Tivo's got one thing right...

[domc]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1222...ews_technology

$199 for software and TV tuner. $99 for just the Tivo software if you already have a tuner. Can't find out anything about HD though.

* merged 2 *

[stuckless]

...HTPC market on its head so its important for small companies like SageTV to be as innovative as they can

For me the most innovative thing that Sage has done, is to NOT put DRM into their product. Unfortunately, I think that we will see the day when Sage will have to do this. For now, they are a relatively small player, but as they get more exposure, then the content producers/providers will force Sage to DRM protect their recordings or face legal battles.

I'm sure that Tivo / Apple / M$ don't want to put DRM in their products (well maybe M$ does, but not Tivo) but they have to. Tivo has already had a few battles. So the best we can hope for is that Sage remains a niche service and doesn't get big enough to draw attention to itself.

I agree with Brent in that there is so much that can happen in this space, but unfortunately, as long as the content providers are controlling M$, Apple, Tivo, etc, we will only see the products that they want us to see.

Case in point.... I have a Bell HD PVR with a limited 30hrs HD programming. Bell TV execs heard the cries that that people want to be able to record more, archive recordings, etc... so they now allow you to hook up an external USB drive to the receiver. It will format the drive and you can copy your recording to the drive. But, those recordings can ONLY be watched on the same PVR on which it was recorded. So if I get a new PVR, then the archived recordings are toast. If my PVR dies... the recordings are gone.... and worst of all.... if I want to bring those recordings to my other Bell HD PVR, it will refuse to play them. This is a classic case of execs hearing the cries and believing that they are doing something useful when in fact, it's totally useless.... I hope sage never gets this sucessful and this messed up

[wayner]

Originally Posted by stuckless

For me the most innovative thing that Sage has done, is to NOT put DRM into their product.

That is one main point - the other is support for the HD-PVR which is a related topic as a likely reason for not supporting the HD-PVR by the more mainstream players is that it will annoy the powers that be in Hollywood. These are the only two reasons that have caused me to make the transition from MCE to Sage.

On MS's part the strange thing is that they haven't tried to stand up to the powers that be. Apple has done so to a certain extent which has led to the success of the iTunes service. MS should have the power to tell Hollywood to get stuffed if they wanted to but so far they haven't been willing to do so, even to a minor extent like disabling CGMS-A.

[jimwhite]

I hope we never see DRM come to Sage.... I went the dark side and used MCE for about 2 years, until certain commercials started triggering DRM lockouts in recorded shows from Fox news... was it DRM from the commercials or a vast left-wing conspiracy?

SAGE=UserFriendly in this case!

[jrog]

Originally Posted by stuckless

For me the most innovative thing that Sage has done, is to NOT put DRM into their product. Unfortunately, I think that we will see the day when Sage will have to do this.

This is a double-edged sword. First, I love the fact that it allows me to decide what to do with what I pay money for. If I record a show or movie from HBO, and I decide I want to back it up on a disc or whatever, I'm glad I can.

However, I like the idea that someday I'll have only one box, and I'll be able to access media from everywhere without headache, Hulu, Netflix, rentals like Amazon, Apple, as well as Cable... I think the only way than any of these eventualities will happen is under DRM enabled systems. I think the whole DRM thing is insane, with watermarking, they can track copyright violators...

For now, I use my AppleTV in tandem to access online purchased and rented content, and as such, I have 3 HD-100s and 3 AppleTVs in my house...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Brent

Things can change quickly - and if a strong company like Apple gets serious about it it could be interesting.

Well, Microsoft got pretty serious about it...

...so its important for small companies like SageTV to be as innovative as they can.

You know, I've been thinking SageTV for the ReadyNAS Pro would be sweet.

[stuckless]

For now, I use my AppleTV in tandem to access online purchased and rented content, and as such, I have 3 HD-100s and 3 AppleTVs in my house

You're fine until Apple decides to get out of the TV business and your hardware dies. Then you are left holding the bag with a bunch of Movies you can't watch. (and if you think that can't happen, see Yahoo getting out the music business, or Microsoft changing DRM schemes after spending millions to get people to buy into the first one, or the fact that content providers want to "turn off" the component video out when the pushed for so long as it being the HD solution)

I'd be fine with DRM if their was one DRM system to rule them all, and any hardware vendor could license it to build a compatible system. At least then, I could take my AppleTV movies and bring them to another device to play. But that's never going to happen. So we will be left with many DRM providers and lots of systems that can't talk to each other. At least if I buy a bluray disc or DVD, I can play it on any bluray/dvd player. If sony decides to stop selling bluray units, then I can count on LG to continue selling them cheap. DRM is a different beast. DRM is like pairing a Bluray disc to a bluray player and ONLY that combination can watch the movie, so when you're bluray player dies, no other player can play your bought movies. DRM is evil, but it's also a cash cow right now.... so it's not going away any time soon.

[jrog]

I agree with all your points, and I only buy TV episodes if something gets messed up, otherwise I wait for the DVD releases, and rip all my content with Handbrake, DRM free. I think DRM only has a place to enforce rental rules, and I'm fine with that, as the point of the online rental is instant convenience.

I have not, and will not buy download movies, unless I can get DVD quality and convenience for DVD price (should be less), or blu-ray quality at the same market value.

[stevech]

Apple- might do the corporate-speak "return to core businesses" due to their stock price falling almost 50% in the last couple of months.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by stevech

Apple- might do the corporate-speak "return to core businesses" due to their stock price falling almost 50% in the last couple of months.

Very funny - what is their "core" business? Selling a computer that has very little market share? They were very good at that before they invented the iPod

[mikejaner]

I personally don't see Apple releasing a new Apple TV with TV tuning capablilty. This would encroach on their market for selling shows and movies over iTunes. If you can record CSI or a movie from HBO with a tuner on AppleTV, why purchase it in the store. The only thing I see them doing is refreshing the hardware so it can do 1080p and maybe/hopefully run cooler.

[jrog]

I don't see them doing so either, but their biggest issue in selling more AppleTVs, and what everyone asks me, is can it record TV, or how do I watch my football games with it? Live news?

The market wants what the market wants... I think they might consider a live TV system that is complimented by the iTunes store, with rentals and purchases of shows that you missed.

I want simplicity. Less boxes, more functionality, common platforms for lots of applications, I don't understand how we got to where we are with dozens of different settop boxes devoted to single tasks. This is where Apple and Tivo tend to shine.

I mean, the hardware side has the lower margin. Take for example the Roku box, which strictly connects to Netflix... so ridiculous to have yet another box for that.

I have in my setup, xbox 360, hd-100, and AppleTV. I won't buy another device, unless it replaces on of those with the same and more functionality. This includes blu-ray.

[stuckless]

Take for example the Roku box, which strictly connects to Netflix... so ridiculous to have yet another box for that.

That's how I feel about AppleTV... it's just a box that ONLY connects to Apple. This is really no different than the Roku box that ONLY connects to Netflix, or a HD-100 that ONLY connects to SageTV. But at least with HD100+SageTV, the potential is there to connect to other locations, but the AppleTV or Roku.... there is no potential.

[jrog]

Originally Posted by stuckless

That's how I feel about AppleTV... it's just a box that ONLY connects to Apple.

Well, to a certain extent, but I also can access my 1.5TB iTunes Library with full integration. I'm in full control of that library. I only have to manage one library, and all of that media is available on any of my TVs or on my iPhone or iPod when I sync it up. It's the best solution I've come across for my Movie/Music collection, as I have archived over 600 movies and over 1200 individual TV Show episodes to be able to watch on my AppleTV or my iPhone.

Now, I know I can load those movies into Sage, and I even wrote scripts to export all the meta-data tags and load them as .my files, but attempting to browse the imported media brought my HD-100 to it's knees. I use 1000x1500 high res images for my videos, and that didn't help either. TV Show management was even further behind, so I just didn't spend the time to make it all work.

It all works wonderfully in the iTunes ecosystem.

To me, iTunes and AppleTVs is like a practical and affordable Kaleidascape system, and yes, it is it's own separate system, and that is annoying, but it works so much better than any other solution out there, that it's hard to ignore.

[stuckless]

Well, to a certain extent, but I also can access my 1.5TB iTunes Library with full integration.

I see your point, I just don't want steve to be in control of my stuff

I use 1000x1500 high res images for my videos

Just curious... I see many people talking about super hq images.... but given that the largest image that sage is going to display is the thumbnail, wouldn't make sense to rescale those images before sending them to sage? does sage rescale and cache the scaled image? and if so, i would think that the you'd only take the hit on the first time the thumbnails load.

[jrog]

Originally Posted by stuckless

but given that the largest image that sage is going to display is the thumbnail, wouldn't make sense to rescale those images before sending them to sage?

Well, one advantage was that I was able to set my screen saver to my Movie Library! So that was pretty sweet.

All my .m4v videos have the metadata embedded, including the artwork. This has several advantages, if I lose my system or my library files get corrupted, then reloading the files into iTunes can grab all that data. Secondly, if the tags were all supported, then Sage could grab that info as well when adding files to the Sage Library. Unfortunately, Sage doesn't grab all the tags at the moment. That's what I had to write the scripts to .my files.

I know, we'll get there... I wish I had the software know how to implement some of the functions I would like. As for the Sage interface, I'd mostly like to redesign the Recording list section. For one, I hate how it wraps around when you scroll to the bottom of the list, get rid of all the icons and tabs for making changes, and group all Movies recorded off TV into a single item, or even move them entirely to a Main menu item... Maybe the Malore menu is what I need to look at.

Just some ideas I have, but I'm not sure how I can get there from here. I do like the Default STV over SageMC though, so I'm not sure where I should go with it.

[jrog]

I loaded and tweaked Malore's option for the recorded shows list, and it addresses about 90% of my issues with usability. I like it a lot.

[stuckless]

I thought it was ironic that I ranted earlier in a post of DRM and Apple and why I despise supporting technologies are single vendor only, like iTunes, Tivo, etc, only to come across this article talking about Apple threatening to shut down itunes... Granted, take it with a grain of salt... but it could happen

[jrog]

Originally Posted by stuckless

I thought it was ironic that I ranted earlier in a post of DRM and Apple and why I despise supporting technologies are single vendor only, like iTunes, Tivo, etc, only to come across this article talking about Apple threatening to shut down itunes... Granted, take it with a grain of salt... but it could happen

Of course, it can happen... it totally sucks!

But I think this is more likely that Apple is flexing their muscles. They know what it's takes to make this business successful, and much like the App store is a place for Developers to directly market and sell their product to the consumer, I believe Apple will be making a major push in the next few years to cut out the record labels, and allow the Artists to market and sell their product directly to the consumer. Win-win for those that choose to go that route. This is just my speculation, of course.