Sage becoming XBMC?

[Slipshod]

[QUOTE=TallMomof2;326378]There is a very steep learning curve with STV and I have a somewhat technical background (mechanical engineer, programming experience very dated... Fortran, some C) and I was intimidated by the plugins. I build my own computers and find STV difficult. I honestly didn't add in SageMC until about a month ago when I found Brent's tutorial. Since then I've added in a few more plugins but for casual users it's more than a little bit intimidating.[\quote]

Yes, exactly. SME seems to be assuming that the general public is confident and skilled enough to install 3rd-party developed add-ons, as well as deal with potential incompatibilities if they want to upgrade the core. They aren't.

By keeping Sage's stock UI in it's current state and relying on SageMC for your "nice-looking" GUI you are not only setting the product up for failure in evaluation situations, you are also narrowing your potential market down to people who are very computer literate. Frankly, it's an even narrower subset than that: those who could do it, and are willing to invest the time to customize it. Few of my friends are interested in Sage because it's seemed to take a LOT of my time to get setup correctly and a TIVO HD is much cheaper, easier to use, has what they need, and looks good.

I was drawn to SageTV primarily because it was the only real viable option for the R5000HD. I still sat on the sidelines for the better part of a year waiting to see if Nextcom would get it working with XP MCE. I would have continued waiting if I hadn't seen Brent's write-up on SageMC. The default UI was *NOT* acceptable to my wife; so you can chalk another sale (and the three co-workers I did manage to convince) to the SageMC team's excellent work as well as to Brent's evangelism.


Cheers,
Slipshod

[opusinteractive]

Some recent and relevant research data is available on the current and expected market of home theatre pc's (which would include the software needed to enable to the experience).

ABI Research came out with a report in March entitled Home Theater and Media Center PCs in the Living Room. This is a 62 page page report with 72 tables and figures of research data. This report is $4,200 so we have to rely on those who have purchased it and reported on it. Fortunately, ABI provides a list of articles where the report has been cited. Here, you can find articles with good data such as this one entitled 25 Million Home Theater PCs Installed Worldwide by 2013, Says ABI Research

As I said in an earlier post, players in this market are at a tipping point. This is the time for existing brands (especially pioneering ones such as SageTV) need to get their game on if they want to be relevant when VC's continue funding the "Boxees". There's going to be tons of money pumped into these companies (yes, even in THIS economy). There will be some disruptive new innovations as a result. If SageTV doesn't keep up on their own innovation, features, and marketing, the company will cease to exist in these market conditions.

Some things SageTV has done recently are pretty smart in my view. Developing an HD extender and then a standalone set top box has provided excellent learning experiences in building products. I believe this could possibly help them fend off some newcomers because of the rock solid reputation of the reliability of these devices (especially the HD-200). Building in the standalone funtionality to the HD-200 is also really, really smart - and telling of what SageTV understands about the future of Internet-based media content delivery.

One thing I've been curious about is to what extent (if any) SageTV licences its technology to other companies as the underlying application. When I see guys such as Nero and Roxio (among others) coming out with their own software, I'm curious if they have just skinned and branded someone else's solution. Can anyone answer this? Is this a model SageTV uses?

Now, here's what I would like to see in SageTV.

• Native DLNA support (within SageTV)
• Native (or tightly integrated) DRM player support for WMP's from providers such as Netflix, Blockbuster Online, Cinemanow, etc.
• Much greater ability to customize the UI and menu architecture without the need to be a developer, open properties or config files, or try to figure out Studio
• Much greater control over content listing/display without needing any of the above skills or "unsupported 3rd party plugins".

• I recently spent several hours setting up a new video library menu item linked to a new video library screen that filters the library content for my four year old so that it only displays his shows. This should not involve opening and editing an XML file.

• Additional plugins that are supported directly by SageTV

• It concerns me greatly that community developers may move on from SageTV and stop supporting plugins I use

• Improve the overall user experience by revamping the information architecture and UI (make it much more intuitive and engaging and "fun" to use).

• Begin building in social media/networking technologies

Example

A "SageTV Friends" type thing where you can share media, TV/Movie/Music ratings and reviews

• Portable media player synching
• Many, many of the features that have been developed in SageMC should be property of SageTV and therefore supported by SageTV. Make these guys great offers and who knows...they may join the SageTV team

That's what comes to mind right now. I'll come up with more I'm sure.

Oh...one last thing. As others have said here, let's all do our part to keep this thread free from clutter. I imagine it would be in our best interest to make it easy for the SageTV team to parse this thread for ideas. It's kinda silly to engage in debates that are so subjective such as personal opinions when SageTV has to think about a market of 25,000,000 households. Express yourself and be done with it. A couple people debating about which UI is better isn't going to have any weight or impact on how SageTV marches forward into the future.

Happy New Year!!!

[aaronb]

Originally Posted by OldPCGUY

The Life Hacker overview was a joke and not an apples to apples comparison and no real discussion of features. The guy who wrote the article probably does not have a clue how difficult HD playback can be.

XBMC could be the best playback GUI in the world but playbacking HD content on a PC for different formats and full 5.1 and DTS support then good luck. I expect most people using this are downloading very low quaility bit torrents and doing stereo playback only.

I also doubt that XBMC supports BlueRay playback which makes it useless.

Some one at work told me he could download a BlueRay movie and I laughed at him. BlueRay is ~25Gbytes and would take how long to download at 10Mbits/second (33 Hours!!!! UHG!).

I have looked at Beyond TV and Sage is the only deal out there that supports DVD Playback, Ripped Blueray Playback (HD-200), and recording from multiple sources and CC support!! etc. etc. DRM is a huge issue and was totally underplayed.

Let's not forget that XBMC does not support any hardware. So does this mean no remote?

It really gets me frustrated when someone wants to compare a Mazda Miata to Toyata Tundra Pickup. Both are great but totally different applications.

When you start your post by accusing someone else of not being fully informed on a topic you might not want to do the exact same thing yourself. Lots of faulty assumptions here.

[jimwhite]

The first item in your list is subjective. I'd say the default UI is, indeed, attractive and user-friendly.

You are kidding, right ?

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by Slipshod

SME seems to be assuming that the general public is confident and skilled enough to install 3rd-party developed add-ons, as well as deal with potential incompatibilities if they want to upgrade the core. They aren't.

The "general public" is going to use STBs and Tivo not Sage. Most people that are installing capture devices and Sage are probably capable of installing a 3rd party plugin too.

Originally Posted by jimwhite

You are kidding, right ?

No, I'm not.

[popechild]

Originally Posted by S_M_E

I can...

I finally figured out where I know you from. You're the guy who's always complaining about why people want GUI versions to your favorite command-line apps.

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by popechild

I finally figured out where I know you from. You're the guy who's always complaining about why people want GUI versions to your favorite command-line apps.

No, I'm the guy that puts trolls on ignore.

[samgreco]

Originally Posted by opusinteractive

Now, here's what I would like to see in SageTV.

• Native DLNA support (within SageTV)
• Native (or tightly integrated) DRM player support for WMP's from providers such as Netflix, Blockbuster Online, Cinemanow, etc.
• Much greater ability to customize the UI and menu architecture without the need to be a developer, open properties or config files, or try to figure out Studio
• Much greater control over content listing/display without needing any of the above skills or "unsupported 3rd party plugins".

• I recently spent several hours setting up a new video library menu item linked to a new video library screen that filters the library content for my four year old so that it only displays his shows. This should not involve opening and editing an XML file.

• Additional plugins that are supported directly by SageTV

• It concerns me greatly that community developers may move on from SageTV and stop supporting plugins I use

• Improve the overall user experience by revamping the information architecture and UI (make it much more intuitive and engaging and "fun" to use).

• Begin building in social media/networking technologies

Example

A "SageTV Friends" type thing where you can share media, TV/Movie/Music ratings and reviews

• Portable media player synching
• Many, many of the features that have been developed in SageMC should be property of SageTV and therefore supported by SageTV. Make these guys great offers and who knows...they may join the SageTV team

Now THIS is a discussion

You are absolutely on-point about customizing without the need to open XML or properties files. That's where the average user would lose it.

The idea that everytime a new version of a 3rd party STV comes out, the user needs to go back to the stock STV, then load the 3rd party STV, then load their theme, then their menu layout, then all of the plugins they use makes no sense to me. That's the kind of thing that makes people run away.

And if the market is growing as opusinteractive's post indicates, we are indeed approaching the tipping point. Especially for the small players.

And I think it's important to remember that most of us here, on this forum, are not the average user. We are the hobbyists, early adopters, geeks, etc. In order for the market to expand further, it has to reach the average user. The person that might be a Tivo customer, or who now has a Comcast DVR, but wants more. If Sage is to grow, they need to make it so easy to setup and use, that ANYONE can do it.

I shouldn't have to explain to my wife or mother how to use the television. And I have had to.

I truly believe that a user should RARELY have to go beyond the first menu screen to get to where they need to be. On my main system the main menu is:

Recorded TV
Program Guide
Schedule
Movies and Videos
Online Video
Search
Pictures
Tools and Settings

I rarely need to go any further than one deep.

If it weren't for dynamic menus what would I do? That should be a stock component of the software. Not a plugin.

[samgreco]

Originally Posted by JREkiwi

I don't really want to get into this discussion, but just to show how easy it is to fix little issues like this I've made an import for the Default STV here that makes the display of "those stupid icons" optional.

John

Thanks John. Almost proves some of these points. I had no idea this existed. I will check it out.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by samgreco

Now THIS is a discussion

You are absolutely on-point about customizing without the need to open XML or properties files. That's where the average user would lose it.

I just want to say this (not that it disagrees with the sentiment) but no one should ever be editing SageTV XML files, they are not meant to be hand edited.

The idea that everytime a new version of a 3rd party STV comes out, the user needs to go back to the stock STV, then load the 3rd party STV, then load their theme, then their menu layout, then all of the plugins they use makes no sense to me. That's the kind of thing that makes people run away.

FWIW, it sounds like that's a "problem" with SageMC (one of the reasons I'm not big on SageMC). The stock STV is actually quite nice now, you define which "plugins" you want included, and the STV is automatically updated when the main one changes.

All that said, I completely agree with the overall sentiment. I think Sage needs a true skinning system, more akin to other apps. Studio is amazing for what it is, but it's an SDK, not a skinning interface. The other thing is Sage doesn't support plugins (or nobody's figured out how to do it), STVi's are patches to the original STV code, not "plugins".

I think true skinning and plugin systems could go a long way to making Sage more, shall we say, "community development" friendly.

And if the market is growing as opusinteractive's post indicates, we are indeed approaching the tipping point. Especially for the small players.

CES could be interesting this year, last year, I think Dish Network had a demo streaming satellite from a Dish STB to a Pioneer Blu-ray player running SageTV software.

[Brent]

The idea that everytime a new version of a 3rd party STV comes out, the user needs to go back to the stock STV, then load the 3rd party STV, then load their theme, then their menu layout, then all of the plugins they use makes no sense to me. That's the kind of thing that makes people run away.

Originally Posted by stanger89

FWIW, it sounds like that's a "problem" with SageMC (one of the reasons I'm not big on SageMC).

Not really true. It's just that SageMC's STV gets updated much more often so people (me included) load a new SageMC STV, and in turn need to re-import any STVi's after doing so. Just as you mentioned, the STVi's are simply patches to the STV, so loading a new-fangled STV requires that you re-patch that STV after doing so. Works exactly the same as it does in SageTV's default STV.

What the stock (default) STV is now doing (if you have it set to do so in the settings) is re-importing STVi's after an update. SageMC could do the same thing - just hasn't been added yet.

All that said, I completely agree with the overall sentiment. I think Sage needs a true skinning system, more akin to other apps. ...

I think true skinning and plugin systems could go a long way to making Sage more, shall we say, "community development" friendly.

Agreed, but I'm sure there is the fear that any major change in that breaks all the "plugins" and themes that are available today. Could be fixed with some work, but you know how that goes.

CES could be interesting this year, last year, I think Dish Network had a demo streaming satellite from a Dish STB to a Pioneer Blu-ray player running SageTV software.

Yeah, I sure wish we'd see something like SageTV extender functionality built in to a blu-ray. Or the ability to record from DishNetwork would be even better. I'm not holding my breath on that though. Haven't heard any confirmation that SageTV will be represented at CES this year. I think they shared a booth with Hauppauge last year right?

[popechild]

Originally Posted by S_M_E

No, I'm the guy that puts trolls on ignore.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[tmiranda]

I also think the UI needs to be updated. XBMC is in my mind currently the gold standard.

I use the stock STV. A few months ago I showed my wife SageMC running on a PC Client and asked her if she would like to see it on the TV. (All TV's have HD100's). Her response was "No way, It looks too complicated. I like what we have."

I've suggested for some time to have several UIs available and have the user pick one during installation.

[LehighBri]

Wow what have I started here with this thread?? I go away for a couple days and come back to pages and pages. Keep the great discussion up. Needlesstosay, this is a pivotal ear for sage. I look forward to seeing what a thread like this looks like in jan 2010!

[Brent]

Originally Posted by LehighBri

Wow what have I started here with this thread?? I go away for a couple days and come back to pages and pages.

Bri,
You're such a troublemaker...

[kricker]

Originally Posted by OldPCGUY

...
XBMC could be the best playback GUI in the world but playbacking HD content on a PC for different formats and full 5.1 and DTS support then good luck. I expect most people using this are downloading very low quaility bit torrents and doing stereo playback only.

I also doubt that XBMC supports BlueRay playback which makes it useless....

I have looked at Beyond TV and Sage is the only deal out there that supports DVD Playback, Ripped Blueray Playback (HD-200), and recording from multiple sources and CC support!! etc. etc. DRM is a huge issue and was totally underplayed.

Let's not forget that XBMC does not support any hardware. So does this mean no remote?

It really gets me frustrated when someone wants to compare a Mazda Miata to Toyata Tundra Pickup. Both are great but totally different applications.

From your post I am going to assume you haven't used XBMC. 1st and foremost, you are correct, Sage and XBMC are two totally different applications at their root. Sage is a PVR app first and a media center second. XBMC is a media center only, no PVR at all (for now*). XBMC does have remote support, but I for one control it the same way I control all my apps by remote, using Event Ghost, Sage included. XBMC does play a variety of HD material. I do it every day. No BlueRay yet, but at the speed XBMC moves forward I'd almost feel safe holding my breath waiting on it There is also a way for XBMC to use external players to playback BlueRay, or any other video you want if you like, heck it might even be possible to pass the file over to Sage for playback if you got creative.

I use them both, heck I use Meedio as well. I've also used BTV, MediaPortal, GBPVR, Elise, myHTPC, xLobby and others I am sure to have forgotten. I've settled for Meedio and Sage running together for a long time now. Now I am switching to an XBMC and Sage setup. I merely switch to Sage from XBMC for my TV needs, then switch back for anything else. I do this totally from within each apps GUI. I have a menu item in XBMC that switches to Sage and something similar in Sage to go back to XBMC. It might not appear seamless, but it works well. In the past (and sometimes I still do), I use the sageTV xbmc script/plugin that allows me to view recordings, check the recording schedule and control my Sage favorites from within XBMC.

Here is a quick clip of my running Sage and XBMC in tandem. It's an old clip using the AEON XBMC skin. Now I use Mediastream....but that's another story.

Anyhow, I think I've rambled enough. I guess my point is if someone likes the slickness of XBMC why not use it in tandem with Sage. Maybe Sage's UI will get there one day, but there would need to be a lot of work under the hood for that to happen.

*There is a side project going on over at XBMC that would allow integration into the XBMC front end the PVR functionality of many different PVR applications. They do already have some integration with Myth.

[Patilan]

Originally Posted by LehighBri

Although I've been a loyal user of SageTV for 3+ years now, I recently installed the latest Atlantis version of XBMC to check out what all of the rage is with that app and was nothing less than blown away

O.M.G.!

I wish somebody told me about XBMC before! This stuff is amazing!

Are you kidding? Sage doesn't even know how to deal with subtitles in my video files! Now how basic is that?

----
BTW, after trying XBMC, I can't help but feel kinda stupid for sheepishly sticking around here for so many years, waiting for someting to happen....

Well, it just happened!

[m0ng00se30]

As someone who has used Sage since the 1.x days, and someone who just installed XBMC. There is room for both of them on your HTPC. XBMC has flawless media playback of most files on my HTPC. Its played every file I have thrown at it. Sage on the other hand isn't always there. I have to make sure my files are created to play on Sage correctly.

Kricker if you could let me know how you are accomplishing that swap between Sage and XBMC I would be very thankful.
I like eye candy, but I need something my wife and kids can use. I don't want xbmc to be sage and I dont want sage to be xbmc, but something that can melt the two together would be bliss.

--mike

[kricker]

Originally Posted by m0ng00se30

As someone who has used Sage since the 1.x days, and someone who just installed XBMC. There is room for both of them on your HTPC. XBMC has flawless media playback of most files on my HTPC. Its played every file I have thrown at it. Sage on the other hand isn't always there. I have to make sure my files are created to play on Sage correctly.

Kricker if you could let me know how you are accomplishing that swap between Sage and XBMC I would be very thankful.
I like eye candy, but I need something my wife and kids can use. I don't want xbmc to be sage and I dont want sage to be xbmc, but something that can melt the two together would be bliss.

--mike

Ditto.

Sure, I can help you with that. It's just a simple xml edit for the XBMC skin of your choice, or using the Launcher plugin. And a similar type edit in studio to switch back from Sage or using neilm dynamic menus. PM me and we can discuss it.

[popechild]

Kricker, just watched your video. Are you switching over to Sage when you first select Sage from the main menu, or on each of the individual selections of recordings/guide/etc? Basically, is that "tv" menu that shows the different tv options a Sage menu or an XBMC menu? (And great job on the integration - the styles you're using really do make it look pretty seamless. I never thought I'd be interetested in something like that, but now you've got me curious!)

Oops. Dang. Just remembered that I do 90% of my viewing from an extender, and I'm assuming neither the Sage extender or any XBMC-capable extenders that might be out there are capable of playing together, right? Oh well, I guess I'm back to waiting either for XBMC to develop Sage-like PVR capabilities or for Sage to develop an XBMC-like interface in order to reach htpc nirvana. Sometimes I wish I didn't discover all this stuff until 5 years from now when all these issues will be already figured out.