DishNetwork User looking at SageTV - help?

[jgodfrey]

Hi All,

I've been lurking around here for a few days, but haven't yet gotten my head around what I really need to make the move to SageTV. Currently, I'm a DishNetwork customer and will remain so, as I don't have cable access in my area.

I have a DishNetwork 625 dual-tuner DVR. It's a single set-top box with two tuners, so I can watch and/or record 2 separate shows on two separate tv's.

I'm not overly happy with the Dish DVR system, and would really love some of the additional functionality afforded by SageTV (network, videos, pics, etc)...

So, I'd like to replace my Dish DVR with a SageTV setup, but want to retain the ability to watch/record multiple shows. I assume that just means I need multiple tuner cards, right?

Regarding the Dish receiver - would I just keep that receiver, but not use it's DVR capabilities anymore, or could I "downgrade" to a "basic" (non-DVR) Dish receiver?

What about HD? Do I need an HD satellite receiver from Dish or do I only need an HD tuner card in my PC?

Sorry for all the questions, but much of this is new to me...

Thanks for any info, advice, or pointers to additional reading.

Jeff

[jerryt]

Two routes that I know of are; using single HD receivers (VIP211 not 211K) connected to Sage by way of either Hauppauge's HD PVR or NextComm's R5000 HD device. Note the NextComm device will not work on a VIP211K, only the VIP211.

Some Pro's and Con's
HD-PVR
Pro- Cheaper solution. Portable between boxes. Records CC if on screen.
Con- Audio sync problems. IR blaster does not work (for me). Required USB-UIRT (again for me). Units run hot.

R5000 HD
Pro- Records the actual stream. Hard wired channel changing.
Con- More expensive. Have to buy the hardware and then the software to interface with Sage. Normally mounted inside receiver, so it is not portable between receivers.
Notes- Does not record any of the on screen overlays; CC, Channel information, etc...

[paulbeers]

Here is my setup:

1 VIP211 for HD connected to an HDPVR
2 Dish311's for SD connected to a PVR500 (dual SD tuner)
I use a USB-UIRT to control all 3 boxes.

[sic0048]

I am a Dishnetwork subscriber and use a single VIP211k and Hauppauge HD-DVR to record HD stuff. Two things to consider IMHO. I already wish I had two receivers so I could record from one and watch another (or record two shows at once). Coming from a box that already allows his (your current dual tuner DVR), this is going to be a requirement IMHO. Since you are already use to two tuners, it will be frustrating to "downgrade" to just one tuner.

So you will need to get two single tuners and get rid of the DVR. The ongoing price will be about the same here - give up the $7-8 monthly DVR fee, but pay a $5 2nd receiver fee. Hopefully Dish will work with you and allow you to swap boxes (ie 1 dual tuner DVR for 2 single tuners with no money out of pocket).

But you will need 2 HD-PVRs to do this. They are selling for about $200 to $225 each right now, and you'll need a Sage software license which is $50 when bought as a package deal from Sage (so $275 for HD-PVR and Sage license).

So to sum it up - it will cost about the same amount monthly, but take a $400-500 initial investment for 2 HD-PVRs with a Sage license assuming you already have a computer capable of acting as a HTPC, or $600-700 investment for 2 HD-PVRs, the Sage license, and a HD-100 Sage extender if your current computer isn't going to be strong enough to act as a HTPC.

EDIT - I've taken this post with the view that you are looking or HD recordings. I have one of the HD only packages, so I tend to forget about SD. Paulbeers set up would be less expensive initially and allow you to record or watch a single HD stream and 2 SD streams at the same time.

[jgodfrey]

To all who have replied so far...

Thanks for the input - that gives me lots more to research, but I'm still confused on (at least) one point...

It seems that I need to employ some other device for DVR recording (either the Hauppauge device or the NextComm device). I assume that means my Sage Server system won't actually be used for recording?

Assuming I understand, and I would indeed be recording to some other device (not a generic PC), are all of the advertised Sage features still available to me, or am I now bound to the DVR functions of the chosen device?

I'm sure I'll have any number of follow-up questions, but I first need to get this point clear in my head...

Thanks for any additional input.

Jeff

[jerryt]

Originally Posted by jgodfrey

It seems that I need to employ some other device for DVR recording (either the Hauppauge device or the NextComm device). I assume that means my Sage Server system won't actually be used for recording?

No, the Hauppauge device or the NextComm device is what connects your STB into Sage Server software. Both devices have viewing software, but their hardware is what is needed to connect to Sage's software.

[PGPfan]

Sage will be recording. All that the 'tuners' do is convert the incoming signal into a format that can be recorded. You get all the Sage features, etc.

[jgodfrey]

All,

Thanks - this is now making more sense. Especially after studying the respective web pages of the mentioned devices. I've got some more research to do, then I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.

Again - thanks.

Jeff

[jgodfrey]

Another question...

Can I use *any* Dish receiver, provided that I connect it the proper tuning device - depending on whether it's SD or HD?

For instance, could I use either of the following HD receivers connected to either the HD-PVR or the R5000?

- ViP 211k (211 seems to be discontinued?). I notice that jerryt specifically said *not* 211k in his response, but sic0048 uses the 211k.
- ViP 222 Dual receiver (I assume this would require 2 HD-PVR's or 2 R5000's?)

And, could I use any of the following SD receivers connected to the appropriate Win-TV-XXX device?

- 311 single SD receiver
- 322 dual SD receiver (again, I assume 2 appropriate Win-TV devices?)

BTW, which Win-TV-XXX device is most recommended in this situation?

Thanks,

Jeff

[jerryt]

The HD PVR is pretty universal and I believe would accept all those recievers. (Edit, See PaulBeer's warning about RF remotes in post 14 below)

However the R5000 HD is limited to just a couple of receivers like the 211 and 622. See NextComm's website for all the models.

[briands]

Jeff, See this thread to get a handle on how the system interacts.

[sic0048]

Right,

The HD-PVR basically will record ANY component output. Cable box, satellite reciever, BlueRay DVD player, etc. It is a small box that has an component input that comes from the output of the STB. It is connected to the computer via a USB cord. The Sage software will recognize the HD-PVR as a recording device and use it to record the component stream. It also comes wih a IR emitter that you hook up so that Sage will change the channel on the STB to what ever you want to actually record. Remember, the HD-PVR simply records the component stream, so you have to use the STB channel selector to make sure you are tuning to the correct channel and sending the correct show out via component.

The R5000 is a modification done to an exisiting satellite/cable box. So there is no "additional" hardware. Rather the original box is modified to provide a USB connection to the computer. Again, the computer will recognize the box as a tuner and capture the information over the USB line. It will change the channel over the USB cord however, so there is no additional IR emitter that needs to be set up. The downside to the R5000 is the expense. They are generally much more expensive than the HD-PVRs and you either have to send in your box to have it modified and sent back to you, or you have to buy a DIY kit and try to make the modification to the box yourself. This means opening up the box and adding components to the inside.

The R5000 will also provide a slightly better quality recording because it is taking the original digital data and sending it digitally to the computer over the USB cord. In the HD-PVR setup, the SB takes the digital data and converts it to component video which is an analog stream. The HD-PVR takes this analog stream and converts it back into a digital stream to send to the computer over the USB line, but there is some loss in this digital to analog to digital conversion (however it is still an extremely impressive picture and the loss with the HD-PVR is minimal to say the least).

So to sum up again... Sage is just the software that ties everything together. You still need some sort of capture device like the HD-PVR, R5000, or any of the other numerous TV tuners. You also need a storage device (ie lots of harddrive space) and you need some sort of media player to play back the videos. You can accomplish this by using the computer itself or by buying an "extender" which is network device that will play the videos on the hardware, rather than using the computer software players to play it.

[Clift]

Another thing:

I noticed you said this:

- ViP 222 Dual receiver (I assume this would require 2 HD-PVR's or 2 R5000's?)

while you could gett he signal fromt his, if you are using an hauupauge HD PVR then the fact that this box has dual tuner will not work with 2 HD PVR's. To get that you need two seperate recievers.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by jgodfrey

Another question...

Can I use *any* Dish receiver, provided that I connect it the proper tuning device - depending on whether it's SD or HD?

For instance, could I use either of the following HD receivers connected to either the HD-PVR or the R5000?

- ViP 211k (211 seems to be discontinued?). I notice that jerryt specifically said *not* 211k in his response, but sic0048 uses the 211k.
- ViP 222 Dual receiver (I assume this would require 2 HD-PVR's or 2 R5000's?)

And, could I use any of the following SD receivers connected to the appropriate Win-TV-XXX device?

- 311 single SD receiver
- 322 dual SD receiver (again, I assume 2 appropriate Win-TV devices?)

BTW, which Win-TV-XXX device is most recommended in this situation?

Thanks,

Jeff

FYI: You CAN'T use the dual receivers for Sage. The dual receivers use an RF remote to control the second tuner and there is no way to currently change the channel with a pc device. Therefore you are limited to only the VIP211 and the 311.....Just forewarning.

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

FYI: You CAN'T use the dual receivers for Sage. The dual receivers use an RF remote to control the second tuner and there is no way to currently change the channel with a pc device. Therefore you are limited to only the VIP211 and the 311.....Just forewarning.

Just wanted to say that this is not a Sage issue, you can't use both the tuners of the dual tuner boxes with ANY pvr applications. The problem lies with being able to control the tuner (tell it what channel to be on, etc.) and ONLY 'ir' based STB's will work.

-PGPfan

[MattHelm]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

FYI: You CAN'T use the dual receivers for Sage. The dual receivers use an RF remote to control the second tuner and there is no way to currently change the channel with a pc device. Therefore you are limited to only the VIP211 and the 311.....Just forewarning.

I glad you brought this up. Does anyone out there know what chip they use to control the keyboards on these remotes? I think I could make a small board that would then be wired into a spare remote, and could control it. We'd need someone to write a driver, but then all these RF second receivers could be used!!!

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by MattHelm

I glad you brought this up. Does anyone out there know what chip they use to control the keyboards on these remotes? I think I could make a small board that would then be wired into a spare remote, and could control it. We'd need someone to write a driver, but then all these RF second receivers could be used!!!

Each board would have to be tailored to the remote and you would have to write a program that could interact with the EXETUNER in Sage to actually make this work. Let us know how it goes......

[jgodfrey]

Originally Posted by briands

Jeff, See this thread to get a handle on how the system interacts.

Excellent link - thanks! Some of those diagrams should be helpful...

Jeff

[jgodfrey]

@sic0048 - thanks for a great summary of the equipment in question.

@Clift and paulbeers - thanks for the heads-up on the dual-tuner issue. That's an important point...

Jeff

[jgodfrey]

Is this move (switching from DishNetwork DVR equipment to a SageTV setup) something I should attempt to hide from DishNetwork? More specifically, is there anything in Dish's fine-print that would cause me heartburn in trying to go this route?

Since others here have already done this, I assume the answer is "no", but thought I'd ask...

Thanks,

Jeff