Sage becoming XBMC?

[LehighBri]

Although I've been a loyal user of SageTV for 3+ years now, I recently installed the latest Atlantis version of XBMC to check out what all of the rage is with that app and was nothing less than blown away by the slick user interface, the animations, the amazing skins, and the way it seamlessly and automatically grabs metadata and fanart.

I've noticed a variety of new features in SageMC (fanart) and new SageMC plugins (TV info screen and Movie info screen) that are pushing hard to mimic user interface and usability features within XBMC, but just aren't there yet.

Is there any way Sage can reuse some of XBMC's architecture and/or open source code to implement some of these amazing features directly in Sage? A neat XBMC feature off the top of my head is built-in support for a slew of "scrapers" that can pull down metadata and fanart for TV Shows and Movies, automatically! More info below:

XBMC's built in screen scraping for fanart
http://xbmc.org/wiki/?title=Set_Content_(Video_Library)

The point I'm really trying to make is, in my mind, SageTV is king when it comes to recording TV, extending TV, managing TV, and the various functions surrounding both. Where Sage is really lacking and where competitors (e.g. XBMC, Vista MCE) are quite frankly destroying Sage on is in user interface and usability, ESPECIALLY when it comes to managing media such as music and pictures. It is only getting worse over time as new competition such as Boxee comes out. Maybe it's just me, but I really would urge Sage to quickly start rethinking their long-term approach to UI and usability to have them sustain the momentum they have. It's scary to think what will happen when competition such as XBMC add true TV recording features. Some food for thought.

Any other thoughts/opinions/guidance here? Sage - I'm happy to help in any private/beta testing if you get to a point where you begin deploying new UI or usability features.

Update: Per Brent's suggestion, see below for an initial list of the neat features in XBMC I liked (note I only played with XBMC for 30 minutes so I'm sure there will be more)

• Built-in support for scrapers that automatically download metadata AND banner/fanart
• Built-in skins (especially mediastorm) are very eye-pleasing and have very high resolution support
• Built-in support for apple quicktime trailers (also pulls down very eye-pleasing movie posters for each trailer)
• Future support being built for fanart for music
• More to come...

[Brent]

I think everyone here is definitely open to ideas for improvement. SageMC has been making strides in that direction - not necessarily mimicking XBMC (actually Media Portal and Meedios are influences also), but hopefully taking the very solid DVR/PVR infrastructure behind SageTV and building in the UI and media things that work great on other HTPC programs and build some of those in as well.

Not sure about "carrying over" anything directly from XBMC or any of the others - probably have to let the actual developers comment on that - plus you'd want to have the original authors permission to do such a thing.

The most helpful thing you could do (other than offering to code ) is to explain in detail the things you like from XBMC and point those out here. It's not as easy as you might think to come up with how things should work.

[LehighBri]

Brent - completely agree with your points. I hesitated posting this thread but thought I'd do it anyway to continue to stress the importance of UI/usability for the long-term (not short-term) success of Sage. I will start a list in the first post and add some ideas there. Feel free to add more if I missed any.

[Addict]

Many (including myself) have been commenting for quite some time now on how the UI seems to be dated compared to the feature-set included within SageTV.

I have always had the same fears, that some other company would come in and do a better job with the UI...steal some Sage users because of it...then provide a comparable feature-set...and steal many more.

Ultimately, people like features...but they also like pretty. In many cases, pretty wins out. I really, really, really hope SageTV addresses this soon.

[Brent]

Pure speculation on my part:
I think (don't know for sure) that Jeff (Narflex at SageTV) knows there is a need for a UI update. The question is, will they be using their newly found resources ($$$ from extenders and new customers perhaps?) towards more UI development for SageTV7. I don't think we'll see anything on the UI side of things before SageTV7 other than the user developed stuff like we're seeing with the SageMC UI.

SageMC will continue to improve and evolve and that's where we're more likely to see the short-term UI improvements. I hope we'll see that in the default UI when SageTV7 comes along as well.


So for now, my focus is two-fold.
1st - make sure the folks at SageTV know what we would like to see
2nd - maintain the list of things to do for SageMC to include as much of the nice HTPC stuff people can dream up and the user devs of SageMC can put in there.

SageTV will never be XBMC, but hopefully it will be as good or better on the HTPC side of things and continue to be the go-to place for all TV/PVR things.

[popechild]

In nearly every one of the many, many times that sub-standard UI gets brought us as a user-complaint against Sage, there are folks who will quickly come to the rescue, either by arguing that 1) the UI's actually not that bad, 2) the SageMC UI is especially not that bad, or 3) functionality is so much more important than UI anyway.

What always seems to be forgotten in all these defenses is that it really doesn't matter whether some people are happy with the current UI or think that a snazzy UI shouldn't matter. The simple fact is that it does matter to a lot of people, whether it should or not, and as long as Sage is in the business of trying to attract customers (especially as it tries to attract non-techie customers), they'll need to address it. I use SageMC and am eternally thankful for it, but it's still nowhere near as slick as many of the UIs out there. And even if it were, the minute you say "just add a custom user-interface..." you've lost many of your potential customers. So to all those who are frustrated that people seem so enamored by a slick, snazzy UI, at some point you've got to just deal with it. People do, and they will continue to, and whether or not you think it should matter or whether you personally think the current UI is just fine, doesn't change the fact that the UI continues to be the #1 stumbling block that comes up over and over and over again when non-Sage users describe why they won't change to Sage.

[aaronb]

I'm a long time XBMC user, but I've also used most of the popular HTPC software, and none of them match XBMC when it comes to UI and ease of use for a media library. I recently switched from MythTV (3.5 years of pretty rock-solid use) to Sage solely for the HDPVR, but I only use Sage for TV recording because quite frankly, using it for all of my media would be a gigantic step backwards as far as usability goes (and the WAF would plummet, she loves XBMC).

XBMC has no plans to add TV recording features, so I don't see them as a threat to Sage in that respect. What they are working on is building in a frontend for the most common PVR software, sticking with the client/server model. They've already made great strides on MythTV, but they haven't really done anything for Sage yet. I've been playing around with the Python script someone here wrote to interact with Sage through XBMC, but it is buggy and incomplete so far. If that script were to become feature complete and stable I'd be happy as a pig in slop.

For now I just manage Sage through the web interface and watch recorded shows in XBMC through SMB because I'm not willing to give up XBMC's (actually Plex, but essentially the same thing) UI. I even purchased a client license to use on my Mac Mini frontend, but I gave up on using it because I'd rather just have one interface.

So what is at risk for Sage is maybe fewer client licenses or HD200s sold because people use an XBMC frontend to connect to a Sage server, or losing some customers to Myth or BeyondTV if there is a superior XBMC frontend to those programs. I was pretty happy with Myth, but wanted the HDPVR. Once Myth supports it the reasons for sticking with Sage (or starting to use it, in the case of new users) will diminish. Don't get me wrong, I've been very happy with Sage so far, but they need to catch up on the UI to keep up with the competition.

[LehighBri]

The biggest reason I even decided to dabble with XBMC was simply based on the screenshot comparison's in the Lifehacker article below. I'm sure Lifehacker could have included a better screenshot of Sage but you can very clearly see how dated the UI is and how, for folks that have never ever heard of Sage, would never ever use it when looking at a comparison like that (without seeing the side-by-side feature list). I'm still sticking with Sage for now given its great TV and extender support but am quite frankly going to work real hard to see how I can use XBMC as my primary HTPC app and have it pull in media that Sage records (XBMC even has comparable TV features such as EDL comskip support).

Lifehacker article: http://lifehacker.com/5103464/five-b...r-applications

[toricred]

One thing to remember is that the UI isn't the only problem for the non-techies. Setting up and maintaining a server is not for the non-techie.

[LehighBri]

Originally Posted by toricred

One thing to remember is that the UI isn't the only problem for the non-techies. Setting up and maintaining a server is not for the non-techie.

Agree, but setting up and maintaining a server is an issue with all HTPC software. The key here is how can we differentiate Sage above the competition (aka increase WAF!). And what is a non-techie doing using Sage in the first place?

[evilpenguin]

Built-in support for scrapers that automatically download metadata AND banner/fanart

I'm actually working on a standalone port of XBMC's scrapers

[Muchacho]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

I'm actually working on a standalone port of XBMC's scrapers

That will be great!

Also, coverart and metadata can already be automatically d/led using the great pluggin made by suckless.

I agree that a major UI overhaul is way past due.

[evilpenguin]

Well, not exactly a port. I think their scraper implementation, while powerful and functional, is over complicated and unintelligible.

I'm building a new one based off of the awesome profile engine I made for my encoding plug-in. The downside is that it won't be able to use their existing scraping profiles without modification, but on the upside you'll be able to create/maintain the profiles without your eyes bleeding.

[jvl711]

Originally Posted by LehighBri

Although I've been a loyal user of SageTV for 3+ years now, I recently installed the latest Atlantis version of XBMC to check out what all of the rage is with that app and was nothing less than blown away by the slick user interface, the animations, the amazing skins, and the way it seamlessly and automatically grabs metadata and fanart.

I've noticed a variety of new features in SageMC (fanart) and new SageMC plugins (TV info screen and Movie info screen) that are pushing hard to mimic user interface and usability features within XBMC, but just aren't there yet.

Is there any way Sage can reuse some of XBMC's architecture and/or open source code to implement some of these amazing features directly in Sage? A neat XBMC feature off the top of my head is built-in support for a slew of "scrapers" that can pull down metadata and fanart for TV Shows and Movies, automatically! More info below:

XBMC's built in screen scraping for fanart
http://xbmc.org/wiki/?title=Set_Content_(Video_Library)

The point I'm really trying to make is, in my mind, SageTV is king when it comes to recording TV, extending TV, managing TV, and the various functions surrounding both. Where Sage is really lacking and where competitors (e.g. XBMC, Vista MCE) are quite frankly destroying Sage on is in user interface and usability, ESPECIALLY when it comes to managing media such as music and pictures. It is only getting worse over time as new competition such as Boxee comes out. Maybe it's just me, but I really would urge Sage to quickly start rethinking their long-term approach to UI and usability to have them sustain the momentum they have. It's scary to think what will happen when competition such as XBMC add true TV recording features. Some food for thought.

Any other thoughts/opinions/guidance here? Sage - I'm happy to help in any private/beta testing if you get to a point where you begin deploying new UI or usability features.

Update: Per Brent's suggestion, see below for an initial list of the neat features in XBMC I liked (note I only played with XBMC for 30 minutes so I'm sure there will be more)

• Built-in support for scrapers that automatically download metadata AND banner/fanart
• Built-in skins (especially mediastorm) are very eye-pleasing and have very high resolution support
• Built-in support for apple quicktime trailers (also pulls down very eye-pleasing movie posters for each trailer)
• Future support being built for fanart for music
• More to come...

I think that more features will come over time. In the past few months there have been a handful of plugins that have add some new flare to SageMC. Most of these plugins are still in their infancy, and they are only going to get better.

I do think that the core of sage may be holding us developers back a little bit in the GUI department. If some of the things we are doing now could be added to the core it might make some of the "Eye Candy" a little more easy to implement, and a little less processor intensive. MeInMaui added the reflection code which I am using in iMovies, and Jaminben is using in Movie Info and TV Info, doing this outside of the core is a huge processor burden, and has limited how I can use reflections. There are some other things like this that could add some needed AWWW factor.

The other thing that is starting to concern me is the number of plugins that are available for SageMC is increasing greatly, and is getting hard to keep up with re adding them with each new version of SageMC. It would be nice to start adding some of the more mature plugins directly into SageMC in the future.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by jvl711

I do think that the core of sage may be holding us developers back a little bit in the GUI department. If some of the things we are doing now could be added to the core it might make some of the "Eye Candy" a little more easy to implement, and a little less processor intensive. MeInMaui added the reflection code which I am using in iMovies, and Jaminben is using in Movie Info and TV Info, doing this outside of the core is a huge processor burden, and has limited how I can use reflections. There are some other things like this that could add some needed AWWW factor.

Which things need to be added to the core which might be holding developers back in the UI dept? Would be good to list these types of things and submit to the devs at SageTV for consideration.

The other thing that is starting to concern me is the number of plugins that are available for SageMC is increasing greatly, and is getting hard to keep up with re adding them with each new version of SageMC. It would be nice to start adding some of the more mature plugins directly into SageMC in the future.

Don't be concerned by this. SageMC evolves over time. I'm sure certain plugins etc can be "built-in" to a future version of SageMC.

[pjpjpjpj]

I usually stay away from the endless "UI debate" threads, but I'll repeat my mantra here again... with regards to UI, "to each their own". Everyone has different tastes. If SageTV 7.0 came out tomorrow and the interface looked exactly like XBMC, people would still complain because it didn't look like {insert some other app here}.

The other consideration that the Sage company programmers surely are facing is that a complete redo of the UI could potentially render ALL plug-ins dead... meaning that every wonderful customization, from webserver to comskip to infopopup to Pandora to IMDB search to, dare I say it, SageMC, might go away (at least until they were re-written). Imagine the heartache that would cause.

And some people - me, for instance - would see WAF plummet to the point of possibly having to leave Sage, since "it's what she knows and she doesn't want to learn something else". And there is no debate that, for non-techie spouses who come from Tivo and have no interest in learning something new, the SageTV default UI is the best option out there. The functionality is nearly identical. Would she learn to use a new UI if it was all there was? Sure, eventually. But she wouldn't be happy about it.

[evilpenguin]

I think a lot have people have just reluctantly accepted Sage's "We gave you the tools, build your own UI if you don't like ours" attitude. But now that the user/developers have started to reach the edge of Studio's capabilities and still found it to be lacking in some areas, it's almost like we called their bluff.

Which things need to be added to the core which might be holding developers back in the UI dept? Would be good to list these types of things and submit to the devs at SageTV for consideration.

I don't think they need us to make a list of them as if the Sage Dev's were living in a cave on Mars. All they really need to do is fire up a copy of AppleTV/MediaPortal/MythTV/XBMC/Boxee, look at every feature and think: "Can we do this?" For a majority of the things the answer will be "Yes!", but there are also some very obvious "No!" too and those are the things Sage really needs to start thinking about.

[S_M_E]

Personally, I couldn't care less about the eye candy as long as the UI is functional. In general, more eye candy just means it uses more resources. I'd take performance and stability over pretty any day.

[stanger89]

First I'll say that I'm installing XBMC on my desktop, just to see what's what Mainly I'm curious because while it looks very pretty, from the screenshots it doesn't give me "warm feelings" that it would be useable long term....

Originally Posted by LehighBri

Although I've been a loyal user of SageTV for 3+ years now, I recently installed the latest Atlantis version of XBMC to check out what all of the rage is with that app and was nothing less than blown away by the slick user interface, the animations, the amazing skins, and the way it seamlessly and automatically grabs metadata and fanart.

I've noticed a variety of new features in SageMC (fanart) and new SageMC plugins (TV info screen and Movie info screen) that are pushing hard to mimic user interface and usability features within XBMC, but just aren't there yet.

Is there any way Sage can reuse some of XBMC's architecture and/or open source code to implement some of these amazing features directly in Sage? A neat XBMC feature off the top of my head is built-in support for a slew of "scrapers" that can pull down metadata and fanart for TV Shows and Movies, automatically! More info below:

XBMC's built in screen scraping for fanart
http://xbmc.org/wiki/?title=Set_Content_(Video_Library)

First things first, there is no way SageTV LLC could use screen scraping software to pull metadata from 3rd parties. That would definitely be violating the TOS of those services and it would open SageTV LLC up for litigation against them. Now they could license data from AMG or something (that would be sweet) but that would probably end up require a yearly subscription for us or something.

Any other thoughts/opinions/guidance here? Sage - I'm happy to help in any private/beta testing if you get to a point where you begin deploying new UI or usability features.

The only comment I'll add is if they do refresh the UI, I just hope they don't go to the opposite extreme of where they are now, ie form at the expense of function.

Update: Per Brent's suggestion, see below for an initial list of the neat features in XBMC I liked (note I only played with XBMC for 30 minutes so I'm sure there will be more)

• Built-in support for scrapers that automatically download metadata AND banner/fanart
• Built-in skins (especially mediastorm) are very eye-pleasing and have very high resolution support
• Built-in support for apple quicktime trailers (also pulls down very eye-pleasing movie posters for each trailer)
• Future support being built for fanart for music
• More to come...

A better "skinning" interface would be most welcome, STVs are just too much for most people's desires. QT trailer support would also be quite nice. As for the rest, that's rather tricky, that's all stuff you really can't do easilly in a commercial app. Heck, screen scraping is touchy in any app.

[LehighBri]

Originally Posted by S_M_E

Personally, I couldn't care less about the eye candy as long as the UI is functional. In general, more eye candy just means it uses more resources. I'd take performance and stability over pretty any day.

Totally understand, but a warmer user experience is never a bad thing. Heck even XBMC's default skin is nothing special but turning on other skins like Mediastorm really take the user experience to new levels. And I'm not saying I'd like a slower/less stable experience to make things look pretty, I'm really saying that user experience should be considered much more than it has in the past to take Sage to the next level. Whether it's implementing a new set of APIs (ala MCML in Vista MCE), expanding existing APIs (more UI support in Core sage) or including more built-in support for items which have been historically a slew of separate plugins (e.g. auto album lookup), anything to take the experience to the next level.

Heck, why not just make Sage a command prompt application I know this is an age old argument that neither side will ever win, but all I wanted to do was highlight some of the "oh wow" features in XBMC that perhaps Sage may be interested in taking a look at (not sure what the typical profile of a Lifehacker pollster is, but it's interesting to see the Lifehacker poll in the first post only had 3% votes for SageTV and 68% votes for XBMC/Boxee).