Call for Action: Help with Pros of SageTV over MS Media Center

[Brent]

Originally Posted by tpboyce

5) True HD/DVD quality.

What do you mean by that one?

[SWKerr]

The SageTV HDExtender handles all media formats, can view ripped DVDs (VMC can’t as far as I know) and is cheaper.

Since you can get a Xbox360 for $199 I don't think you can say it is cheaper. you can argue it is better but not cheaper. The Xbox360 is relatively big, hot and loud compared to the Sage extender but they are fairly comparable in features. If you like Media Center you will be happy with the features included.

I have heard the interface argument a lot but Sage can look very nice and modern with SageMC and some of the themes. It is also customizable. I have always found the MCE\VMC interface difficult to navigate. It looks pretty but takes a lot more clicking and effort to find what I am looking for. Generally I think it sucks.

I can't say when I used MCE that it was very reliable. Driver problems, Guide problems, missed all kinds of recording not to mention you had to have a analog tuner or it would not work. If I recall it still has that limit in Vista.

I would like to know if anyone has tried to move or recover their MCE setup. I have always abandoned it but based on what I know it would be very difficult to move machines or recover my show info and favorites.

Microsoft centric. Open standards. God help you if you want to play or import something Microsoft didn't invent. They support a few but them seem to think they shouldn't have to.

[babgvant]

Trying not to duplicate, but there may be some overlap

Sage Pro:
- Designed for extensibility, almost anything can be added to the platform
- Genuine sense that those that work for Sage are listening, and delivering features that matter to me (i.e. I can tell that the SW is built for me to use, not for HP to sell). May not matter if the OOTB MC experience is exactly what you're looking for
- Anyone can customize Sage, how many of the STV developers are professional SW developers?
- Isn't afraid to trust someone else's tech, MS burns crazy dev $ constantly recreating the wheel (dvr-ms & wtv) so that it can be done their way. While there are some benefits (like embedded metadata), the experience is clearly not targeted to end-user convenience (i.e. broken 3rd party tools, and not just the free ones). Also speeds time to market.
- Sage can add features that MS is afraid to
- Easy to backup (wiz.bin, properties files); when I rebuilt my OS my migration plan was writing down all my favorites and reentering them back in after a rebuild.

Sage Con:
- Cutting edge = some bleeding (i.e. demuxer); although I'd be fine if I didn't bring it on myself
- Too much tinkering required

VMC Pro:
- stable
- requires less tinkering to get working (Sage really needs to reduce the amount of notepad time required)

VMC Con:
- while developers can create addins that create new experiences (OML, vmcNetflix), if you want to add functionality to the OOTB experiences (TV, DVD Library, Videos) it is incredibly difficult. Simple things like marking the scrub bar with commercial spans are impossible.
- building addins is complex (MCML), platform fights you along the way
- working with DVR-MS files is a PITA, MS underdocuments the container (even though it's technically part of the PSDK), and deliberately obfuscates media type information
- while the UI is pretty, there is only one choice
- no direct control over codecs

Other:
- Problems with playback (i.e. VMR trouble) are not unique to Sage, taking a quick browse through TGB there are plenty of users who can't get decent playback.
- VMC supports 2 NTSC, and 2 ATSC tuners w/o hacks; Fiji supports more

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by mikesm

I'll try not to duplicate the ones listed before:

On the VMC side:

Much better 3rd party developer support. Just look at the plugins for Netflix, PowerDVD (for Bluray playback), photo printing, home automation, etc... Users build the plugins for Sage, but the vendors do it for VMC.

Why I agree Media center has better plugins it is no vendors providing the plugins but users same as sagetv. Babgvant provide dvrms toolbox the addin commercial skip and one of the most valued add-ins I used. aLSO NETFLIX did not provide a plugin direct to Media Center a user did all of that coding on his on time. I just think there are more users in media center and that is why you see better plugins plus the sdk opens allot of I believe.

[babgvant]

Forgot to add:

- Video / DVD bookmarks (MC doesn't do either OOTB, although video bookmarks were added to 7MC)

[calypsocowboy]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, but SageTV currently supports digital subchannels. Vista doesn't, you need to go to TV Pack 2008 which has it's own set of issues, or Win7 to get subchannel information which is a problem with the digital switch over.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

Why I agree Media center has better plugins it is no vendors providing the plugins but users same as sagetv. Babgvant provide dvrms toolbox the addin commercial skip and one of the most valued add-ins I used. aLSO NETFLIX did not provide a plugin direct to Media Center a user did all of that coding on his on time. I just think there are more users in media center and that is why you see better plugins plus the sdk opens allot of I believe.

Really? Cyberlink's powerDVD comes with a BR playback plugin that is integrated and done by the vendor, and I have seen at least a couple home automation plugins that were vendor provided as well.

[aflat]

Originally Posted by SWKerr

The SageTV HDExtender handles all media formats, can view ripped DVDs (VMC can’t as far as I know) and is cheaper.

Since you can get a Xbox360 for $199 I don't think you can say it is cheaper. you can argue it is better but not cheaper. The Xbox360 is relatively big, hot and loud compared to the Sage extender but they are fairly comparable in features. If you like Media Center you will be happy with the features included.

This was the whole reason I left VMC, they aren't comparable at all. VMC on an Xbox360 can only play MP4 and WMV. The MP4 files have to be smaller then 4gigs to even stream. Sure you can transcode, but that gets painful once you start watching blu-ray movies.

Pros of sage:
- The development tools are documented! Trying to get info from VMC api's is painful. Dvrtoolbox(the comskip of VMC) doesn't work for commercial skipping anymore because MS documents their api's differently then they actually work.
- Extenders that work like they should. They play just about anything you throw at them instead of having to jump through hoops to get a mkv file to play.

Pros of vmc:
- It's pretty. SageMC is nice, but VMC is pretty out of the box. This is only a partial pro since I prefer functionality over prettiness, but I did pick SageMC over the default UI for a reason.
- MyMovies. It's really nicely done. There are addons that are close for Sage, but MyMovies is really well done.
- The LiveTV is nicer with VMC. Rolling buffers and faster channel changes made my wife like VMC better for LiveTV. Fortunately we don't watch it much.

ties:
- Community support. Sage has a great community, but it is small. You get better answers from the Sage forums, but there are just so many more people on TheGreenButton that it's hard to compete. Someone somewhere on that forum has seen just about every issue you can think of.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Really? Cyberlink's powerDVD comes with a BR playback plugin that is integrated and done by the vendor, and I have seen at least a couple home automation plugins that were vendor provided as well.

Read the reviews of cyberlink's "integration" it is far from good. I tried it and it sucks to be blunt. Sagetv integration with extenders is true integration.

That being said yes there are some vendors out there writing apps for media center but the majority of valuable apps that the average user uses are freeware written by other media center users. The original poster pointed to netflix and that was a user developed app not provided by netflix themselves.

[tpboyce]

Originally Posted by Brent

What do you mean by that one?

My DVDs, ripped to mpg, do not upscale on my TV, and you can definitely tell the difference. My OTA signal, using the same HDHR looks entirely different on the Sage. I was a MS advocate for a long time. It would take a lot to swing me back!

[Brent]

Okay folks. The podcast is complete and ready for a listen if anyone's interested. I joined four others in a debate/conversation on the merits of SageTV vs. Windows Media Center.

Hopefully I didn't misstate anything in the podcast, but if I did point them out by commenting here or on the HTPCentrc podcast website.

There is no way to really cover each difference with pros and cons of the two in an hour long podcast, but we covered many of the high points. I'll do a followup blog post next week on GeekTonic to get more detailed.

You can listen to the SageTV vs. MS Media Center podcast here

[Ryokurin]

The ability to weigh tuners. meaning you can specify that tuner x is used before tuner y if they both can access the same channels. It came in handy back when I had a tuner directly connected to a cable box.

Ability to handle as many tuners ass your computer can handle without the need to deal with registry settings and other BS.

The ability to listen to music via the web server instead of just set recordings (although I admit the microsoft solution is more polished.)

To my knowledge the new file format introduced in the tv pack isn't editable yet.

The ability to specify multiple drives as storage folders. An example was that I used a D partition and a separate hard drive set to G to store recordings. with MCE I had to choose either G or lose the D partition.

[tmiranda]

I listened to the podcast - very interesting. The VMC guy came off as cocky IMHO. (e.g. when he said the Sage interface looked like it was drawn by a child in crayon.) Brent, you have way more patience than I do You seemed to be playing "defense" too often, I wish you would have taken the argument to him a little more - you're just too nice a guy!

[Brent]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

I listened to the podcast - very interesting. The VMC guy came off as cocky IMHO. (e.g. when he said the Sage interface looked like it was drawn by a child in crayon.)

Nah, he was just trying to make his case for Windows Media Center. There is definitely a stigma of "fugly" for the UI which I honestly don't agree with entirely, but that being said, I would really like to see the SageTV team hire a UI developer even if on a consultant basis. It's not all that bad, but pitted against some of the competition the default interface pales in comparison imo (Disclaimer: I know this isn't the view of everyone )

Brent, you have way more patience than I do You seemed to be playing "defense" too often, I wish you would have taken the argument to him a little more - you're just too nice a guy!

Well I probably did let a few things go. But we were trying to keep it down to an hour (we actually exceeded an hour a bit) and I didn't want to use up all of the time. I think the listener will hear some of the responses and hopefully realize many of those myths about non-MS Media Center issues are not true.

Had there only been two of us debating I might have been a little tougher. You'll note though that the MC users even put out a few positives about SageTV in the conversation so they were nice at times as well. I'm posting a better comparison on GeekTonic this week that will include many of the points everyone's made above - that should create some fun discussion.

[Polypro]

It was a good listen. I didn't think there was any cockiness in the comments (at least nothing worse than you'll get here when a UI thread comes up ). It may be my bias showing, but it sounded like they knew they were beaten on a lot of the features. They represented VMC well...I expected a lot of slings and arrows that never materialized. Nice job Brent.

P

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by Ryokurin

The ability to weigh tuners. meaning you can specify that tuner x is used before tuner y if they both can access the same channels. It came in handy back when I had a tuner directly connected to a cable box.

Ability to handle as many tuners ass your computer can handle without the need to deal with registry settings and other BS.

The ability to listen to music via the web server instead of just set recordings (although I admit the microsoft solution is more polished.)

To my knowledge the new file format introduced in the tv pack isn't editable yet.

The ability to specify multiple drives as storage folders. An example was that I used a D partition and a separate hard drive set to G to store recordings. with MCE I had to choose either G or lose the D partition.

I agree with most of this but tuner prioity is address in tvpack and w7

[Polypro]

I guess one of the main points that could have been addressed better was upgrades:

From 2.2.8 to 6.5.9, I"ve paid exactly once...$30 for v6.

P

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Polypro

I guess one of the main points that could have been addressed better was upgrades:

From 2.2.8 to 6.5.9, I"ve paid exactly once...$30 for v6.

P

Yeah that was a tough one for me to address on-the-spot. Cause I've only been with SageTV full-time since December 2007 and never had to pay for an upgrade

I'll be sure and mention it in my GeekTonic post...

[JetreL]

Maybe once this grows to a reasonable range we can update the Wiki to reflect the Pro's and Con's


Wiki

[Polypro]

Originally Posted by Brent

Yeah that was a tough one for me to address on-the-spot. Cause I've only been with SageTV full-time since December 2007 and never had to pay for an upgrade

I'll be sure and mention it in my GeekTonic post...

Since you're going to follow up:

Softsled...it seemed like a computer client was brushed over as unimportant these days. While extenders are nice and simple, if you want to do more than watch TV at a location, with the least clutter...a client computer is the ticket. I have three clients: Daughter's laptop in her room, Wife's office, My office. They are all rather small, so adding TV's and extenders would take up space & money. Clients are awesome and MCE can't do Softsled.

P