Newbie Q --> Running SageTV

[Crashless]

Let me begin by saying I think I've gone cross-eyed.

Originally posted by Cabalsan
The short version of the above; I want SageTV on all the time with an easy way to delete garbage shows and it NOT record over shows I havent seen yet! Period.

I guess the onus is on me for only having an 80Gb hard drive in the HTPC. It fills up sooo fast. And for those wondering, I can't get a new bigger hdrive yet (broke).<snip>I think the deletion of garbage <snip> by use of a multiple selection option would solve my problems. <snip>If I leave SageTV running all night into the next day (11pm - 6pm) thats 19HRS of programming to delete. Thats almost 40GB of GARBAGE. The deal is, I don't want it asleep, because I want it awake to record a program at 5pm the next day.

Setting shows to Fav to not lose the shows I recorded is NOT an option. I watch shows that are not favorites, but are only midly interesting (say I Love the 80's Strikes back - fun show, but not a Fav).

My first comment is that with this small of HD, you have to consider a lower quality. It sucks, but that's it. You can have more programing, or higher quality, not both.

Second, turn off intelligent recording or start using that don't like button. When I got my sage box running, it recorded every sitcom on television b/c I had "friends' as a fav. After 2 days I had it down to a manageable level. Don't be afraid to tell sage you don't like something, you have to. Deleting w/o telling it you hate it won't accomplish anything.

Thirdly, and not to be directed at Cabalsan's problem, I leave my sage box awake all day every day. I don't put it to sleep, I just hit menu, and leave it on the main menu before I turn off my TV. Now, I mainly watch recorded programs, but when I have watched live tv before shutdown, I haven't run into problems of hundreds of hours of TV I didn't want. I've used my hate button a lot, and my box is not trying to record everything on TV. A quick glance at my upcoming recordings shows a lot of holes where it's just sitting there.

Granted, I've put a lot of thought and work into making my box very stable, and more importantly - quiet. So having it running all day, every day isn't a big deal. Things I don't like, I tell it so, and let it delete it on it's own. I have multiple partitions setup so that I have space quarentined for my OS, programs, MP3s, and other files. I let Sage deal with the rest and pretend that space doesn't exist on my system. If i want to save something I send it to the library, otherwise I see no reason to take active measures to deal with HD space. I have some set aside for rainy days where I want to master some stuff to DIVX, KINOMA, or DVD for whatever, and plenty of space for future MP3s. Why should I care what Sage does with it's time, that's why I have it, so I don't have to think about watching TV. It's all about 'idiot-proofing' the box.

All I actively do is make sure I don't get racy programs recording immediately before my everyday programs. Wouldn't want 2 or 3 seconds of nakedness before friends...

[Llamas]

I also make sure that I leave my clients and server at the menu. This is a little bit of a hassle, and I feel a little bit foolish asking my wife do anything special as a requirement for using the software. We're transitioning from DirecTivos where you don't have to do anything but use the box.

When I first set things up, and left it on live TV, it did a good job of gobbling up hard drive space. I think what some of us want is a simple limit to this behavior on Sage's part. Despite different view points on how to configure and use the software, I don't think I've seen anyone post that they want Sage to record everything if someone turns the TV off on live TV, and no one notices until the next day.

--Mike

[msm]

ooops i was a page behind

[falchulk]

Llamas, a PVR's function should be to record scheduled shows and find other shows you might like. My system does that without a hitch and does so without recording constant live tv. Thats the PVR portion I spoke of. You are correct in the additonal features being HTPC and not PVR related. I was just making those comments in response to the point "no one should know that the PVR is on a PC. 99% of people would not know that I have a PC in my family room.

[salsbst]

Guys, can't you just hook that power button on your remote to the Sleep command? When you're done watching TV, hit the power button.

I'm still confused about how this could be a problem.

[Llamas]

I was thinking about this, yesterday, and if I can find the discrete codes for on-off for my TVs (I have the codes for my projector, already), and if I have learning remotes for all my sets, I could teach Sage that the code for TV off is sleep, and TV on is full screen (or something that would wake it up).

Notice the ifs, though? It's not that we can't find ways around it, but should we have to? The first obstacle here would be the discrete codes. I'm an enthusiast, I can find those codes at remotecentral.com, or something. Then there are learning remotes. OK, in my case, I think I actually have enough learning remotes around to cover this. My point here is that the more work you make it to get Sage to behave properly, the more you limit the market for the product. The CE PVR solutions are popular because all you have to do is hook them up, and start using the remote. Falchulk correctly pointed out that the PC solutions give you extra flexibility for the extra work, but if it's enough extra work, it won't be worth it most people.

Then after the steps above, what happens when I reach over and hit the power button on the TV (not the remote) in the kitchen?

The reason that I gripe about the neverending recording of live TV if you leave it on is that by the "simple" (simple because I'm not writing the code) measure of limiting the number of hours of live TV programs kept by the system, or going to a live TV buffer (versus saving live TV as discrete shows), the issue would be solved. This would not change the behavior of the system for people that put the application to sleep when they are not using, and protect those that do not, or occasionaly forget.

Falchulk, sorry, I wasn't so much trying to correct your definition as point out that not all of us are using the extra features of the PC on all of our PVR clients. Since you want the PVR features (pause, rewind, etc.) when watching live TV, it needs to be recording. This is why the CE PVRs are always recording, and this is why Sage is always recording when you are watching live TV. What I am looking for is something limit this behavior so it doesn't run over the explicitly requested recordings.

I feel the need to fight for this feature, since we're in a beta forum. So, the goal should not be to work around something that's a problem, or even just and inconvenience, when there's an opportunity to tweak the product to make things easier for more people. The beauty of software is supposed to be that takes care of the gotchas for us, reducing the number of things we have to do to make things work the way we want.

--Mike

[mlbdude]

Can someone confirm if you leave it on in full TV mode, are the shows that are recorded marked as Watched and scheduled for deletion?

If so what happens if several Favorites happen to come on that channel over night or if it is a single tuners system and Sage automatically changes channel? Those Favorites should be marked as watched as well and scheduled for deletion.

So how would Sage know if you are in front of the TV or not actually watching these shows?

[salsbst]

I'm all for a built-in solution for you and others... but I also want the option to keep it like it is for myself... thanks for putting more meat on the bones about why you want the feature, Llamas.

[falchulk]

mlbdude, I can say that in 1.4.1 leaving sage on full screen or windowed marked it as watched

[mlbdude]

If this is true then regardless of how the files are stored, displayed, or limited since Sage can't tell if you are sitting in front of the TV we will need to put Sage to Sleep.

It would seem a change to this is not as easy as it seems.

To bad Frey does not sell a camera that Sage can use to detect movement in front of the TV .

[Opus4]

Originally posted by mlbdude
So how would Sage know if you are in front of the TV or not actually watching these shows?

Wouldn't that be an add-on feature for the USB-UIRT? If you add the HPD module, it will detect whether anyone is in the room watchign the TV output.

Oh... HPD == Human Presence Detector

I think the user will have to be required to do _something_, even if that is to remember to return SageTV to a menu. Then, as I said before, SageTV should eventually stop recording or at least not set what is recorded as 'watched'. Oh, almost forgot: simply set an inactivity timer while in live tv mode... then the user doesn't have to do anything at all. Turn off the TV & walk away? SageTV would eventually return itself to the main menu & wimper softly to itself due to abandonment issues.

Do _I_ need this functionality? No... just trying to come up with a solution that works to make it more appealing to others. (Hey -- I'm selfish. The more people who buy it, the better my chances are of having this software to use years from now!)

- Andy

[salsbst]

Inactivity timer ain't gonna work... how active are you supposed to be while watching TV?

[Crashless]

the idea of limiting the 'live tv' buffer as been debated ad nausium many times on these boards. so I would find it hard to believe that the developers would refuse to try and implement this if it were possible.

if it is possible with the architecture that is in place, i'm sure it will be done.

[mlbdude]

One thing that can be done (even I could do it in Studio) is to on the Home screen put a timeout of like 30 minutes to close out the recorder. That may work. But again, the user is still doing something.

[Opus4]

Originally posted by salsbst
Inactivity timer ain't gonna work...

And just why not? I already suggested one option: at/near the end of a show, ask whether to continue. No input means no one is there. I can see your next complaint: Wait! I don't want this to show up after every show! Of course not. You could make various options here, among which would be: Set the time for the time out: 30 minutes? 2 hours? 4 hours? Never (turn time out off)?

how active are you supposed to be while watching TV?

I would imagine that if you can watch TV for more than an hour or 2 w/o something as simple as a pause, you can sit still much longer than I can. Besides, aren't you at least using ff to get through the commercials? I think there would usually be _some_ input.

Again, I'm not saying this has to be _the_ solution... just offering ideas.

- Andy

[Opus4]

Originally posted by mlbdude
One thing that can be done (even I could do it in Studio) is to on the Home screen put a timeout of like 30 minutes to close out the recorder. That may work. But again, the user is still doing something.

Great! And, yes, go ahead and make them do something... I can just see another complaint: But, whyyyy do I have to turn off my car when I park it in my garage??? It will be cold in the morning & I want it to be ready to go.

- Andy

[falchulk]

Hmm......I dont know. Maybe its becasue of my PC background that I dont leave things open. Its habit for me to hit the power button an let sage sleep because I am use to closing apps normally? It just seems normal to leave it at a menu rather then in live tv. This all might be more important to me if I did not use myhtpc. Then I would prefer to leave it at the sage menu. Then the timeout mlbdude mentioned would be great. If sage studio offers the ability to make sage do what myhtpc does then I will take advantage of this.

[Llamas]

If the current architecture does not support a generic live TV buffer that is not being saved as a specific show, then perhaps the route of tracking those files separately from the requested recordings would be easier. This way, a user could define a quota for live TV, whether that be 10GB or 100GB.

An inactivity timer prompt at the end of a show, if there has also been no input for a configured period of time, sounds like a good option. I'd be afraid of getting up between shows to get a drink, and coming back to find the show has started, and Sage has gone to sleep, though. Perhaps a delay after the prompt before going to sleep.

Andy, if you want to extend the analogy, think of this discussion paralleling the feature in many cars that turns off the headlights if you take the keys out of the ignition.

--Mike

[mlbdude]

What I am going to try and do is to have Sage close out the playing\recording show when the Sage screen saver kicks in. By default I have mine set to 5 minutes but that is user configurable. It will be user configurable to turn on this feature in the properties file as well.

I believe the screen saver only kicks in on menu's without any video windows. I can't remember if it does it with a preview window or not (I will confirm when I get home). I know it won't do it on the full screen TV window though so you will still have to back out.

However, based on the fact that your shows will all be marked Watched, you will always want to do this anyway regardless of time-shift buffer control.

If Jeff likes it (and it works) and seems usable I may be able to convince him to include it in the next release.

[Opus4]

Originally posted by Llamas
An inactivity timer prompt at the end of a show, if there has also been no input for a configured period of time, sounds like a good option. I'd be afraid of getting up between shows to get a drink, and coming back to find the show has started, and Sage has gone to sleep, though.

The way I envisioned it, it would only stop recording at the end of a show, not in the middle of one, and only if it had already been inactive for a long time. You would probably pause it if you got up to leave the room, so there's some activity to keep it going.

And, who says you can only leave the room between shows? It is a PVR... use PAUSE! That key is your friend!

Andy, if you want to extend the analogy, think of this discussion paralleling the feature in many cars that turns off the headlights if you take the keys out of the ignition.

Yeah, I know I was reaching on that one. But, you still have to take the keys out of the ignition, so it requires some action to be done by the user. The car doesn't simply shut off when you get out & turn on when you get in. (yet)

- Andy