On Demand v. Client Server Model

[babgvant]

My current peer based network architecture was designed when I used VMC. Unless you use the severely limited extenders, there isn't a benefit to centralizing.

As I start to the plan the evolution of my environment, and rethink the function assigned to each box; the one thing I can't seem to get my head around is how those who completely separate the client/extender and server use On Demand (or do you)?

[Brent]

When you say "on demand" what do you mean?

Are you talking Netflix Watch-Now, Amazon Unbox, Cable VOD, all-of-the-above or something else?

I plan to use the Netflix "hack" to get Netflix and Pandora on my extenders, but to be honest I made a decision that the plus's I get with the extenders outweigh the disadvantage of not getting the online streaming.

And I still have some hope that we'll see more online content such as Netflix, Amazon Unbox, Pandora etc on the extenders at some point in the near future. Don't really know, but I think it will be a priority for the powers that be at SageTV...

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Brent

When you say "on demand" what do you mean?

Sorry, I meant the on demand feature provided by my cable co (Comcast).

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Brent

I plan to use the Netflix "hack" to get Netflix and Pandora on my extenders, but to be honest I made a decision that the plus's I get with the extenders outweigh the disadvantage of not getting the online streaming.

I wouldn't get extenders, just change the roles of the PCs that make up my environment. Extenders are appealing for ease-of-use, but personally I find that a small compensation for the loss of control (and they lock you into a specific solution).

[Djc208]

Well it's more than ease-of-use. They give better playback without all the tweaking and fuss that a client would require. They're smaller, quieter, use less power, and for the money are a cheaper way to handle H.264 playback.

You do give up flexability and are locked to Sage, but most don't see that as a downside. However there are still plenty that keep a client in specific locations for that flexability. Like in the living room to allow for BD playback and certain web enabled features.

As for on-demand features, you need to navigate the cable box to select that content, so no, it doesn't lend itself to being in a closet somewhere, but then you're basically using the device as a VCR at that point which is not really where the power of Sage lies.

Even then, you could set up your main client as the server for the other locations in the house so your cable box was readily available to control. Or you could use a client in the living room with a capture card to record from the cable box to the Sage server somewhere else. Again, the flexability is there to do what suits you best.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Djc208

Well it's more than ease-of-use. They give better playback without all the tweaking and fuss that a client would require.

If you mean PQ, I'm not sure that's true; modern PCs score very well on HQV tests.

I would include configuration as an aspect of use; so we can agree that configuring a CE device is easier.

Originally Posted by Djc208

They're smaller, quieter, use less power, and for the money are a cheaper way to handle H.264 playback.

The upfront cost is lower, but not by much. When you add up all the things you get for that extra cost (HDMI, 8 channel LPCM, flexibility, control, etc), at least for me it's a no-brainer.

Looking at long term cost however, it skews the other way quickly. Let's say I bought a PC two years ago, and wanted to upgrade it today. I could add everything that the current gen Sage extender does for far less than $200. More importantly, I can add those features as they become available on the market, and not when another entity decides it is time.

PCs don't have to be noisy, you can assemble a modern PC that makes an almost no noise. If you are building something that is going to be used as an extender, that is even more true provided that you select the right hardware.

For me, the most important feature is flexibly. With that, I don't have to accept someone else's idea of how something should work. For e.g. how do you make an extender wake up your server? Can it send WOL packets? Solving that on a PC is easy.

To be clear, I'm not saying using PC clients is the right answer for everyone. Your cost/benefit rational is unique to you. One of the great things about Sage is that we have the freedom to make choices that align best with our individual value judgments instead of being forced into some arch planners vision of how the market should work.

Originally Posted by Djc208

You do give up flexability and are locked to Sage, but most don't see that as a downside. However there are still plenty that keep a client in specific locations for that flexability. Like in the living room to allow for BD playback and certain web enabled features.

As for on-demand features, you need to navigate the cable box to select that content, so no, it doesn't lend itself to being in a closet somewhere, but then you're basically using the device as a VCR at that point which is not really where the power of Sage lies.

Even then, you could set up your main client as the server for the other locations in the house so your cable box was readily available to control. Or you could use a client in the living room with a capture card to record from the cable box to the Sage server somewhere else. Again, the flexability is there to do what suits you best.

I threw some images together on the train, so forgive the roughness.



this is my current environment. the blue pc is in my a/v cabinet and acts as the sage server. pushing those duties onto my file server would let me run lower spec hw, and reduce overall complexity.



this is what I'm thinking about doing; the blocking issue right now is pulling the STB out of the living room and sticking it in the office with the file server (which would become the sage server). Unfortunately, access to on demand is a requirement (WAF).

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by babgvant

If you mean PQ, I'm not sure that's true; modern PCs score very well on HQV tests.

We're not talking deinterlacing, we're talking things like robustness of playback, smoothness, lack of glitches, etc.

The upfront cost is lower, but not by much. When you add up all the things you get for that extra cost (HDMI, 8 channel LPCM, flexibility, control, etc), at least for me it's a no-brainer.

Not sure what you're getting at, a HD200 has HDMI, 8 channel LPCM, costs $200. You're looking at $500-700 to duplicate the hardware capabilities with a PC.

I'm still not sure what you mean by "control".

Looking at long term cost however, it skews the other way quickly. Let's say I bought a PC two years ago, and wanted to upgrade it today. I could add everything that the current gen Sage extender does for far less than $200.

It cost me $600 I think, the last time I upgraded my HTPC. It was capable of OTA HD, but not H.264. I had to replace everything but the case, PSU, HDD to get a machine capable of H.264.

this is what I'm thinking about doing; the blocking issue right now is pulling the STB out of the living room and sticking it in the office with the file server (which would become the sage server). Unfortunately, access to on demand is a requirement (WAF).

I'm pretty sure I've seen people have solutions for that.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by stanger89

We're not talking deinterlacing, we're talking things like robustness of playback, smoothness, lack of glitches, etc.

I don't have any issues with playback on any of my PCs.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Not sure what you're getting at, a HD200 has HDMI, 8 channel LPCM, costs $200. You're looking at $500-700 to duplicate the hardware capabilities with a PC.

I missed the HDMI port as part of the HD200 spec; upon further reading my understanding was that it didn't do 8 channel LPCM in it's current form; if I'm wrong then some crow's in order. One thing to note, is the HDMI port is 1.2, it cannot support next gen audio formats. While this is not a current PC feature either, when it becomes available for the PC it's easy to add, where adding it to the HD200 means replacing it.

Either way you're not looking at anywhere close to $500 for that capability. A $40 4350 does 8 channel LPCM over HDMI, anything with a PCIe 16x slot should work with no other upgrades to get flawless h.264, vc-1, etc. If LPCM isn't important a $20 3450 would do fine too.

Starting fresh, you can build a G45 based system for < $300. Using a "fancy" case would add to that of course. I built one of these recently for apx $220, but I reused a hard drive and case from a previous system.

Originally Posted by stanger89

I'm still not sure what you mean by "control".

PCs are dynamic, you control HW, SW, and config. If you want to change any part of that, you can. If you don't like how it works you can write (or buy) custom sw to change it. Can't do that with a fixed CE device; you're buying a static thing; any updates are subject to the planning and schedule of a third party who's interests may not align with yours.

Stepping back from the HD200 device a bit. Lets say I have a standard DVD player, pop a DVD in and on some discs I'm forced to watch previews and whatever other garbage they want me to consume. Using a DVD drive in a PC with AnyDVD, I don't have to watch that crap; which = control.

Flexibility isn't free; PCs are harder to configure and maintain. For me, the added capability is worth the extra pain; that may not be true for you. I have had several conversations with current VMC users who would evaluate Sage, but for their prior extender (360, etc) or OCUR purchases that effectively tie them to a specific solution. Walking away from that expenditure is hard; if they used PCs (as I did); it was $30.

Also important, it's not a strict apples to apples; PCs can do more than a HD200 - so they cost more.

Originally Posted by stanger89

I'm pretty sure I've seen people have solutions for that.

Hope so...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by babgvant

I don't have any issues with playback on any of my PCs.

I used to not think I did too. But then I got an HD100 (mainly out of curiosity, and for my upstairs TV), and going back to my HTPC has gotten progressively harder and harder.

I missed the HDMI port as part of the HD200 spec; upon further reading my understanding was that it didn't do 8 channel LPCM in it's current form; if I'm wrong then some crow's in order.

I think it supports it now (though content with multichannel PCM is hard to come by).

One thing to note, is the HDMI port is 1.2, it cannot support next gen audio formats.

We must be very carefull with statements like this. With HDMI 1.2 it can't support HBR bitstreaming, however that is not the same as saying it can't support "HD audio". It can support HD audio so long as it's decoded to LPCM (I should say it is capable, though yes, it does not support it yet).

While this is not a current PC feature either, when it becomes available for the PC it's easy to add, where adding it to the HD200 means replacing it.

HDMI 1.2 is sufficient for everything in the Blu-ray, Cable, ATSC, and Satellite specs. It's a common misconception that HDMI 1.3 is "required" to get HD audio. Blu-ray was concieved and designed around HDMI 1.2 capabilities, not HDMI 1.3.

Either way you're not looking at anywhere close to $500 for that capability. A $40 4350 does 8 channel LPCM over HDMI, anything with a PCIe 16x slot should work with no other upgrades to get flawless h.264, vc-1, etc. If LPCM isn't important a $20 3450 would do fine too.

But you need probably $400 in hardware/software to support that $40 video card (case, PSU, motherboard, ram, HDD, Windows license, H.264 w/ DXVA decoder license).

The other thing to consider is your really need a good video card (better than a 4350) in the PC, because you need the PC to do very good HD deinterlacing.

Starting fresh, you can build a G45 based system for < $300. Using a "fancy" case would add to that of course. I built one of these recently for apx $220, but I reused a hard drive and case from a previous system.

Don't forget $100+ for the Windows license, and another $90 for PowerDVD (or something else) to get decoders that take advantage of that hardware.

PCs are dynamic, you control HW, SW, and config. If you want to change any part of that, you can. If you don't like how it works you can write (or buy) custom sw to change it. Can't do that with a fixed CE device; you're buying a static thing; any updates are subject to the planning and schedule of a third party who's interests may not align with yours.

The interface of the HD200 is 100% user customizeable, it supports custom resolutions, any remote, the only things that are really fixed on the HD200 is it's decoding capabilities.

But, FWIW, I was wondering if you meant control in the configuration sense, or in the input (remote) sense.

Stepping back from the HD200 device a bit. Lets say I have a standard DVD player, pop a DVD in and on some discs I'm forced to watch previews and whatever other garbage they want me to consume. Using a DVD drive in a PC with AnyDVD, I don't have to watch that crap; which = control.

I can certainly sympathize.

Flexibility isn't free; PCs are harder to configure and maintain. For me, the added capability is worth the extra pain; that may not be true for you. I have had several conversations with current VMC users who would evaluate Sage, but for their prior extender (360, etc) or OCUR purchases that effectively tie them to a specific solution. Walking away from that expenditure is hard; if they used PCs (as I did); it was $30.

Also important, it's not a strict apples to apples; PCs can do more than a HD200 - so they cost more.

I've got both, I've got a 780G HTPC sitting on the shelf below my HD200. For me the proof is in the pudding as they say. I the HD200 is my go-to device, not the HTPC.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I think it supports it now (though content with multichannel PCM is hard to come by).

Casino Royale

Originally Posted by stanger89

We must be very carefull with statements like this. With HDMI 1.2 it can't support HBR bitstreaming, however that is not the same as saying it can't support "HD audio". It can support HD audio so long as it's decoded to LPCM (I should say it is capable, though yes, it does not support it yet).

I did say next gen audio formats, I wouldn't include LPCM (raw audio) in that ilk.

Originally Posted by stanger89

HDMI 1.2 is sufficient for everything in the Blu-ray, Cable, ATSC, and Satellite specs. It's a common misconception that HDMI 1.3 is "required" to get HD audio. Blu-ray was concieved and designed around HDMI 1.2 capabilities, not HDMI 1.3.

If the interface doesn't support the format, the player will need to decode (which it doesn't) or be changed prior to, playback. While changing the format prior to playback isn't a huge issue, it does reduce the "ease-of-use" argument. Current gen PC players can decode during playback and output LPCM. More importantly, they can do this w/o having to rip the disc first.

Originally Posted by stanger89

But you need probably $400 in hardware/software to support that $40 video card (case, PSU, motherboard, ram, HDD, Windows license, H.264 w/ DXVA decoder license).

That was meant as a drop-in-part for a existing system (where all that other stuff was sorted and paid for). Unless you have a AGP system, you should be able to literally drop one in and get full HWA, and excellent PQ.

Originally Posted by stanger89

The other thing to consider is your really need a good video card (better than a 4350) in the PC, because you need the PC to do very good HD deinterlacing.

My understanding is that the 4350 has plenty of power for HD deinterlacing (only an issue for interlaced content though, all of the HD-DVD and BR content I've seen is progressive). If not, step up to the 4550 (and get full HWA for two h.264 streams) for an additional $10-20.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Don't forget $100+ for the Windows license, and another $90 for PowerDVD (or something else) to get decoders that take advantage of that hardware.

If you bought a HD PVR, or a BR drive all the decoders are accounted for. If you don't have either, where is the content coming from?

Vista premium will cost $100; and includes a MPEG2/DVD A/V decoder.

Originally Posted by stanger89

The interface of the HD200 is 100% user customizeable, it supports custom resolutions, any remote, the only things that are really fixed on the HD200 is it's decoding capabilities.

While the interface is customizable, the functionality is not, and you are tied to Sage's release schedule.

There are several things that I don't like or see as gaps in the way Sage works in my environment (although at least one of them is because I use a PC ). As a sw developer I can fix/change that, because I own the platform that it uses. As long as we share, everyone benefits...

Originally Posted by stanger89

I've got both, I've got a 780G HTPC sitting on the shelf below my HD200. For me the proof is in the pudding as they say. I the HD200 is my go-to device, not the HTPC.

Not trying to say that an extender isn't a valid choice, just that it's not given my preferences.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by babgvant

I did say next gen audio formats, I wouldn't include LPCM (raw audio) in that ilk.

But the important distinction is you don't need to transport TrueHD or DTS-HD MA to the SSP in bitstream form to "get" them, transporting them as decoded PCM is 100% identical.

My understanding is that the 4350 has plenty of power for HD deinterlacing (only an issue for interlaced content though, all of the HD-DVD and BR content I've seen is progressive). If not, step up to the 4550 (and get full HWA for two h.264 streams) for an additional $10-20.

From what I've heard the 4550 is sort of on the edge regarding deinterlacing. As for it being important or not, asside from BD/HD DVD, everything else is pretty much 1080i or 480i. Deinterlacing is very important.

If you bought a HD PVR, or a BR drive all the decoders are accounted for. If you don't have either, where is the content coming from?

But it's not, I had to spend $90 on top of the cost of my BD drive to get a version of PowerDVD that supported TrueHD and DTS-HD MA.

Vista premium will cost $100; and includes a MPEG2/DVD A/V decoder.

But not H.264.

Not trying to say that an extender isn't a valid choice, just that it's not given my preferences.

Agreed, my only points are that PCs aren't as cheap as you make it sound, since you've already got the PCs, the investment in upgrades is "trivial", but you've got a significant investment in hardware already. Also, extenders aren't nearly as limiting as you think they are.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by stanger89

But the important distinction is you don't need to transport TrueHD or DTS-HD MA to the SSP in bitstream form to "get" them, transporting them as decoded PCM is 100% identical.

Agreed, TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are just PCM waiting to be freed

I have had frustrating conversations w/ some "purists" who irrationally want to do the decode in their receiver (instead of the PC) though...

Originally Posted by stanger89

From what I've heard the 4550 is sort of on the edge regarding deinterlacing. As for it being important or not, asside from BD/HD DVD, everything else is pretty much 1080i or 480i. Deinterlacing is very important.

Not in Chicago, there's a good mix of 720p and 1080i ATSC (the channels I record tend to be 720p).

If using a HD-PVR, you can set your cable box (I don't do this btw) to a fixed format (720p for e.g.) as a workaround if your card doesn't handle DI nicely.

Originally Posted by stanger89

But it's not, I had to spend $90 on top of the cost of my BD drive to get a version of PowerDVD that supported TrueHD and DTS-HD MA.

hmm, must be drive specific then...

Originally Posted by stanger89

Agreed, my only points are that PCs aren't as cheap as you make it sound, since you've already got the PCs, the investment in upgrades is "trivial", but you've got a significant investment in hardware already. Also, extenders aren't nearly as limiting as you think they are.

DG45ID = $100
E5200 = $80
PSU = $30 (or less)
2GB RAM = $20 (DG45ID is very picky about RAM )
Vista = $100
HD = $40 (or less, depending on your tolerance for AR)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
$370

no case, but that's anywhere from $15-$500; personally I'd opt for a one of the nMedia (or similar) with a VFD & IR receiver built in for ~$100.

with this config as long as your case isn't in a cabinet and has good venting, you need almost no active cooling (replace the stock HSF with a mini ninja ($15) to go passive on the CPU).

not $200, but not $700 either... for the extra $ you've got something that does much, much more than a HD200.

[SWKerr]

I suspect we are about a generation away from a PC that will run quite and output HD for only $200. Right now you are looking at $300 for a reasonably quite HTPC and that assumes you have licensed software already and don’t need a wireless keyboard and remote. Even a $300 you will be getting some level of ambient noise.

If you could take the uncertainty of the online future out of the equation then the extender would be a no brainier. Personally I find I use the online stuff a lot more than I thought I would. It is still less than 10% of my viewing but I would not want to go without it but it would not necessarily have to be on every TV.

The extender is the most cost effective and elegant solution. I would still want to have a Sage Server\Client PC on my main HDTV just for the online content but even that would change if you could get the online content on the extender. The fact that the extender can attach to Playon is an interesting development.

For me Netflix is the new VOD. I expect them to adopt the Blockbuster model of paying for new releases at some point as well but I personally can just wait for the disk to arrive if it would cost me more than I pay today.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Agreed, TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are just PCM waiting to be freed

I have had frustrating conversations w/ some "purists" who irrationally want to do the decode in their receiver (instead of the PC) though...

I know the feeling.

Not in Chicago, there's a good mix of 720p and 1080i ATSC (the channels I record tend to be 720p).

I think FOX is the only 720p station that I record anything on.

If using a HD-PVR, you can set your cable box (I don't do this btw) to a fixed format (720p for e.g.) as a workaround if your card doesn't handle DI nicely.

I'd rather retain the full resolution personally.

hmm, must be drive specific then...

The bundled software does vary drive to drive. My lite-on came with PowerDVD 7.3 Blu-ray, which didn't support multichannel decoding of "HD" audio codecs.

DG45ID = $100
E5200 = $80
PSU = $30 (or less)
2GB RAM = $20 (DG45ID is very picky about RAM )
Vista = $100
HD = $40 (or less, depending on your tolerance for AR)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
$370

no case, but that's anywhere from $15-$500; personally I'd opt for a one of the nMedia (or similar) with a VFD & IR receiver built in for ~$100.

with this config as long as your case isn't in a cabinet and has good venting, you need almost no active cooling (replace the stock HSF with a mini ninja ($15) to go passive on the CPU).

not $200, but not $700 either... for the extra $ you've got something that does much, much more than a HD200.

Yeah, right around $500 once you consider the case and remaining software.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by SWKerr

For me Netflix is the new VOD. I expect them to adopt the Blockbuster model of paying for new releases at some point as well but I personally can just wait for the disk to arrive if it would cost me more than I pay today.

Until they have decent audio, I don't see this replacing discs at least for movies.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I'd rather retain the full resolution personally.

Ditto, but it's still an option for those who have issues.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Yeah, right around $500 once you consider the case and remaining software.

But many of those costs become sunk the next go round; for sure the case and PSU, but sometimes also the OS, RAM & HD depending frequency; where each upgrade of a CE device you have to buy it all over again. When you account for multiple upgrade cycles, cost is lower.

[Brent]

I love this conversation - two guys who are very knowledgeable both with great points.

I understand Babgvant's points. I want more flexibility ongoing and future unreadability. Shoot, that's why I chose to go into HTPCs in the first place. When I first was given the chance to review the HD100 I had only just begun dabbling with SageTV. I though - I'll never use more than one extender in my setup for the reasons Babgvant pointed out above.

But, what I found out is not only do you not give up that much with the extenders, you gain some things that are very important in many (not all) people's home TV setups:

• Price is lower for the extenders (in nearly all scenarios unless you're crazy enough to quit using your HD100 or whatever the current model of extender is just because a new shiny model comes along and you don't have the sense to sell your old one in that situation)
• Extenders are silent without paying any more money or spending any more time to get them that way
• Extenders are small.
• Video Output of the extenders just work. And for me it looks great too
• Its easier to set up and easier to maintain. Firmware updates are the only maintenance required.

Of course as you say, your are giving up a few things. I really think the main things are "Neflix Watch-Now Plugin, Pandora Plugin, Online Radio Plugin, prevention of owning a doorstop if you switch away from SageTV (just sell it in that case though) etc.
For me it's worth it but as you say, that's one of the great things about SageTV - it's flexible enough to do whatever you need it to on whatever OS and Hardware you want it to.

Regarding your initial question (sorry for taking this topic so far off course) - I think there was a plugin under development that would send IR signals as a virtual remote control for controling on-demand and other related funcitons. Can't remember where I saw that, but wouldn't that work for what you're wanting?

[gplasky]

babgvant


Here is what you may be looking for:

On screen remote


Gerry

[Brent]

Originally Posted by gplasky

babgvant


Here is what you may be looking for:

On screen remote


Gerry

That's what I was referring to - just couldn't find it. I think its what Babgvant needs. I meant to try it out on my setup and never got around to it - I'll have to put that back on my to-do list.

[HelenWeathers]

I've been following this thread off and on all day my self.

I began my journey 4 years ago with Beyond TV. I had a decent computer with a decent P4 HT cpu, a decent graphics card, a decent tuner (Hauppauge 250) and got a decent picture out of it.

I was of the same opinion as babgvant, PCs are better because you can upgrade components as the technology improves. It was like insurance against future obsolescence.

I now am almost totally in the mindset of stranger89. The HD200 gives a great picture with really good audio choices. The audio isn't 100% there yet but is very close.

For the ease of use, the size, the quietness of a CE device, the HD200 sure brings a lot to the table. I can live with the HD200 for a long time to come.

My friend was over last night and noticed my new little black box. He is not yet a SageTV user. He will be buying one of the HD200s just for it's abilities to handle his videos and music on his local network. He watches hulu a lot too. His remark was: "I can get rid of that PC in my bedroom now. This is great!"

Today he asked if there was a package deal with SageTV. I said yes. So maybe this little black box will bring some new users to SageTV as a result of what the HD200 can do.

EDIT: The only reason I still have a PC in my living room is for the Blu-ray drive. Hmmm. STVTBDHD200 anyone?