Questions from a HTPC-veteran/SageTV-newbie

[vogelap]

As a brand-new-to-SageTV but LOOONG time Beyond TV user (since October 2002), I must say that the "out of the box" experience with SageTV is somewhat lacking.

Right out of the box, SageTV doesn't provide commercial skip nor many of the "cool" features that distinguish PC-based PVR from products like TiVo or a fully-tweaked SageTV. I feel like I have a mountain of tweaking & configuration to do once SageTV is installed. With Beyond TV, I was up and running very quickly.

I'd love to see a "SageTV Ultimate Install" or something that rolled the cool features (commercial skip, fanart, the nice library replacements, ability to play ripped DVDs/ISOs, upgraded webserver, RSS feeds, etc, etc, etc) into one installation package that guided the user through the configuration so they could be up and running (and having positive experiences) with SageTV as quickly as possible -- make these features available out-of-the-box. At the bare minimum, it would be nice if SageTV's installer installed/configured ComSkip (or ShowAnalyser) instead of making it a separate process. Commercial skipping, to my mind, is a core function of a HTPC/PVR and should be installed as part of the core.

Certainly some users will say that they want to go in a different configuration direction than the "Ultimate" install (for example, some will prefer to use ShowAnalyzer instead of ComSkip), and they can do that with SageTV's flexible options -- if you don't like what comes in "Ultimate", just remove the add-on and bolt on your preferred selection! But provide a full-featured installation option to make some of that tweaking unnecessary.

For the record... I bought SageTV on 3/20/2009. At this point I am still using Beyond TV full-time because it ...just works... and doesn't require add-ons, XML editing, or other behind the scenes tweaks to get the basic functionality I want. Sure, Beyond TV is limited compared to SageTV, but so is the free time that I can spend mucking around with the internals.

On a side note, I've become accustomed to the way Beyond TV displays the library (by show) and have not found a satisfactory equivalent in SageTV.

One last question... How do I exit the program guide WITHOUT using the mouse?! My remote is the full-sized Firefly.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by vogelap

One last question... How do I exit the program guide WITHOUT using the mouse?! My remote is the full-sized Firefly.

Actually, that was your only question. Use the Home key (or whatever the equivalent key is on your remote).

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by vogelap

ability to play ripped DVDs/ISOs

Ripped DVD playback is out of the box functionality.

At the bare minimum, it would be nice if SageTV's installer installed/configured ComSkip (or ShowAnalyser) instead of making it a separate process. Commercial skipping, to my mind, is a core function of a HTPC/PVR and should be installed as part of the core.

Maybe it is, but it's very controvercial in the "legal" arena. Content owners don't like it. ReplayTV got sued over commercial skip tech.

Sure, Beyond TV is limited compared to SageTV, but so is the free time that I can spend mucking around with the internals.

Honestly, how long would it take you to get Sage up to where BTV is? Maybe an hour (including time for the installer to run)? And it would do more than BTV right there (since it's got library functionality built in).

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by vogelap

As a brand-new-to-SageTV but LOOONG time Beyond TV user (since October 2002), I must say that the "out of the box" experience with SageTV is somewhat lacking.

Right out of the box, SageTV doesn't provide commercial skip nor many of the "cool" features that distinguish PC-based PVR from products like TiVo or a fully-tweaked SageTV. I feel like I have a mountain of tweaking & configuration to do once SageTV is installed. With Beyond TV, I was up and running very quickly.

I started with Beyond TV back in 2004 (or whenever 2.0 came out). I used it until I went with MCE full time in late 2005 or so. When the HD-PVR came out last year I decided to go back to BTV due to lack of support for the HD-PVR in MCE. BTV didn't handle the HD-PVR very well back then and I decided to give SageTV a try. I went back and forth with SageTV/BTV for about a month. I didn't see much difference in the setup with Sage vs Beyond, not being used to the newer versions of either. Found some pluses with Sage and missed some things from Beyond.

In the end, Sage gave better support for the HD-PVR sooner than Beyond TV so here am. For the first few months hardly a day went by that I didn't make a new discovery in how to use Sage. I ended up liking Sage much more that Beyond TV. I find that the SageTV base package is very reliable.

The thing I learned for sure is that until you commit (one way or the other) you will continue to flounder. I'm extremely happy with Sage now, even though it has a few warts.

[matt91]

If you haven't yet seen it, Brent has a lot of info for those new to SageTV (including a guide to those converting from BTV).

http://www.geektonic.com/2008/11/sag...ate-guide.html

[vogelap]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

I started with Beyond TV back in 2004 (or whenever 2.0 came out). I used it until I went with MCE full time in late 2005 or so. When the HD-PVR came out last year I decided to go back to BTV due to lack of support for the HD-PVR in MCE. BTV didn't handle the HD-PVR very well back then and I decided to give SageTV a try. I went back and forth with SageTV/BTV for about a month. I didn't see much difference in the setup with Sage vs Beyond, not being used to the newer versions of either. Found some pluses with Sage and missed some things from Beyond.

In the end, Sage gave better support for the HD-PVR sooner than Beyond TV so here am. For the first few months hardly a day went by that I didn't make a new discovery in how to use Sage. I ended up liking Sage much more that Beyond TV. I find that the SageTV base package is very reliable.

The thing I learned for sure is that until you commit (one way or the other) you will continue to flounder. I'm extremely happy with Sage now, even though it has a few warts.

Thanks for your comments, Helen. You make some excellent points... Perhaps I will have to just commit to SageTV instead of running back to Beyond TV!

[SWKerr]

I converted from BeyondTV about a year ago and except for the Webadmin tool have found Sage to be better at most tasks. It is mostly about the plugins that the Sage community creates that make it a better product than BeyondTV. My main complaint about BeyondTV was the lack of integration for music and DVDs in the main interface. If you are just interested in TV then BeyondTV is fine but that is really as far as they take it it is really not a Media Center application.

Just about everything you listed is in the SageMC plugin which is generally pretty easy to install. I found the newbie documentation for plugins to be somewhat lacking at first but one you figure it out installing something else is relatively easy.

[sandor]

not sure how BTV's recorded tv setup differs from sage, but i turn on the unsupported extras, and utilize "malore" setup... i like it... (see attached screen shot)

[Striker:WG]

Originally Posted by vogelap

As a brand-new-to-SageTV but LOOONG time Beyond TV user (since October 2002), I must say that the "out of the box" experience with SageTV is somewhat lacking.

Right out of the box, SageTV doesn't provide commercial skip nor many of the "cool" features that distinguish PC-based PVR from products like TiVo or a fully-tweaked SageTV. I feel like I have a mountain of tweaking & configuration to do once SageTV is installed. With Beyond TV, I was up and running very quickly.

I'd love to see a "SageTV Ultimate Install" or something that rolled the cool features (commercial skip, fanart, the nice library replacements, ability to play ripped DVDs/ISOs, upgraded webserver, RSS feeds, etc, etc, etc) into one installation package that guided the user through the configuration so they could be up and running (and having positive experiences) with SageTV as quickly as possible -- make these features available out-of-the-box. At the bare minimum, it would be nice if SageTV's installer installed/configured ComSkip (or ShowAnalyser) instead of making it a separate process. Commercial skipping, to my mind, is a core function of a HTPC/PVR and should be installed as part of the core.

Certainly some users will say that they want to go in a different configuration direction than the "Ultimate" install (for example, some will prefer to use ShowAnalyzer instead of ComSkip), and they can do that with SageTV's flexible options -- if you don't like what comes in "Ultimate", just remove the add-on and bolt on your preferred selection! But provide a full-featured installation option to make some of that tweaking unnecessary.

For the record... I bought SageTV on 3/20/2009. At this point I am still using Beyond TV full-time because it ...just works... and doesn't require add-ons, XML editing, or other behind the scenes tweaks to get the basic functionality I want. Sure, Beyond TV is limited compared to SageTV, but so is the free time that I can spend mucking around with the internals.

On a side note, I've become accustomed to the way Beyond TV displays the library (by show) and have not found a satisfactory equivalent in SageTV.

One last question... How do I exit the program guide WITHOUT using the mouse?! My remote is the full-sized Firefly.

I've gotta say I agree with you that the out of the box experience sucks.

After having installed and setup several MS MCE2k5 systems Sage was nothing but a pain in the @$$. I think its a very different experience if you have Hauppage hardware and a USB-UIRT to work with as that hardware is natively supported in Sage whereas I converted from MCE2k5 with my Sapphire tuner cards and an MCE IR Blaster/Remote system. With my hardware I don't get CC support, FM Radio Support, or IR Blasting support out of the box with Sage, its all done by 3rd party unsupported plugins or not at all whereas it just worked with MCE2k5.

After dual booting my HTPC for the 21 day trial, slowly tinkering when I had time and getting things working to the point of being usable I switched to Sage and have since gotten alot more comfortable with it. Its really something you need to grow into.

-Striker-

[vogelap]

Originally Posted by sandor

not sure how BTV's recorded tv setup differs from sage, but i turn on the unsupported extras, and utilize "malore" setup... i like it... (see attached screen shot)

Thanks for the screenshot, Sandor! That display would work just fine for me.

I am about to go search for "unsupported extras" and "malore" to see if I can figure out what you mean!

[takeshi]

Originally Posted by vogelap

I'd love to see a "SageTV Ultimate Install" or something that rolled the cool features (commercial skip, fanart, the nice library replacements, ability to play ripped DVDs/ISOs, upgraded webserver, RSS feeds, etc, etc, etc) into one installation package that guided the user through the configuration so they could be up and running (and having positive experiences) with SageTV as quickly as possible -- make these features available out-of-the-box.

Then put one together! We didn't get what we have now by sitting around and wishing for improvments. ;-)

A big problem is that "cool" is going to be very subjective. Personally, I have no use for most of your list. I'm sure other people will have varying opinions as well.

[ractar28]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Maybe it is, but it's very controvercial in the "legal" arena. Content owners don't like it. ReplayTV got sued over commercial skip tech.

Okay, let's go down this path a little, just for fun.

Okay, so the SageTV installer can't do this. How about having a second "installer" that you can download that will apply a set of hacks/customizations/whatever? Imagine how great it would be to double-click an icon, and have the top 12 hacks applied. These would be the list of "must-haves". They'd be tested to interact well with each other and with Sagetv, and all rolled up into a neat little package. Now, go to dealdatabase.com and search for "sleeper ISO" and see the absolute beating one guy took for trying to automate TiVo hacking. The problem is that things change. Hacks are updated, software is updated, firmware is updated, and sooner or later (tomorrow possibly), the wonderful install package is outdated. Furthermore, when one thing doesn't work, the writer naturally asks what else is installed, then they mention the "package" and the fur starts flying.

And if you REALLY get bored, go look for the initrd framework. People started copyrighting their own works to keep from getting things redistributed. While it's quite true that the folks here seem to be able to get along with others much better, I never thought people could get so petty over on DDB either.

[vogelap]

Originally Posted by takeshi

Then put one together! We didn't get what we have now by sitting around and wishing for improvments. ;-)

A big problem is that "cool" is going to be very subjective. Personally, I have no use for most of your list. I'm sure other people will have varying opinions as well.

A new thought, then, Takeshi, combining your comment and Ractar's... A second installer that installs a selection of cool things... Want to enable Secret Extras? Check the box in the installer. ShowAnalyzer or ComSkip? Check. Want the upgraded webserver? Check it. Don't want RSS? Leave unchecked. Etc.

I guess the first step would be to decide what qualifies as "cool". Then write an installer that installs them selectively.

Originally Posted by ractar28

Okay, let's go down this path a little, just for fun.

Okay, so the SageTV installer can't do this. How about having a second "installer" that you can download that will apply a set of hacks/customizations/whatever? Imagine how great it would be to double-click an icon, and have the top 12 hacks applied. These would be the list of "must-haves". They'd be tested to interact well with each other and with Sagetv, and all rolled up into a neat little package. Now, go to dealdatabase.com and search for "sleeper ISO" and see the absolute beating one guy took for trying to automate TiVo hacking. The problem is that things change. Hacks are updated, software is updated, firmware is updated, and sooner or later (tomorrow possibly), the wonderful install package is outdated. Furthermore, when one thing doesn't work, the writer naturally asks what else is installed, then they mention the "package" and the fur starts flying.

And if you REALLY get bored, go look for the initrd framework. People started copyrighting their own works to keep from getting things redistributed. While it's quite true that the folks here seem to be able to get along with others much better, I never thought people could get so petty over on DDB either.

Phew. You make compelling arguments. Perhaps the best way is to decide what's "cool" and WRITE SPECIFIC DOCUMENTATION on getting, installing, and configuring it!

I love your idea about double-clicking and getting the top 12 hacks automatically. It would accelerate the enjoyment of SageTV quite a bit for the new user.

Also, if commercial skipping is such a potential legal problem, let's make SageTV behave like Beyond TV and do commercial marking and require the user to press a button to skip the commercial if they want. It's what I've become accustomed to in Beyond TV and don't mind it a bit.

[sandor]

Originally Posted by vogelap

Thanks for the screenshot, Sandor! That display would work just fine for me.

I am about to go search for "unsupported extras" and "malore" to see if I can figure out what you mean!

i'll save you the time =)

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...pported+extras

[Brent]

Originally Posted by vogelap

As a brand-new-to-SageTV but LOOONG time Beyond TV user (since October 2002)

Welcome! Lots of ex-BeyondTV users around these parts so you're in good company.

Originally Posted by vogelap

I must say that the "out of the box" experience with SageTV is somewhat lacking. Right out of the box, SageTV doesn't provide commercial skip nor many of the "cool" features that distinguish PC-based PVR from products like TiVo or a fully-tweaked SageTV. I feel like I have a mountain of tweaking & configuration to do once SageTV is installed. With Beyond TV, I was up and running very quickly.

You've been spoiled a little with the install once and what you get is what you get. BeyondTV was built to include everything all installed all at once. Commercial skipping, compression, web admin... Okay, that's actually all you get with BTV out of the box, but it's definitely easy because it's all installed and pre-configured for you. I'll definitely admit that is a nice part of BTV and something I struggled with a bit when I first switched to SageTV.

Now, I'll be the first to say, there is currently no perfect HTPC software for everyone - there just isnt. But I can say that SageTV is about as close as you can get. It takes a bit more work to set everything up, takes a lot more to learn everything there is (because there is SOOO much more there) and it's not flashy like Windows Media Center ootb. But SageTV is the following:

• VERY powerful and configurable - you can find many add-ons, themes and other extras to make SageTV do what you want it to.
• Very stable. I used to think BeyondTV had that one covered, but the HD-PVR support and some other recent issues I had with BTV made me realize they didn't have the "focus" I wanted. SageTV has the HD-PVR support as good as possbile. They constantly work to fix any bugs and release often - VERY often with bug fixes and new features.
• Large community - looking for those informative and helpful folks you used to see frequent the SS forums? You'll find many of the here at SageTV (some are also found on GreenButton and XBMC forums).
• Large developer community. SageTV is a HTPC front-end that thrives with 3rd party add-ons and themes. If there's a feature SageTV hasn't gotten to, the 3rd party developers have probably released it or are working on it. Very little can be done with BTV as it is.
• Placeshifter - nice to have additional feature available with SageTV
• Extenders! Get a HD200. Get two - trust me you won't be sorry. they are simply awesome and make your WAF go through the roof.
• Commercial skipping can be more accurate and work faster with comskip instead of smartskip. It takes a bit more work to set up for sure, but its better imho.
• Nielm's 3rd party Web Admin does nearly everything SS's does and then some.
• Integration of Movies, Music, Photos and other HTPC functions with TV. This was one of the main reasons I switched.
• The team at SageTV is focused on you, the enthusiast consumer. SS is a bit distracted with the whole Enterprise thing these days in my opinion - I don't blame them for doing so, but its not really a good thing for the consumer customer.

I'll stop now. As you can see I think SageTV might take a little longer to learn and for someone switching a little longer to love, but you won't be sorry.

I'd love to see a "SageTV Ultimate Install" or something that rolled the cool features (commercial skip, fanart, the nice library replacements, ability to play ripped DVDs/ISOs, upgraded webserver, RSS feeds, etc, etc, etc) into one installation package that guided the user through the configuration so they could be up and running (and having positive experiences) with SageTV as quickly as possible -- make these features available out-of-the-box. At the bare minimum, it would be nice if SageTV's installer installed/configured ComSkip (or ShowAnalyser) instead of making it a separate process. Commercial skipping, to my mind, is a core function of a HTPC/PVR and should be installed as part of the core.

That would be nice, but probably will never happen. The closed you'll get to that would be with the 3rd Party SageMC add-on that bundles several add-ons into one as well as much, much more.

There's really not THAT much tweaking that has to be done. I'd start this way:

1. Install SageTV on your main computer
2. Figure out your remote control setup and get it working the way you want it to. Its difficult for me to address here without knowing what you use and how you use it. Just know you can make just about any keystroke or remote press do anything as you can change the way things work with this.
3. Run the BeyondTV to SageTV process to get everything imported into SageTV properly.
4. Install Nielms Web Admin - it's easy and takes about 3 minutes or less.
5. Install comskip and follow the instructions on GeekTonic (shameless plug) to set it up. It takes about 10 minutes max to set this up.
6. Sit back and enjoy for a few days. Make sure everything is working right on the TV side of things without messing with settings or anything else.
7. After you feel things are working the way you want them to, back everything up. Don't skip this step please
8. Now install any 3rd party add-ons not mentioned above. Don't go crazy - install one, wait a day or so to be sure all is well before installing another one.

For the record... I bought SageTV on 3/20/2009. At this point I am still using Beyond TV full-time because it ...just works... and doesn't require add-ons, XML editing, or other behind the scenes tweaks to get the basic functionality I want. Sure, Beyond TV is limited compared to SageTV, but so is the free time that I can spend mucking around with the internals.

Tell us what your having to mess with. XML editing?

On a side note, I've become accustomed to the way Beyond TV displays the library (by show) and have not found a satisfactory equivalent in SageTV.

You'll probably be happy with SageMC (3rd party add-on) and what it can do. For fun I created a BeyondSage Theme that might look kind of familiar to you

One last question... How do I exit the program guide WITHOUT using the mouse?! My remote is the full-sized Firefly.[/quote]
Home Key does the trick as mentioned above.

Don't be shy around here - if you're having trouble with something or you wish you could do ????? in SageTV like you could in BTV post your issue. There's ususally a way to do it. Cheers,