Whole-house audio over ethernet with control at each zone

[CPA]

Here’s what I want to do. A Multi-zone audio network where each zone has a PC connected to an amp and speakers; where all zones can be “on” simultaneously without delay; where each PC can display and control THE media player, ie. I want to be able to start audio in one zone, go to another zone and open up the same media player and see the audio already running, but then be able to control (skip tracks, etc) from the secondary zone . I would prefer to send the audio over ethernet rather than running audio cable all over the house. Is this possible? SageTV Client? SageTV Placeshifter? J.River Multi-Zone? Airport Express? Airfoil? Remote Desktop?

[Djc208]

I'd think you're going to want to look into a dedicated system for this type of setup, or maybe different software. The PCs in each room will want to work individually, and while you could probably get them to interact the way you wanted it's not really what Sage is meant for, so it's not going to be simple or easy I would think.

Now you could have one computer feeding a zoned audio system for the whole house and use either a remote or remote computers to control that one PC. But client and placeshifter don't change what is happening in other Sage instances, so you won't be able to control playback from SageTV in the living room with placeshifter in the bedroom, or the other way around.

[CPA]

So Remote Desktop or VNC software would probably be the only way to achieve this, correct? Will a Harmony Remote through USB-UIRT control a remote desktop window the same way a mouse and keyboard do?

[cncb]

If you are not interested in video, multiple Logitech Squeezebox's would give you all this without the need for a PC at each location.

[paulbeers]

I can tell you that multiple PC's will never work for perfect synchonization. Each sound card has its own frequency and therefore the audio will slowly begin to drift out of sync. As stated, your best bet is to either look into a true whole house audio system or go with devices specifically designed for this purprose (such as the logitech product mentioned).

For my house, I have to VNC into my Sage server to run winamp to create music lists and I have the output of the sound card (on the sage server) connected to a 7 way composite amplifier. Then each output is connected to a fairly cheap 50watt stereo amplier for rooms where no receiver exists. In rooms where a receiver exists, I have run a set of stereo RCA cables from the composite amplifeir to one of the receiver's inputs. This is how I have 6 different sets of speakers all able to listen to the same song at once. The downside to this, is that its an all or nothing sort of process in that I can't have say the deck listening to one thing and the basement rec room listening to something else.

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by CPA

So Remote Desktop or VNC software would probably be the only way to achieve this, correct? Will a Harmony Remote through USB-UIRT control a remote desktop window the same way a mouse and keyboard do?

Not necessarily, it's just one of the ways. There may be a program out there that would let you do what you want. An audio program that offered a web-remote would be another option. Then you could use something like an iPod touch over a wi-fi connection to control audio anywhere in the house. The Sage webserver offers a remote but it's not two-way, just a screen of buttons to click.

These are still based around one PC serving music and the others offering control. It wouldn't let you make all the PCs in the house start playing the same music unless they were constantly tied in so that each was just relaying the music from the remote machine, but I'd bet you'll get a delay between the source machine and the rest of the PCs. I also don't think you can have multiple machines remote desktoped into another at one time.

Not sure about the Uirt, I haven't used them. The problem with the Harmony is that I don't think they offer RF so you have issues controlling it without LOS to the reciever. If you want a remote look at a URC model. Most offer an add-on RF-to-IR converter. The old ATI AIW remotes were RF too and plugged directly into the PC but their range wasn't always the best. A Bluetooth setup could work too.

[IVB]

In the "more info than you'd ever want" department:

1) Get a hardware matrix switcher or whole-house-audio-amp, otherwise those synchro issues will kill you.

I got a used NuVo Concerto 8zone/6source amp off eBay for $500, it came with 3 keypads.

2) Determine how you want to feed it sources (ie, mp3's)
I got an M-Audio Delta 410 music card which can serve 4 concurrent different sources off eBay for $40. That said, i only currently need 1 source as we never listen to different mp3's in different rooms at the same time. (don't confuse sources with zones - source is, well, a given song. Zones are which rooms you want to listen in)

3) Determine how you want to control it - local keypads, cheap-ass wallmounted touchscreen PC, or laptops/full PCs in your house.
It's ethernet controllable, I personally use both keypads & CQC for control via PCs but there are other, cheaper options.

I can use either the keypad mounted in the 3 zones, or the screen below which is on my wallmounted touchscreen in the kitchen or any PC in da house to control it. My touchscreen PC is a Fujitsu 3400 which is available on eBay for $100 (or i'm selling one off for $75), and can run your software.

NOTE: This is just how I wanted my screens to look, you can create any skin you want with any look&feel.



I used to be delusional and think a wifi PDA would be good for in-home control, so I created these screens. I never bothered improving usability, and used them for all of 10 minutes, because my god is it hard to select a song from a 4" screen.

[TorontoSage]

I do this with Sonos. It is a system where speakers are connected to a player (which are about $399-499 new and you need one per speaker set or sets), which is a small box which can be located in the room or centrally. One player is direct connected to your router and the others are wireless. Music is read off any NAS or hard drive located anywhere in the house and you don't have to have a computer even on as long as the NAS is on. The music is sent to the players wirelessly through a proprietary mesh network that the Sonos sets up in parallel to the one you already have in your house. You can send 32 different streams of music to 32 different rooms or the same music to some or all of them, with perfect synchronization. You control it through either a desktop application, Sonos proprietary wireless handheld ($349 new, but waterproof, so you can use it in the shower or tub) controllers or through an iTouch/iPhone (free application but not waterproof! lol) running the Sonos controller software. It is also integrated with a number of music services. You can play any music in the house you want, anywhere, anytime, from the internet or digital files. You can also play records, tapes, CD's, iPods, etc. through an analog input on the player (and share it throughout the house), but the only thing you cannot do is control it through the player (you have to go to the device). But, if most of your music is digital or you want to convert it to digital, then you have full control. You can have as many or few players in the house as you want and one player can be connected to 2 sets of speakers if you want.

It's robust, powerful and simply and easy to set up (it took me 5 minutes out of the box to set my first one up). It seems like exactly what you are looking for - www.sonos.com. There are other systems out there that are more sophisticated that include home automation control, but for music you'll never find something for this price that simply 'works' and that you don't have to be a techie at all to install or operate.

You can run the audio output of the SageTV into the Sonos player if you want to take advantage of it's amplification and distribution capabilities. Now, if you use it alongside SageTV you do end up using the handheld Wifi controller for music and an IR remote for Sonos (with the extenders) but this is no hardship really, given the benefits of both systems.

Some interesting tidbits: Ironically, the CEO of SageTV since 2005, Mike Machado, used to work for the CEO and co-founder of Sonos, John McFarlane, at a company called Software.com, which the latter founded and then sold. SageTV, now located in Inglewood, CA, was founded in 2003, while Sonos, located in Santa Barbra, CA was founded in 2002. Similar start dates, one occupying a niche video space, one occupying a niche audio space, both private companies, CEO's who both worked at the same company, located within a 100 miles of eachother... Hmmmm, maybe there will be some synergy or a merger between the two in the future!

[IVB]

btw, that requires distributing speaker cable throughout the house. if you're dead set against running speaker cable, note that you can use inexpensive baluns with your cat5 to distribute line-level audio and just use a passive matrix switcher a la Xantech or Autopatch. I used to do that, those things are maybe $150 oneBay. But then you have the issue of local amplification, which just drives the cost up more.

[PLUCKYHD]

I sell Sonos systems and they are great in the fact they just work plain and simple 100% of the time.

[nebulink]

Sonos is the best solution. Provides perfect sync between all zones or provides the ability to listen to something different in each zone. The system is completely wireless and there is no need to run speaker wires throughout the entire house.

I purchased a Sonos system about a year ago and just love it. I have 5 zones and my kids, wife and I use it all the time. It is really easy to setup and use.

[cncb]

Sonos is interesting but brace yourself for the cost. $1000 for a basic system with 2 zones of music. You could buy 5 HD200's for that which will also give you tv and high-def video.

[IVB]

Originally Posted by cncb

Sonos is interesting but brace yourself for the cost. $1000 for a basic system with 2 zones of music. You could buy 5 HD200's for that which will also give you tv and high-def video.

Yep, I think Sonos is great for an audio-only solution but it'll cost you. But seriously, most DIY'ers are of the mentality that they always want more and more and more.

I purchased a Squeezebox Duet receiver as my online sirius source, there are those also using it to be a source for mp3's into their whole-house-audio systems. I didn't get the controller as I have the above means of control, but that might be a good "middle of the road" solution as you can use their wifi controller to manage it, but if you choose to upgrade later on the receiver portion is re-usable.

[TorontoSage]

No, Sonos is not cheap (I did include the prices in my post above), but the thing is so easy to install, so easy to use, is so powerful and has first class customer support.

If you can afford it, it's some of the best money you'll ever spend on electronics in your home.

[PLUCKYHD]

Agreed I have never had a customer call and compain about a sonos system I have sold.

Also with the new iphone/itouch app that is FREE!! is is great.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by nebulink

The system is completely wireless and there is no need to run speaker wires throughout the entire house.

Just for those who might misinterpret your statement (which I did when I read the same thing before I started researching the system):

It is not completely wireless in that the speakers still have to be hardwired to the Sonos Zoneplayers (ZP's). The ZP's can be located anywhere, though, as they communicate with eachother and transfer various streams of music around to the zones that are calling for the music wirelessly. It doesn't matter where you locate your Sonos ZP's but wherever you do (closet, shelf in the room, central equipment closet), you have to have the speakers (which can be in the ceiling, free standing, etc) wired to the ZP allocated to the zone (ie room or rooms you want to hear a separate stream of music in).

I think I have decided how to best employ the ZP's with the SageTV HD200 extenders which I haven't even bought yet. The analog audio L/R output or digital output from the extenders could be input into the analog audio L/R or digital input line-in on the amplified ZP or unamplified ZP's respectively (they have both amplified and unamplified ZP's depending on whether you want to use your own amp or not). Given the extenders are usually located in the room, you'd want the ZP located in the room too. You could also locate the ZPs in a central equipment closet, but then that would not give you the full benefit of the mesh network that Sonos sets up. If the ZPs are then distributed around the various rooms, the mesh network is strengthened and extended beyond that which might happen if the ZPs were all located in one place. If you did locate the Sonos in centrally then you'd have to run the speaker wire back to that location AND run the audio wire form the HD100/200 extenders back to that location too. Of course, you wouldn't have to run those wires back to the Sonos if you wanted to use the TV's speakers. But, TV speakers, even HDTV ones, are usually poor quality and if you have ceiling speakers (and everyone should at least rough in the wiring for ceiling speakers to most rooms in the house), then why not use them as they are almost invariably better quality?

So when you want to watch TV, then you turn on the TV with the TV remote, access SageTV with the extender remote (or a third party remote that can both turn on the TV and operate SageTV, as the ones provided with the HD100/200 extenders don't operate the TV) and tune Sonos to line-in on the Sonos WiFi controller and set the volume. That takes about 10 seconds. Then you don't have to touch the Sonos remote again except if you want to change the volume.

If you want to listen to music after watching TV you just turn off the TV and SageTV and use the Wifi remote.

It's pretty simple and yes it is not as sophisticated a full HA system but it does meet a lot of people's needs without a lot of fuss.

I know that SageTV can also play music throughout the house, but I don't think it is anywhere close to as powerful as Sonos, is it? It certainly doesn't work through Wifi remotes, which is one of the most powerful features of the Sonos system. It absolutely and unequivocally untethers you from a computer and an iTouch/iPhone remote conveniently fits in your pocket (and, as mentioned before, you don't even have to have a computer on to listen to your digital music files, as long as they are stored on a NAS located somewhere in the house, and attached to a ZP, of course).

[mickp]

I use a multi zone system which I've cobbled together using a couple of different tools including reastream and savihost. More information here.

There's a basic install script which checks and downloads the required components though there is still some manual configuration required.

Any of the Sage systems can control which pc's are sending and receiving to/from each zone though there's no remote control of the actual sage player other than via vnc. If you do decide that you want to change the music that's playing in a zone you could always take charge of a Zone from whichever location you're at from the menu.

Using multicast mode the synch is pretty good between multiple receiving stations.

Mick.

[PLUCKYHD]

OKay Sonos is not meant be used with extenders for livetv it will introduces a slight delay in the sound as it has to to be able to keep it in synch in the entire house it is meant for music only.

[TorontoSage]

I know people who are using it with live tv (though a matrix switch) that have no problem with sync issues. And you'd thnk this would be a worst case scenario given the matrix switch is basically an all hardware no software solution which thus sends the video signal with the least delay possible (making the delay between the video signal and the Sonos that more pronounced).

Anyway, I'll let you know how my setup works once it's all installed.

[CPA]

Any experience with Airport Express or Airfoil? I have read that synch is not an issue with these. Is that true?