works on certain platforms (i.e., extenders) or without additional software, or without doing more complicated configurations.

Please explain. What in SageMC doesn't work on an extender or without additional software or without doing more complicated configurations?

Are you really speaking of SageMC or some other addon like the Netflix or Slimplayer addon?

The actual SageMC software is sort of a hack job

Ouch. I think I know what you mean, but you're definitely selling SageMC short there imo.

with the installation spreading files all over the place, and putting configuration settings in lots of different files.

What files get spread all over the place? It installs in the STV directory - yes there are a LOT of files in there, but it isn't all over the place. Also don't get the "configuration settings in lots of different files" comment. I really think you are confusing plugins beyond SageMC in your comment because as far as I know SageMC puts all settings in the same place as standard SageTV - the properties file. Correct me if I'm wrong on that - it wouldn't be the first time today

Settings don't get carried over when you upgrade, and every time I've asked there doesn't seem to be a good way of saving/backing-up SageMC configuration settings.

I can't access SageTV at the moment, but in the SageMC settings there is an "export SageMC settings" function and an "import SageMC settings" function to handle that.

why can't importing menu layouts be automatic when you change themes?

The menu layouts part of SageMC is relatively new. I agree it isn't the easiest to do and I wouldn't be surprised to see that reworked in the future.

SageMC UI doesn't work well with a mouse, as opposed to a remote

True. but this plugin takes care of that if you're a mouse HTPC user. There's also a touchscreen plugin for those folks as well.

it doesn't work well on 4:3 TVs (things don't fit right)

Huh? I use it on my 37" 4:3 TV and it looks just fine (use it on my HDTV setups as well). Can you take a photo of your screen so we can see what isn't right?

and it's a little buggy compared to the stock UI.

That's a fair statement. But they handle the bugs in a pretty orderly and frequent fashion imo.

[quopte]First of all, it's a pain when you find a problem in Sage and you have to go back to the regular UI before you can get support from Sage.[/quote]
Agreed. I'm hoping this problem is solved in a future version of the addon. Same for your other comments as well.

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely - I think SageTV should update their UI also, but I think many of your comments about SageMC weren't entirely correct.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

Please explain. What in SageMC doesn't work on an extender or without additional software or without doing more complicated configurations?

Well, the default theme has the DVD player button present, which doesn't work on extenders obviously. I could be wrong, but I think you have to install comskip separately. Setting up RSS feeds is annoying, and doesn't quite work on extenders. Setting up e-mail is even worse, and I've never gotten it to work on extenders.

Edit: Then there's fanart too, which still confuses me. I'm reasonably confident I can struggle my way through getting that setup, but there are a lot of components coming together in ways that I don't understand from the current documentation.

Then there's the issue with themes, which I mentioned later.

Ouch. I think I know what you mean, but you're definitely selling SageMC short there imo.

SageMC is a hack job. I'm not saying that's an awful thing, but I don't think the package is terribly professional. As I said, it spreads stuff all over the place. Part of the reason is probably because SageMC incorporated plugins that other people developed separately from the SageMC core. The current setup seems to just basically install the plugin as part of the SageMC installation process, rather than more tightly integrating them. It's not a huge issue, but I think that's one reason upgrades are more painful.

What files get spread all over the place? It installs in the STV directory - yes there are a LOT of files in there, but it isn't all over the place.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't just do that. Look at the SageMC zip file and see where it's placing stuff. I don't have it with me here, but I'm pretty sure it's not all nicely contained in a SageMC subfolder of the STV directory.

And, I'm not completely sure about this either, but I think themes place files in various places too, rather than being nicely contained.

And, even if SageMC was mostly in an STV subfolder, it still places configuration settings in way too many different files. Once I asked what files I would have to save to back up the configuration settings and no one was able to answer the question. I'm not saying someone couldn't figure it out, but it doesn't seem be a very easy question to answer.

I really think you are confusing plugins beyond SageMC in your comment because as far as I know SageMC puts all settings in the same place as standard SageTV - the properties file. Correct me if I'm wrong on that - it wouldn't be the first time today

Maybe most settings end up there. Frankly, I'm not sure. As I said, I've asked the question before about SageMC configuration settings. What really prompted that question originally is that I was confused where menu items and menu layouts were saved. I thought they were in the menu_layout.xml file, but now I think that stuff might get imported into the properties file.

At the very least RSS feeds and e-mail settings are somewhere else.

I can't access SageTV at the moment, but in the SageMC settings there is an "export SageMC settings" function and an "import SageMC settings" function to handle that.

I'll give that a try sometime. I've asked the question about saving SageMC settings multiple times and pretty much every time I've been told just to redo everything.

But, I'm not sure that would fix everything. Sage does a nice job when doing upgrades to keep your old settings without screwing up any new stuff in the next version. You might be able to backup your old settings, but it seems like that could easily cause problems if the next version of MC introduces new things.

True. but this plugin takes care of that if you're a mouse HTPC user. There's also a touchscreen plugin for those folks as well.

I think I looked at the mouse interface a long, long time ago when it first came out, and it was pretty kludgy. It worked, but it wasn't very user friendly. But, I haven't tried using SageMC directly, or using the plugin, on a computer anytime recently. Maybe it has improved.

Huh? I use it on my 37" 4:3 TV and it looks just fine (use it on my HDTV setups as well). Can you take a photo of your screen so we can see what isn't right?

I got a new TV so I don't have that problem anymore! One particular thing I remember that always bugged me was that the time wouldn't fit on the OSD when playing back a video. There were various other things too. I think some of the buttons on the left hand of the screen wouldn't display their full contents. Even on a 16:9 display I still occasionally see messages boxes and buttons that don't display their full contents.

That's a fair statement. But they handle the bugs in a pretty orderly and frequent fashion imo.

Really? Frequently, sure, but I think it's completely disorganized. It's a big enough project it should probably use something like bugzilla. I've reported little things and in many cases I don't hear anything back on them. I'm not sure if that means someone checked and didn't have the same problem, or if it was such a small issue no one bothered to look. Something like bugzilla would help that.

[Brent]

Dang it reggie - you just replied with as much verbage as I did . This is going to take a bit of work, but I'm up to it.

Originally Posted by reggie14

Well, the default theme has the DVD player button present, which doesn't work on extenders obviously.

You're correct. And you need to remove that menu item or do like I do and create a custom menu (simply changing what it shows on the main menu) and save it to use on all extenders. Hit options (esc on keyboard or right-click on mouse) and delete the menu item.

I could be wrong, but I think you have to install comskip separately.

comskip isn't included with SageTV or SageMC - you have to install that seperately with any SageTV install, just as you would with MediaCenter. So that has nothing to do with SageMC

Setting up RSS feeds is annoying, and doesn't quite work on extenders. Setting up e-mail is even worse, and I've never gotten it to work on extenders.

Hmm. Honestly I don't use RSS feed or e-mail so I can't help there. But they should work with extenders I would think. I don't understand why anyone would want e-mail on their HTPC really. RSS feeds could make sense, but I never use it as it just clutters things up imo.

Edit: Then there's fanart too, which still confuses me. I'm reasonably confident I can struggle my way through getting that setup, but there are a lot of components coming together in ways that I don't understand from the current documentation.

Ah fanart. Fanart is a very new thing to SageMC and yes it takes some work to get it all going. I'll have to write up a how-to on that someday soon. It certainly isn't something that is required to use SageMC though. Expect fanart in SageMC to continue to evolve until its much easier to use and more integrated - right now its really in a alpha/beta stage of development imo.

SageMC is a hack job. I'm not saying that's an awful thing, but I don't think the package is terribly professional.

Well as I said before I don't think its really a "hack job", but it is a combination of many plugins wrapped into one as well as a very complicated (under the hood) and amazing add-on. I guess I"m not totally with you on this one although I do agree improvements should (and will) be made to it.

More responses coming in next reply.

[reggie14]

I've been involved in enough internet forum discussions to know we can't keep commenting point-by-point to one another. But I can respond to your last post with a couple short paragraphs pretty well.

Basically, I just disagree that setting up SageMC is as easy as downloading it, unzipping it, and loading the sage_mc.xml file. It can be that simple, but not everything will work. Getting extra things to work can take a trivial amount of work (e.g., removing the DVD menu item, though that's not entirely intuitive), or a lot of work (e.g., fan art). But, I agree if you just care about getting some new menu screens, without even using a non-included theme, then the SageMC setup is pretty simple.

I do think SageMC is mostly a hack job. A very good one, feature-wise especially, but a hack job nonetheless. I think you're reading that as a more negative thing than I intended, although I think it does have downsides. I do think this is partially responsible for the user-experience in SageMC. I think it's why some things, like e-mail and RSS, seem like extra components just tacked on- because that's basically what they are. I think that it is probably part of the reason upgrades are a bit problematic. And, I suspect it probably makes the project as a whole a bit more difficult to work on (from a software engineering perspective).

Edit: This is tangential to our actual discussion, but I've always though e-mail notification was more useful than RSS feeds. I sort of compulsively check my e-mail, for no particular reason, and I used to be the only one that used my Sage setup, so having Sage check it for me seemed pretty useful to me. Of course, now my phone checks my e-mail, so it becomes less useful for Sage to do it too. I set up RSS feeds just because I thought it would be cool (wow, us geeks have an odd definition of 'cool', don't we?). I eventually decided it slowed things down too much and turned it off.

[Taddeusz]

New development of SageMC is going to be basically shelved for a time while the author goes to work on the new fanart API. I believe he said he would provide compatibility updates for future versions of SageTV but there will be no major improvements for quite some time.

This development really highlights the fact that Frey depends way too much on outside developers. I might say that there are a great number of SageTV users who depend on SageMC. While SageMC is a nicer interface than the default UI it still needs notable improvements. Without further development this puts SageTV at a large disadvantage and also highlights the fact that the default UI is plain and dated. Even SageMC itself feels a bit dated without the pizazz and eye candy of more modern interfaces. Certainly, eye candy doesn't add anything substantial but it does bring better attractiveness. Functionality is nothing if it doesn't at least look somewhat pretty. And pretty the default UI is not.

I completely agree about the scatter shot add-ons in SageTV. I wish there were a nicer packaging system for add-ons, and not just for installation. A single file that contains the entire add-on. That way you don't end up with add-ons that can only be completely removed by a clean installation of SageTV. Nicely packaged add-ons is quite high on my wish list for SageTV along with multi-user support.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I'm pretty sure it doesn't just do that. Look at the SageMC zip file and see where it's placing stuff. I don't have it with me here, but I'm pretty sure it's not all nicely contained in a SageMC subfolder of the STV directory.

okay you got me on that one. Here's a screenshot of the files and locations:

But any custom STV requires this. If you want those fancy looking fanart, the e-mail and rss and other stuff you speak of, these files have to go in those locations in order for it to work in SageTV.

[/quote]And, I'm not completely sure about this either, but I think themes place files in various places too, rather than being nicely contained.[/quote]
All themes (in SageMC at least) go to SageTV\SageTV\STVs\SageTV3\SageMCE\Themes

I guess I don't get why it matters. What are you doing with the individual files anyway? You just extract them and it works.

And, even if SageMC was mostly in an STV subfolder, it still places configuration settings in way too many different files. Once I asked what files I would have to save to back up the configuration settings and no one was able to answer the question. I'm not saying someone couldn't figure it out, but it doesn't seem be a very easy question to answer.

Unless I'm missing something in your question - I use this to backup and restore my SageMC options:

I was confused where menu items and menu layouts were saved. I thought they were in the menu_layout.xml file, but now I think that stuff might get imported into the properties file.

What menu items and/or layouts are you speaking of? Menu items to me are the icons and graphics on a menu - those are located in the themes directory. If you customize the menu itself (the indiv. menu items like "music" "movies" etc) are located in the sagetv/sagetv/menu.xml file (or whatever you saved it as if you customized it).

At the very least RSS feeds and e-mail settings are somewhere else.

That might be true - not sure as I don't use them.

Sage does a nice job when doing upgrades to keep your old settings without screwing up any new stuff in the next version. You might be able to backup your old settings, but it seems like that could easily cause problems if the next version of MC introduces new things.

It certainly could be improved upon. But I don't have problems when I upgrade. I do this with each upgrade just in case: Copy the SageTV/SageTV folder to a backup folder. That way I can always restore it if something goes wrong. I also use a diskimage on occasion for a failsafe backup.

I think I looked at the mouse interface a long, long time ago when it first came out, and it was pretty kludgy. It worked, but it wasn't very user friendly. But, I haven't tried using SageMC directly, or using the plugin, on a computer anytime recently. Maybe it has improved.

I don't think it's changed much since it came out in 2007. But it works just fine for me although I only use it on the server in the office. Somehow I feel like I'm defending plugins you haven't really tried - give it another try and post something in that plugins thread if there's something missing or kludgy about it - you'll be amazed at how receptive the authors can be.

I got a new TV so I don't have that problem anymore! One particular thing I remember that always bugged me was that the time wouldn't fit on the OSD when playing back a video.

Again that has to do with your SageTV settings (Overscan in this case) and not SageMC. Simple fix although not as simple as buying an HDTV like you did

Really? Frequently, sure, but I think it's completely disorganized. It's a big enough project it should probably use something like bugzilla.

Yes I think they handle it pretty well. Remember that until this year it was two or at many times a single person addressing the real bugs as he had time - in his spare time for free.

I've reported little things and in many cases I don't hear anything back on them. I'm not sure if that means someone checked and didn't have the same problem, or if it was such a small issue no one bothered to look. Something like bugzilla would help that.

I agree a better bug reporting system would be good. I'll take that suggestion and run with it. Just know that SageMC will mostly stay as it is for a while during which time a team of very talented and generous developers work on the yet to be explained phoenix project

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

I guess I don't get why it matters. What are you doing with the individual files anyway? You just extract them and it works.

To some extent I think this is true. I think you could make a good comparison between SageMC is installed and how applications are installed on a Windows machine. Windows programs place files all over the place, as opposed to Macs which tend to have a nice single package, mostly. But, for the most part, users don't see a big difference.

Mostly I think this is just what I mean when I say SageMC is a bit kludgy and a bit of a hack job. But, it can create problems on windows machines. The term "dll hell" comes to mind. I think you can easily run into problems when you're dealing with different versions of different pieces of software that have to interact with one another. I'm not sure how much the "kludginess" of SageMC is responsible for some of SageMC's shortcomings, but I think it's probably partly responsible. I do think the configuration settings thing in SageMC is a bit problematic. I'm going to look at the SageMC backup and restore settings. I'm guessing that it's problematic in two ways: 1) I bet it only backs up the settings displayed in the SageMC settings menus (and there are at least some things that fall outside of that and the properties file), and 2) I bet you could run into problems trying to restore the settings from an older version of SageMC on a new version of SageMC.

What menu items and/or layouts are you speaking of? Menu items to me are the icons and graphics on a menu - those are located in the themes directory. If you customize the menu itself (the indiv. menu items like "music" "movies" etc) are located in the sagetv/sagetv/menu.xml file (or whatever you saved it as if you customized it).

Yeah, I'm mainly talking about customized menu items and menu layouts. I know you can import and export those settings (though, in my experience, that doesn't work perfectly), but I'm not sure where it gets saved. I was actually under the impression that stuff got saved in the client's properties file. You don't think that's the case?

It certainly could be improved upon. But I don't have problems when I upgrade. I do this with each upgrade just in case:

Out of curiosity, have you done much customization beyond just using on the standard SageMC themes? It's really that stuff that seems to be more problematic.

Somehow I feel like I'm defending plugins you haven't really tried - give it another try and post something in that plugins thread if there's something missing or kludgy about it - you'll be amazed at how receptive the authors can be.

I rarely use Sage client anymore on my PC. I used it more often when my PC was in my bedroom. Now it's in an office by itself, so most of them time I'm on it I'm either playing a game or actually doing work. So, the default UI is fine with me, and has always been pretty well suited for mouse navigation.

The problem with commenting on plugins is the same problem that we run into when we have discussions about the UI. Even when we can come to a consensus on what could be improved, it can be awfully hard to come up with something better. And, it can be impossible to do something that is good for two different situations. This is probably what's difficult in the case of the mouse plugin. I don't like the toolbar on top. I'd rather things be like the stock UI where the playback controls are in the timebar. And I'd a volume slider that appears on the OSD too, with a slider. I'm guessing that would require a changes in the actual SageMC code and theme, and would make SageMC less usable on systems which have remote controls.

Again that has to do with your SageTV settings (Overscan in this case) and not SageMC. Simple fix although not as simple as buying an HDTV like you did

I'd highly recommend the getting a new HDTV route. It worked very well for me.

But, I did try messing around with the overscan settings. I even tried setting the overscan settings well beyond what my TV would actually display. But even then I couldn't fit the time on the screen. I think the best I could ever do was get it so times with a single hour digit would display. But, I'd still see things like "10:..." for the time when it hit double digits. And, like I said, I remember lots of message windows and buttons getting cut off. And, by cut off, I mean something like instead of showing "Recorded TV" in a button I'd see "Recorded..." (that's a made up example).

You don't get any of that stuff on your TV? That seems weird, because like I said, I even see a little bit of that stuff on my widescreen TV. If you don't see anything like what I'm describing, I'll put SageMC on my smaller bedroom TV and try to take some photos. Maybe my other TV just had a lot of overscan (is that word, or is it underscan?) on it.

For a while I actually kept a list of things that didn't fit. I wish I still had it. At one point I just decided that it had to have been a known issue and I thought it just wasn't a high priority to get SageMC working right on 4:3 TVs.

[Taddeusz]

If you're sitting in front of the computer the keyboard shortcuts are always nice. And probably quicker than positioning and clicking the mouse.

[reggie14]

So, I just tried SageMC on my older SD TV. It worked better than I remember it. I still can't see the time on the OSD when playing back many recordings, but so far that's the only thing I've found besides the buttons not showing the full names in the weather maps sections. I think I had more difficulties before. I think I thought I made the text smaller in the SageMC menus, but in reality I had made the text bigger, because I could have sworn there were more things that didn't fit.

But, they sometimes appeared in strange places. For example, confirmation screens where the "Yes" doesn't quite fit in the selection box. I'm not sure where exactly those screens were, so I can't test it with the default options. But, I'm about 90% sure I'm run into similar things even on my widescreen TV, although it's far less common. I remember running into and being really surprised to see it, since I was using a widescreen TV.

And, on the issue of keyboard shortcuts, I do use them, but I've never really been one for keyboard shortcuts. So, I never got along with vi, or even emacs, very well.

Edit:
Also, it's not entirely clear to me what the backup SageMC options feature does. There seems to be two backup files. An application_exit_backup.sagemc file, and an application_start_backup.sagemc. If you go to that menu and create a new backup file, it creates one just like the exit file, and it contains a limited amount of data. The start file has a lot more data though. Which one do you load when you restore your settings, Brent?

[kingwr]

Much of this thread proves my point. A "Sage Fanatic" going at it with a "Sage Icon" over what STVs need to be installed where and what plug-ins work with what skins and what-not. These are the many layers that I referred to in my earlier post. SageTV is very much a DIY type architecture. Requires a techno-geek to implement and is too much trouble for folks like me (playing along here) to deal with. I like the fact that I can click the green button and I get a modern, visually appealing interface from Media Center which is consistent on all screens as well as on extenders.

I don't like the underlying feature set of Media Center, however, and would much prefer SageTV in that arena. And I can't imagine I am alone in this. That is why I think it would increased SageTV's market significantly if it offered the current feature set with a slick, modern OOTB interface, like Media Center's.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by kingwr

I don't like the underlying feature set of Media Center, however, and would much prefer SageTV in that arena. And I can't imagine I am alone in this. That is why I think it would increased SageTV's market significantly if it offered the current feature set with a slick, modern OOTB interface, like Media Center's.

Don't say that too loud. While I and I'm sure Frey would love to see SageTV succeed more than it already has there are those on this forum that want SageTV to stay a niche product and want to see it stay difficult to set up. To them if its too easy to use its less powerful. To an extent that's true. But really, what's wrong with making it easier while keeping more advanced users satisfied with separate larger configuration set?

Packaged compartmentalized add-ons should be a no-brainer as it should lead to less clutter and possibly better stability.

The interface should also be a no-brainer. I understand there are those that like the current default UI. It is quite simple but can also be quite cluttered in certain areas, particularly with the buttons down the left side and selections along the top. The UI clutter of the default UI is really what bugs me the most. SageMC, for the most part, is simple and to the point. The only area where I believe SageMC is lacking is in the music library. I don't know how I would improve it but at the same time I don't like how it is currently laid out.

[Brent]

kingwr and taddeusz,
I really do mostly agree with both of your last comments.

• I would like to see a nicer looking ootb UI.
• I would also like for it to be easier to set up the basics ootb.
• I also would like for it to be even more successful for two reasons: 1 - I use SageTV 2 - I think its healthy for Microsoft MC to have some viable competition.

But I do think the "it's too difficult to set up" and "too difficult to use" comments are not really true - especially compared to MS Media Center. If you want to use MediaCenter as-is without any add-ons or changing any settings, yes it's pretty darn easy. So is BeyondTV. But really, SageTV isn't much more difficult to use or set up imo. Even with the SageMC add-on that is just one extra step - no "install tinkering required". btw, I'm not a programmer or even a computer tech of any kind. I will admit though that I've been around the HTPC world to know how to persevere until things work. Learned that first with Meedios, then BeyondTV/BeyondMedia, then Vista MediaCenter and finally with SageTV (did some tinkering with GBPVR and MediaPortal too)

When you go beyond the basics, SageTV can get VERY complicated. There are so many features and settings that even the most dedicated SageTV users can forget where they all are. But that's a huge advantage too as it means SageTV can do almost anything you want it to whereas MS MediaCenter and BeyondTV cannot. That doesn't mean SageTV and even the SageMC add-on doesn't have a TON of room for improvement - ways to make things easier and more attractive ootb.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

kingwr and taddeusz,
But I do think the "it's too difficult to set up" and "too difficult to use" comments are not really true - especially compared to MS Media Center. If you want to use MediaCenter as-is without any add-ons or changing any settings, yes it's pretty darn easy. So is BeyondTV. But really, SageTV isn't much more difficult to use or set up imo.

Out of curiosity, can someone compare and contrast the setup involved with setting up QAM tuners and IR blasters in Vista MC compared to Sage? Those weren't terrible things to do in Sage, but they were moderately complicated. QAM setup was a little confusing. I think some kind of setup wizard could make that easier, and I kind of wonder why the process can't extract the stations' call letters from the TV stream like my QAM-capable HDTV does. The Hauppauge IR blaster was relatively easy to set up, but I was a little annoyed that I had to set it up in the Hauppauge software instead of within Sage.

BTW, Brent, did you check to see if the time is visible on your 4:3 TV on the OSD in SageMC? If you get very many icons up there (recording, favorite, first run, HD, etc.) it quickly takes up all the room, leaving no room for the time. I have a photo of it, but then I'd have to find some web site to upload it to.