Question about possible functionality of SageTV

[SGA]

Hello,
I'm currenlty looking into building a combined machine both for HTPC usage and personal usage (minor gaming if at all, mostly office/internet usage)

To do that I need to have 2 different audio outputs available.
One for the PC usage for personal use, and the other to connect to the Home theater surround system.

The audio outputs have to be completely independent and run simultaneously.

My question is, can SageTV support such a funcionality?

Can I define the sound card that is used to output the audio?

You can assume I have 2 independent working sound cards in my system.

This is a crucial consideration for me in choosing my HTPC software.

Thanks for any assistance you may provide.

[stanger89]

Yes, you can pick which renderer Sage uses for audio.

The problem you may/will run into is with video and control. You don't say how that's going to be set up, but if you're wanting Sage to be run on a secondary display and controlled independently (without being affected by your other tasks) you could run into problems. The most likely one is that video often isn't happy on secondary monitors.

[GKusnick]

I'd suggest looking at a SageTV HD Extender (STX-HD100) as a way of offloading media playback from your PC. You can configure the SageTV server software to run as a service, invisibly in the background, where it won't interfere much with your other uses of the PC.

[SGA]

Thanks for the reply.
I'm still researching most of the subject, solving the problems as I come across them.

My idea was to get a 790GX chipset AM2 motherboard complete with a Phenom AMD processor.

The 790GX has native support for HDMI/DVI and SPDIF, which i was hoping on putting to use.

most of the output video processing is going to be on the TV tuner I'm going to get (still researching that) and on the video card itself,
Obviously I'll have a different Video card for the PC monitor.

I'm hoping that a quad core solution should provide me with the necessary resources for multithreaded encoding/decoding without compromising parallel usability or video/audio quality.

Am I mistaken in that assumption?

[stanger89]

Horsepower really isn't the problem, it's the way Windows/Display Drivers/Video renderers are setup. I don't know how a two video cards affects that, and I don't know if the 790 will allow it's GPU to operate with another video card installed.

[SGA]

There's no problem using 2 video cards in 1 system based on my experience.

Could you explain to somewhat more detail the problem you are referring to and the cause so I can understand if it might affect the design I'm building?

in addition, is there a way to force SageTV to go full screen on a secondary display?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by SGA

There's no problem using 2 video cards in 1 system based on my experience.

I understand that, but some motherboards disable their onboard video when you put a video card in the PCIe X16 slot. The other part I'm not sure of is if two video cards makes any difference with respect to the issues of running video on a secondary display.

Could you explain to somewhat more detail the problem you are referring to and the cause so I can understand if it might affect the design I'm building?

It can vary, from getting no video at all, to getting juttery video, it's kind of hard to predict. Overlay usually doesn't work on the secondary display, and VMR9 often doesn't work as well as it could/should.

in addition, is there a way to force SageTV to go full screen on a secondary display?

Just set it to fullscreen while it's window in on the secondary display.

[SGA]

first of all, I've researched the subject of the chipset supporting multiple video cards. I'm safe in that aspect.

What I don't understand is what causes the problems you describe.
Is it sending the video to a secondary display causing all of these problems?

You said you don't know if having 2 video cards affects this.
So I assume this occurred with a Single video card supporting 2 independent displays. Is that correct?

also, I'm not yet familiar with the complete technical jargon. Can you point me to an explanation about overlay and VMR9 to know what they are and what the difference between them is?

Thanks for your help.

[GKusnick]

VMR9 uses DirectX calls to paint the video directly into the primary display buffer. This allows alpha blending and other DX effects to work normally.

Overlay renders video into a dedicated hardware buffer on the graphics card that's then merged with the primary display image during scan conversion. This requires less graphics horsepower but gives much more limited blending effects.

That said, I'm still not clear on why it's so important to shoehorn all these functions into one box. For the money you'd spend on high-end CPUs and graphics cards, you could get an HD Extender and avoid the whole dual-use, dual-display issue entirely. You'd still be able to watch TV on your PC as a foreground activity if you wanted to; you just wouldn't have to deal with video playback on the PC while you're trying to do some other foreground task with it, since the extender would take care of driving your TV.

[Opus4]

In my office, I use SageTV on a secondary monitor all the time.

What OS are you using? In XP, overlay will almost always work on a secondary monitor these days. If it doesn't, it probably means you need to change the video decoder because there may still be some decoders that haven't added that support. Overlay worked on my secondary monitor even back in 2003 when I first started using SageTV (and everyone told me overlay wasn't actually working then too, but it was). I think some newer video cards emulate overlay, but I don't remember those details or whether it affects playback.

XP only emulates DirectX on a secondary display, at least that is true for the secondary monitor of a single video card. So it has to use cpu power to do what the video card would do on the primary monitor. If using XP, you could set the SageTV display to be the primary one if you want to use VMR9, but then your general monitor won't be much good for games... though most people, inlcuding me, will suggest not using your SageTV server for games in the first place.

Unless you really need to PC to output to the TV, the HD extender is a better playback device... the only problem is that they aren't in stock right now.

- Andy

[SGA]

Thanks for the input.

I'm aware of the limitations. There's just one thing all you guys (and girls if there are any) are missing in the puzzle:
HD extender isn't offered for sale where I live.

I'm planning on getting a strong machine anyways. So adding 3 additional cards (TV, Video, Sound) seems like a good compromise to have the flexibility of a PC handling all tv recording/playback.
I'm not a gamer, and I'm obviously not planning on playing big heavy games while watching/recording TV.

Besides, broadcasting system here is PAL and I don't want to start messing with conversions.

[reggie14]

SGA-

I agree with everyone else that suggested that you wait and get an HD extender and avoid trying to make your PC serve double duty. Video playback is always a little iffy on secondary monitors, and that's especially true with SageTV. I've been running Sage with dual monitors for a while. It worked OK under WinXP when I used overlay, except that hardware acceleration didn't work. When I started playing with high-definition TV that gave me some problems. But, as other people pointed out, VMR9 wouldn't work on the secondary display under WinXP, so there was really nothing I could do. Vista actually solves that problem. VMR9 works perfectly on both the primary and secondary displays, but then you have to deal with the problems related to Vista. For example, ATI's Vista drivers have a problem running on systems with dual monitors. ATI has been able to reproduce this bug, but because it happens randomly they can't figure out how to fix it.

In your specific case, I would worry about what would happen with video playback if you were doing something like gaming on the primary display. I'm guessing it wouldn't work well.

Also, if you are going to do this, against our advice, you might run into a problem with the display aspect ratios. Sage assumes you're going to be running it on a single display. If you have dual monitors, with one being a 4:3 (or 5:4) display and the other a 16:9 (or 16:10), you're going to have problems. GKusnick wrote a nice plugin to fix that though. We can give you more information about that if you run into that problem.

But again, I think you'll save yourself a lot of time, and probably some money too, by just buying an HD extender.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by SGA

There's just one thing all you guys (and girls if there are any) are missing in the puzzle:
HD extender isn't offered for sale where I live.

Where are you located? I don't think you mentioned that.

When they are in stock, SageTV ships the HD extenders outside the US. And, they can be used with PAL systems.

- Andy

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by SGA

I'm aware of the limitations. There's just one thing all you guys (and girls if there are any) are missing in the puzzle:
HD extender isn't offered for sale where I live.

Ahh, well that explains that. I still think you ought to consider trying to get a separate system for your TV. It might cost you a bit more money, but it would certainly save you time and headaches.

[SGA]

Hi.
It doesn't really matter where I live. it's just a nice small hole where satellite broadcasting is considered relatively new and HD content is so rare you have like 5 channels (total) and they charge you as if you're getting 500.

buying electronics from abroad will probably take a lot more of my time and money due to shipping costs, customs handling etc.
So I'm better off spending some time troubleshooting a DIY machine.

regarding another machine to handle content: I considered it, but my current place is too small for even an additional HTPC. Already my WORK machine is going to be very close to the TV which is far from ideal as you may guess...

and as I said, gaming is not a problem. My usual gaming involves small freeware flash games at the most part every now and then.
I use the PC more as a work instrument than a gaming platform.

As for the aspect ratio, that's important to know. If everything goes as planned, I'll probably ask about it when/if relevant.

Again, I appreciate your input.
I'm much more aware to various potential risks now. Especially regarding XP/Vista.
What about MAC OS? any known issues there? (asking for general knowledge)

[reggie14]

I want to make sure you're going into this with realistic expectations about how it's going to work. I think you should have limited expectations about using your computer for other purposes while using it to watch TV. You'll probably be able to do other things with reasonable success, but don't expect it to be problem-free.

Since you're talking about a dual-monitor setup, I would actually recommend runnning Windows Vista. Make sure you turn the UAC stuff off. Dual monitor setups are probably the only time when I would recommend running Vista.

As for hardware, get a decent motherboard without video support (but with audio support), and a good video card. Most good video cards out there include dual monitor support. Many newer ones will output via HDMI (with an adapter), and if you look carefully enough you'll find some that will output audio over HDMI too. I think you should stay away from ATI cards. As I said, a lot of people, including the driver guys at ATI, have problems with ATI cards in Vista running dual monitors. I'm not saying nvidia is problem-free under Vista either, but at least you wouldn't be running a setup with a known problem.

Having two distinct audio outputs seems unnecessary. If your place is small anyone, it's all going to be jumbled together anyway. I'm not really sure how audio over HDMI works. You might be able to get only Sage outputting to that without buying anything special. So, I wouldn't recommend buying an audio card to go along with the audio functionality on the motherboard. They're cheap though, so maybe you'll want to buy it with everything else just so you have it in case you do need it.

I have no experience with Macs and Sage, so I can't help you there.

[SGA]

Hi reggie14,

I've read your post and took it under consideration. One thing I don't agree with you though is with the sound card.

cause not all the time the TV is going to be on. and when it isn't, I don't want to need to switch cables to change my audio output speakers.
When the TV is on, I can use a headset with no serious problems which solves that issue.