Questions about SageTV from a BeyondTV (possibly former) user

[APillowOfClouds]

Hi,

I am considering going to SageTV from BeyondTV and will be testing it shortly. I have a couple of questions if anyone has time to answer them:

Currently, I am tuning a Scientific American tuner box (I think it's a 4200) using a USB-UIRT. Is anyone doing this or something similar via Sage? I am on the Long Island, NY Cablevision system.

Is there anyone here who used to use BeyondTV? What's better or worse about Sage? (Other than that they are still actively developing consumer products instead of letting them stall)

BeyondTV will run it's server well on a single core 3 GHz or so system - how is Sage with that kind of spec?

Can I run my Sage server on Linux but use Windows clients?

How easy is the Linux server set up for someone who is a programmer but only slightly familiar with Linux/Unix?

TIA

Rob

[Brent]

Originally Posted by APillowOfClouds

Hi,

I am considering going to SageTV from BeyondTV and will be testing it shortly. I have a couple of questions if anyone has time to answer them:

Welcome Rob! There are a ton of former BeyondTV users (myself included) so you're in good company here.

Currently, I am tuning a Scientific American tuner box (I think it's a 4200) using a USB-UIRT. Is anyone doing this or something similar via Sage? I am on the Long Island, NY Cablevision system.

Yes, lots of us are using the USB-UIRT to blast channel changes on different cable boxes. I have an Scientific Atlanta Explorer 4250HDC which I use a USB-UIRT for channel changes. SageTV supports the USB-UIRT out of the box so you're good there.

Is there anyone here who used to use BeyondTV? What's better or worse about Sage? (Other than that they are still actively developing consumer products instead of letting them stall)

Let me start with the things I think you'll have a tiny bit of difficulty with with a switch from BTV:

• BTV is simple and therefore a little easier to get used to and definitely easier to set up. This is also a disadvantage for BTV because the reason BTV is easier to get set up is there isn't that much in the way of add-ons, configurability, customization etc available to it.
• BTV uses escape to exit a screen. SageTV uses <Alt><Left Arrow> to exit a screen. This one bugs a bunch of people coming from BTV as its one of those things you just do without even thinking about it. Just know this - You can remap any key to do anything - its one of those cusomization things you'll see in SageTV.
• The metadata for shows in SageTV is not embedded in the video file itself as it is with BTV. Instead it goes into a central wiz.bin file. This means it is a little more difficult to move recorded tv shows in SageTV compared to BTV. Not a dealbreaker by any means and something you get used to, but different for sure.
• Commercial skipping isn't built in - you have to install it yourself. This is bad because it's more difficult, but good because it gives you options and gives you ways to tweak your setup to make the commercial detection as good as possible. For instance HD-PVR files can be detected with comskip right now in SageTV where it can't in BTV's smartskip very well.
• Webadmin isn't built in. See the bullet point above. But SageTV's webadmin is pretty awesome and lets you do a lot more then you can with BTVs.
• Settings in SageTV are all on the interface - not in webadmin. This may take some getting used to for a BTV user, but I actually like it better the SageTV way now.

I think those are the main negatives. Now for a few of the positives:

• Much larger usergroup base. Just compare the number of forum members posting at any given time compared to SS. More help, more ideas, more user developed add-ons, themes and plugins = better experience.
• SageTV updated VERY often. You'll see betas with new features on a very regular basis.
• SageTV has one focus - consumer HTPC. This speaks volumes in my opinion.
• Extenders - the HD100 and now HD200 are THE BEST WAY to get content to your TV. You can still use a HTPC client (like BTV Link) of course, but I have to say, I'm moving towards all extenders in my home because it means only messing with one PC (the server) with all the settings, upgrades etc; no worrying about codecs, small & silent, works for every video/audio file I use including the HD-PVR, cheaper solution. It just works.
• Media Functions - want more then just TV/PVR? SageTV offers, DVD, Movie/Video, Music, Photos, Online Video, Pandora Radio, Netflix and many other functions beyond TV (did I just say BeyondTV?)
• Ahead of the curve - because of their focus, SageTV has been on the forefront of HD-PVR support, QAM tuner support, extenders, online video and many other examples compared to the competition.

I beta test for BTV and SageTV and write about both. I use SageTV as my main HTPC setup and my family is very happy with that decision.

My advice to you is this. Leave your BTV setup as is, but shut it down for testing SageTV, try out SageTV as much as you can during the trial and post as many questions on these forums as you have - there are many of us to help you out. I think in the end you'll know which is the right decision.

Give this thread a read - it has a lot of suggestions on getting SageTV set up and transitioning from BeyondTV

You might also be interested in this article on importing your BTV shows into SageTV

BeyondTV will run it's server well on a single core 3 GHz or so system - how is Sage with that kind of spec?

Should be about the same in SageTV as it is for BeyondTV. A single-core 3GHz system should work fine UNLESS you're doing any playback of HD-PVR (h.264) files.

Can I run my Sage server on Linux but use Windows clients?

Yes

How easy is the Linux server set up for someone who is a programmer but only slightly familiar with Linux/Unix?

I'll have to leave that question to the Linux users - I'm Windows only at the moment.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by Brent

Webadmin isn't built in.

Remote admin is built in; it just isn't web-based. The Placeshifter client can be carried on a USB stick and gives full access to all server admin and configuration functions from anywhere on the Internet. You do need a Placeshifter license to use it, but to imply that remote admin is available only through third-party add-ons is not accurate.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Remote admin is built in; it just isn't web-based. The Placeshifter client can be carried on a USB stick and gives full access to all server admin and configuration functions from anywhere on the Internet. You do need a Placeshifter license to use it, but to imply that remote admin is available only through third-party add-ons is not accurate.

True enough Greg. In my opinion, still a disadvantage of SageTV compared to BeyondTV though its not a big deal to me anymore since I paid for a placeshifter license.

[mayamaniac]

Considering that nielm's webadmin plugin has an installer now, I think it isn't much of a disadvantage since it takes like a minute to do. It's one of the easiest add-on to setup, yet the most powerful one.

APillowOfClouds, just do it. You'll be glad you did. I did the switch years ago, about the same time BTV Link came out (the same time everything went south for SS), and I couldn't be happier. You are not alone, many BTV users switched over to SageTV over the years. I would switch for the HD extenders alone, nevermind the integration.

[APillowOfClouds]

Thanks for all the info, I am looking forward to trying Sage - my buddy is coming over on Thurs night to help me set up a test rig. I like the media extender boxes, I may switch to those eventually, definitely less to manage esp. since we have frequent power blinks here due to a lot of trees and every time they last long enough for the UPS's to die I have to run around making sure everything came back up properly.

As far as the web admin, I prefer to do everything in an app actually, so although I will probably load the web admin add-on that was mentioned, if I can do it all through one program I prefer that. One of the things that annoys me about BTV actually is that if I want to set up a recording, add a video folder or put in a keyword search, I have to do those in 3 separate places - BTV main app, BTV web admin and snapstream.net.

The community is the main reason I want to switch - when I started with BTV back in '04 it was cutting edge and was actively being improved. Now unfortunately it seems to be focused only on corporate customers and isn't being improved much, let along debugged.

What's nice is that my original decision to go to a HTPC solution from my TiVo back in '03 is paying off - I may need to buy new software but ALL of my hardware will work just fine. A couple of reformats and installs and I should be good to go.

BTW thank u for the excellent summary of the major differences, that will help a lot!

[dadof4]

I'm a former BTV user also. It took a while to get SageTV set up the way I wanted it but it has a lot of features BTV is lacking.

The main difference and the reason I switched:

Extenders!

[btrcp2000]

dadof4 is right on. i left btv when I tested sage and discovered that the mediamvps worked as soon as you turned them on. never could get them to work right with btv, but when i was there i think they were a community created add-on. now the hd extenders really bring the point home.

[kriilin]

Extenders is the main reason I'm switching to Sage. I've been BeyondTV since V 3.7. I want to get rid of the VGA cable to my projector, and the HD extender is the same price as a nice HTPC case (which I currently don't have), not to mention the hw upgrades I would have needed to do.

Oh yeah, I now can stream my flac files and DVD rips in one nice package

[bigbill]

I switched over during October. It was fairly painful with respect to moving over my BTV shows, if you don't want to move shows over it would be reletively simple to move. Brent was right about the Esc button. The first thing want to do after you bring it up is to configure the Esc button you use now to be the "back" button so I works very similar. Back seems to work everywhere, but the left arrow only works most places, but not all, like when you are in the program guide.
The extenders are awsum, and really the only way to go. I moved my three Tuners to one WHS server and stuck it out in the garage and just use extenders now to watch tv. They are worth their weight in gold! And there is no fan or other moving parts, uses almost no power and it just works! -Bill

[Brent]

Originally Posted by bigbill

Brent was right about the Esc button. The first thing want to do after you bring it up is to configure the Esc button you use now to be the "back" button so I works very similar. Back seems to work everywhere, but the left arrow only works most places, but not all, like when you are in the program guide.

Remember, by default, <Alt><Left> in SageTV functions like ESC does in BTV. As Bill says, you can remap the esc button in SageTV to do the same thing by mapping it to the "back" function

[Mayhem70]

Well this thread answered my question on webadmin. As a current BTV user, I have a couple more that I haven't found answers for.

Webadmin - I get you need to install that. Can it generate RSS feeds?

Transcoding - sounds like a plugin would be installed and configured. While automatic would be nice, I prefer the batch method. Atleast for me, I'm used to pulling up a bunch of recordings in the webadmin and choosing a transcoding profile. Just wondering more about the experience.

Mobile - I get that there is a client app. Is there anything on the mobile side for Sage? My current method is Orb, or transcode to a h.264 and sync as a podcast.

Those are atleast the features from BTV that are most important to me. If anyone is wondering, I love BTV...but I would rather have a nice small extender and hulu integration...and it doesn't look like they will go that route.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Mayhem70

Webadmin - I get you need to install that. Can it generate RSS feeds?

Yes, there's a RSS feed for about anything you would want. I have a writeup on the webadmin here that has some screen-shots showing a few of the RSS feeds.

Transcoding - sounds like a plugin would be installed and configured. While automatic would be nice, I prefer the batch method. Atleast for me, I'm used to pulling up a bunch of recordings in the webadmin and choosing a transcoding profile. Just wondering more about the experience.

Not quite the same as in BTV for sure, but transcoding is built-in. You can do it from the SageTV UI or from the web admin add-on. There's also a more powerful add-on for SageMC (add-on UI) that lets you transcode DVDs and other files from the UI.

Mobile - I get that there is a client app. Is there anything on the mobile side for Sage? My current method is Orb, or transcode to a h.264 and sync as a podcast.

there's not a good way to placeshift to your mobile device as it is right now. Orb or Sling is your best bet for that although I use the SageTV Placeshifter a lot with a laptop and PC.

You'll be just as happy with SageTV as you were with BTV. I was a huge fan of BTV and finally realized that they were not going to provide what I wanted and needed in a HTPC program. Moving to SageTV was a great move for me - and with the extenders I've never been happier with a HTPC program.

[Mayhem70]

Does the web admin allow you create security roles and restrict access?

Thanks Brent, I've been reading back posts on your blog to get myself up to speed. I'm sure I'll have a couple more pre-transition questions too.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Mayhem70

Does the web admin allow you create security roles and restrict access?

If you're talking about different access levels for different logins on the web admin there is nothing like that available that I know of at least.

[Mayhem70]

I'm kinda curious if I could run BTV and SageTV at the same time, of course not using the same tuners. I was thinking of decommisioning the HDHR from my BTV first. Then setup SageTV on the same machine and get both working independently. Then as I port all my recordings and schedules and whatnot, I could eventually decommision the others and put them into SageTV for use.

I know overkill, but I have that WAF to think about.

[Brent]

I'm not positive on this, but I think you should only run one of the two at any given time. The two might fight over the same resources if both are running simultaneously.

When I first switched I did this by running BTV most of the time, then during off-times such as the weekend, tinkered with setting up SageTV and then making sure everything worked just right before using SageTV for critical (read: the wifes recordings) times. I took a good two weeks to make sure everything was working well before making the entire switch. Each time I switched between the two I would totally shut down one and start up the other.

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by Brent;320288[*

BTV uses escape to exit a screen. SageTV uses <Alt><Left Arrow> to exit a screen. This one bugs a bunch of people coming from BTV

That one jumped right out at me - and I wasn't even coming from BTV. Totally non-intuitive. Before I dug in and realized what a quality product SageTV was my reaction was "WTF???!!!!".

It's kind of like why everybody wears suits at one of the financial instutions where I do development work: people from outside are walking around making involuntary unconcious judgments about our work. But, since they have no idea what we're doing, they judge us on how we look.

Same with Sage. A clueless noob like me is impressed/turned off by the most superficial things. The install was smooth as butter. That made a very strong positive impression. The keyboard thing and the the intervening choice(s) between wanting to open/delete something and actually having it open or be deleted made a negative impression.

Maybe I'm going beyond my place in saying this... but I'd give Sage the ability (which it might have already...) to use different named key maps and ship it with a key map named something like "Windows-Centric" in which Esc gets one out of something, DoubleClick just opens something with no intervening menu, BackSpace retreats to the prior menu in the heirarchy, Delete issues a confirmation prompt and then deletes something.... and so-forth.

OTOH, my experience with the product is so far limited to keyboard control and maybe using it with a remote will totally exonerate the UI.

[Opus4]

You may not have noticed, but Alt+LeftArrow is the same as Back in a browser, or at least Internet Explorer. Alt+RightArrow is Forward, which SageTV also links to the Forward command. So, this shouldn't seem so far out of place.

More intuitive to you might be Left to go to the parent menu from most menus (Program Guide being one of the exceptions). You can actually type text on some screens, so Backspace clears the last-entered text instead of exiting the menu.

Escape doesn't seem intuitive to me to exit a menu... exit a pop-up dialog, yes, which is what it does do. And, since Escape uses the Options command as its method of closing a dialog, using it when no dialog is open also issues the Options command, which will open the options dialog for the menu, if there is one.

All the default keystrokes are listed as part of the full list of possible commands near the end of chapter 5 of the PDF manual. They are also listed next to each command name in Detailed Setup in the SageTV UI.

- Andy

[Brent]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

Same with Sage. A clueless noob like me is impressed/turned off by the most superficial things. The install was smooth as butter. That made a very strong positive impression. The keyboard thing and the the intervening choice(s) between wanting to open/delete something and actually having it open or be deleted made a negative impression.

Maybe I'm going beyond my place in saying this... but I'd give Sage the ability (which it might have already...) to use different named key maps and ship it with a key map named something like "Windows-Centric" in which Esc gets one out of something, DoubleClick just opens something with no intervening menu, BackSpace retreats to the prior menu in the heirarchy, Delete issues a co

As Andy said above, you can re-map the keys to your hearts desire so if you don't like the way the key mapping work you can change them.

I'll tell you what I've discovered. When I first was using SageTV, I was a full-time, hard-core BeyondTV user. At that time I had a terrible time with the escape key veresus Alt>Left for going back one menu item. But now after being used to SageTV I get just as frustrated when I use BTV (I beta test and mess with BTV on occasion) and those keys aren't mapped the same way as I'm now used to.

Bottom line, it's not about what makes sense, it's about what you're used to. With the remote it won't matter since you'll have the same buttons mapped as you did with BTV. With the keyboard you either learn the new way or re-map the keys to the way you prefer.